Opinion: Lumia Devices WILL get WP8/Apollo

| April 21, 2012 | 128 Replies

I honestly wasn’t planning on posting this here as it has no basis and is just speculations which is why I wrote it up on my side-project blog; but once I saw that Jay posted a bunch of rumors together I decided to hell with it let’s join in on the fun.

The whole basis of my assumption relies on one basic factor: “BT transfer”. Currently Bluetooth on WP 7.5 devices is almost useless beyond headset/car pairing and pairing to PC (not even sure if that’s possible); so why on earth would Nokia bother implementing NFC into the Lumia 610?

Let’s dig a little deeper, the current build of WP doesn’t even support NFC (which was the excuse used when Nokia was asked why it was excluded from the lumia 800); so why would you put something in a device if you can’t even use it? Short answer- because it will soon enough. Recently Stephen Elop went on record saying that one of the features to come along with WP8 is the ability to send V-Cards via BT (a perfect use of NFC- “tap to send V-Card”). At this point I’d like to point out that the C7 also had an NFC chip that was disabled until Symbian Anna supported it; so it wouldn’t be the first time that Nokia implemented technology that isn’t fully supported in a device with plans to activate/support it in a future update.

The last piece of “evidence” is the interesting timing of the NFC-Lumia announcement; if your going to make a modified version of a device shouldn’t you wait till the first version hit’s the stores at least?? Further more why not announce it at MWC which was less than a month before the 610 NFC announcement (which was also surprisingly pretty quiet). My thought on the matter is that they had a NFC 610 up and running but weren’t sure if it would run Apollo/WP8 but once they got the thumbs up from MSFT that it could support it (maybe there were questions about the lower RAM capabilities? or possibly MSFT had’t given them the complete requirements for WP8?) either way it does deserve the question to be asked, could it be that the 610 can run WP8.

Also just a reminder NFC support was one of the “leaked” features of WP8:

Support for microSD cards is also added, along with NFC support. The latter will work either via NFC built inside a smartphone or via NFC enabled SIM cards.- VIA

NFC and Wallet. Windows Phone 8 will allow users to securely pay and share via NFC and manage an integrated Wallet experience-VIA

And if the 610 can really run Apollo then by default that should mean that all other Lumia phones should run it too (considering that the 610 is the only one that’s under-powered).

Of course this little tweet just helps strengthen my case:


Time to drop the biggest effin’  bomb: Nokia & Microsoft are testing a build of Apollo on the Lumia 610. Not ‘performant’ enough. Yet.

Well of course I might be crazy or maybe it’s all the studying getting to me but I’m currently inclined to think that all 2nd gen WP devices will get the thumbs up to apollo. Your Thoughts?

Go ahead and check out my original post here: http://bit.ly/HYpkgw


Category: Nokia, Symbian, Windows Phone

About the Author ()

Hey, my name's Ali- Currently a fifth (and final) year Dental Student from Chicago; studying in Jordan. I love all sorts of gadgets almost as much as I love my cookies! Be sure to follow my Twitter handle @AliQudsi and Subcribe to my Youtube for the latest videos - no pressure. Thanks.

Comments (128)

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  1. meh says:

    For once I agree with Eldar, most people wont care do they get apollo update or not.

    • Jill says:

      But the blogosphere in the wild out there do care about it .. which indirectly means the people visiting those blogs .. which indirectly means the people they are in touch with .. which indirectly means the fans of android & iOS .. which indirectly means all the haters of windows phone out there !

    • JudaZuk says:

      I prefer to agree with most people, and don’t care about anything Eldar makes up anymore

      Perez Hilton is more relevant then Eldar ‘the liar’ Mutazin

      • Arun says:

        Eldar lost his credibility long ago. forget him. I’m worried about wp8 though. If they really want to kill symbian, and make WP their prime os, it MUST have
        -mass storage mode,
        -bluetooth file transfer,
        -usb host,
        -codec support and full hd video playback
        -proper file management,
        -FULL multitasking support.

        For gods sake, most of these things existed and worked pretty well in windows mobile 6.5… why did they remove them? “less is more” ? simply careless.. I really hope MS makes things better with Apollo.

        • migo says:

          How stable was Windows Mobile 6.5? It didn’t crash as much as Symbian, but it still would crash. Windows Phone doesn’t crash at all, just individual apps sometimes crash.

          I don’t care if the next version gets all of it, or just some of it. A gradual addition of features and tweaks is fine, it doesn’t need to get a whole load dumped on it. If it gets all the features but loses the stability then it’s practically no different from Android.

          • dansus says:

            That was in the days of slow processors and small ram, different world now.

            • migo says:

              Android crashes the same way. It’s not just the CPU, although the RAM is a factor when you have real multitasking.

          • keizka says:

            You •can• get wp to crash, it just requires very interesting conditions for it to happen (has happened occasionally happened to me on LG E900)

    • Saul says:

      LOL Eldar….
      It’s funny that many people still think he’s credible or even competent technically.
      But yes he is more-or-less right in this instance…
      There’s no doubt it’ll have an impact if it doesn’t come to older devices.
      But I doubt it’d be huge blow to MS/Nok’s LT plans…

  2. Prashant says:

    Not a promising theory bt transfers and nfc support cud also come in tango,
    if there cud be 500 plus improvements and features in mango then tango cud also go for 200 plus improvements and features.

  3. incognito says:

    Well, everything is a speculation at this point, but from the times I closely followed the Microsoft world (and I still do, as much as I can handle the community mentality *whistle*), Paul Thurrott had quite credible sources and far more hits than misses, so when he says that he *knows for a fact* – without leaving a single escape window from that claim – I kind of tend to believe him.

    MS_nerd, has far more misses than hits, at least based on what the Microsoft-oriented community claims – I haven’t followed him so I can’t make my own mind on his credibility.

    All that plus the deafening silence from Microsoft in my mind sets the probability of WP8 not appearing on the existing devices in high ninety percentages.

    Still, what I’ve heard from my own ‘sources’ – Apollo either isn’t WP8, or WP8 isn’t what the blogosphere made out of it – it might be an upgrade quite the same kind of Mango, in which case the upgradeability of current devices should be granted.

    So, to reiterate my thoughts – if the next major version is a wholesome switch from WinCE to MinWin – I’m almost 100% sure the current devices won’t be updated. If it isn’t, I’m confident the current devices will get updates, at least partial.

    • Sergio says:

      Actually Paul hasn’t been really accurate concerning WP stuff…

      • incognito says:

        Apart from the possible Mango delay (where he said on multiple occasions that it is just a possibility) he didn’t really state anything wrong. Certainly nothing with certainty as with his latest post on WP8 updates.

    • Mark says:

      Agree. It’s more likely to be a hybrid build incorporating the features in WP8 that the current platform can support.

    • Janne says:

      I think incognitos thoughts on this sound very plausible. I appreciate them.

  4. Guest says:

    I don’t think current phones will get apollo.
    Apollo will use the nt kernel and should requare heavier hardware.
    The 610 will use an nfc stack developed by nokia not an official microsoft WP nfc stack.
    The evegalist that made the statement that all phones will get apollo have oficially redrawed that statement.
    I think that it’s better to asume that current WP phones won’t get apollo until Microsoft officially states otherwise.
    All Microsoft has ever stated is that current WP applications will work on apollo, they even never said that apollo apps will work on WP7.5.
    So there is no reson to even asume that current lumia phones will ever get apollo.

  5. dss says:

    The only way to approach this is to get the 808 or the N9, and then wait for the drama to unfold. There is no reason to buy a WP7 device right now, they are missing a lot of functionality, and you have no idea if you are going to get wp8.. that is if you care about any of the missing functionality from Wp7, it seems that a lot of people here in the US don’t :)

  6. AM says:

    Sorry, not gonna happen. Heard from a very trusted source in Espoo.

  7. Zipa says:

    I’m not sure that I follow your logic. The Lumia 610NFC has a custom made-by-nokia NFC stack that is bolted on the WP7.5 Refresh comms stack. I don’t see how that would imply that it is upgradeable to WP8?

  8. Ebon & Unicorn N9s says:

    BT & NFC can be done in a feature update for the current WP devices.. No need to for the entire Apollo\WP8 release..

  9. ummNo says:

    Bs i say. Nokia knew from the beginning what wp8 will be and what it wont be. Nokia is betting (and always was) everything on wp8 NOT on wp7.5. I bet that it was MS that tequired Nokia to start their support from wp7.5.

    • migo says:

      Not likely, Nokia just needed to get going on it as fast as possible.

      • mdev says:

        Wrong too. Elop and MS needed Nokia to kill everything and focus on WP as soon as possible. Nokia “needed” this as much as I need cancer.

        • migo says:

          Symbian was cancer. It needed to be killed as fast as possible. It needed to be killed years ago. It’s good Elop did that. If OPK had done it, and hadn’t killed Maemo by merging it with Moblin to make the disaster that was MeeGo, then Maemo would have been a viable replacement for Symbian.

          • yasu says:

            The uninterrupted stream of bad financial news that hit Nokia since the very day WP was announced at Nokia would agree with mdev.

          • mdev says:

            To continue to use this analogy, let’s assume that you are right and Symbian was a lung cancer. So Elop decided that Nokia can live without lungs until Microsoft learns how to breathe without lungs and teaches Nokia how to do it.

  10. dani2xll says:

    I did write this yesterday for Ali’s site but for some reason I can’t post there. I am sure he has banned his biggest fan from posting :-) So I will post it here. Hopefully, it still applies.

    Nokia has been quick to squash certain rumours or to clarify things of late, but they have been particularly silent about WP8 for present Lumia devices. It is very unlikely that they do not know whether it is a viable thing for the present device and so it sends ripples through the industry by its ongoing silence.

    Yes, I am aware that normally when you buy a phone, for example HTC or iPhone, that you are not asking whether you will get the next update as its known that for quite an extensive time, this is available.

    But by Nokia records, people are familiar with the old method of symbian devices, with a new handset arriving three months later with a new feature pack and it not being available for your device which is a few months old or the variants in devices of the media range and non media range which were just a difference of software which most geeks managed to overcome. Then followed the Maemo and now the Meego and the ‘burning’ of symbian.

    All these things do not install confidence in customers and perhaps play a part as to why Nokia is in the position it is in at the moment.

    But to move forward, they need to not make the mistakes of the past. It would be a dire situation if they were to lose a potential growth market in America because of WP8.

    I do hope that WP8 does come to us Lumia owners.

    When I buy the Nokia 808 PureView, I know it is a ‘dead’ device in terms of os but as it is not my major phone, nor am I buying it for its os purposes it is not so much of a dilemma.

    But for someone who buys a Lumia as his or her number one smartphone they need to know that they are not buying an os with restriction and without a decent shelf-life.

    • Aliqudsi says:

      Dammit you seem to have found a way past my filters-

      Regardless I’ll have to respond :D

      Your 100& right about both points, the first case being that rather than squash/deny the rumors Nokia India sort of confirmed them on twitter (Can’t be bothered to find the tweet but I’m sure you’ve seen it).

      The second point is as you said if I’m going to choose the Lumia over the N9 or the 808 it’s because it has a Future and I expect it to have one else the whole new strategy has no point; so I actually think updates or at least continued support is a customers right rather than an optional generosity from the phone maker. (At the very least even if they DONT get apollo at least some sort of constant support to keep them relevant- like Belle & it’s feature packs on symbian but without the huge time period).

      • capedonut says:

        Apparently the next gen low end wp8 handsets will be more powerful and cheaper than the 800′s and 900′s of today, else it would make no sense with the assumed updating policy

      • Hary says:

        Ali, I think your assumption may be flawed here. It’s a good guess, but based on available information, it doesn’t make sense.

        I can’t find the article about 610NFC, but I read earlier that the NFC software has been made by Nokia and some other third-party company since MS hasn’t included that feature in Mango&Tango.
        There was a quote from the third-party company implying that they had to write the software to overcome MS’s shortcoming in current OS.

        So, I don’t think 610 NFC is related to WP8/Apollo.
        I will try to find that article.

      • Hary says:

        Ok,found the article. It’s InsideSecure that has provided the NFC tech for 610. I bet, they couldn’t do it for L800/900 since those were already in production before they could have worked out the NFC details. Hence 610 is getting it and not 800/900.


    • lordstar says:

      With 808 pureview i believe you’ll be getting 2 more updates.. Belle fp2 and possibly Nokia Carla. So i guess there will still be improvements to come your way should you decide to get the device.

      Nokia should clarify things soon with apollo and current lumia devices.

  11. npo4 says:

    It makes sense that there will be an Apollo, or at least some sort of Apollo lite on the 610.

    I’m personally waiting for the WP8 Lumia’s to come out before upgrading, as WP8 will support much more advanced hardware, so hopefully we can see faster processors and higher screen resolutions.

  12. kan says:

    SD -card support like removable battery is way over rated. Bump up the memory it’s cheap.

    BT transfer is more useful but not for sharing data.

    Better codec support for vidoes.

    Break the link with zune desktop.

    If as it seems WP8 Phone is built on a new kernel upgrading phones on WP7 is not straightforward. Can Zune even handle this?

    If there is an upgrade path I think the best way would be to do it via a one time self containted package. Then a new version of Zune to work with WP8.

    When you move to a total new codebase best to leave all links to the old one.

    • migo says:

      I agree on the SD card. It’s not that big of a deal.

      I expect BT features will slowly get expanded, file transfer might be important in some regions though.

      Yeah, I’m not sure the odds of that happening. I think MS might want to keep pushing .wma and .wmv formats.

      Oh please let this happen, probably possible with the MinWin kernel as Windows handles its own updates.

  13. ejvictor says:

    More bad news for Microsoft –Nokia

    Lumia Dead end devices!

    Thurrott forced a contact with Microsoft to reveal this info and has three reasons why it won’t be happening. First, the economics aren’t worth it. The current Windows Phone ecosystem is pretty small, and will probably have fewer than 20 million handsets sold by the time Windows Phone 8 is planned to launch.


    • mdev says:

      These reasons are more indicative of the level of MS “commitment” to its current customers than anython else. Samsung has bada as its pet project and it still made sure that the very different bada 2.0 run on all old devices (except the ones with 300 MHz CPU) despite having sales just 2 times that of WP as numbers and probably no more than 50% more as money (bada ASP is lower).

      WP is the only mobile effort of Microsoft and it should have been much more committed to it than Samsung is to bada. But this is MS for you.

  14. s2korpio says:

    I dont think the non-tech savvy population would care if they ever got the update or not. Seriously, I dont think EVERY iPhone user got giddy with joy when their 3GS got iOS 5.

    Same goes with current Lumia owners. The user experience of Windows Phone is already the best among others, I dont think they’ll complain much if they knew about Windows Phone 8 (does anyone outside the tech scene even KNOW Apollo?).

    My opinion is this: the majority are NOT interested if they are or not having the latest OS version or upgrade or whatever. As long as it makes calls, texts, web surfing, feels great and doesnt disrupt their daily lives, they’re not gonna complain. But if it is true that Gen 2 WP devices will get Apollo, then that’s a great addition.

    I bought the Lumia for what it is NOW, not for what it could’ve become in the future.

    Side note: Paul Thurrott has as much wrong as he is right about Windows Phone. I think he once stated that Mango wouldn’t come to devices by 2012. That was really wrong.

    • dss says:

      The only difference being that the current Wp7 phones really need some basic functionality. The difference between iOS 4 and iOS 5 was smaller, than the one between wp7 and wp8. So they need to port some of it to the older devices.. Wp 7.6 or whatever they want to call it.

      Nokia did a very good job on the first gen symbian 3 devices, which very much like the current wp7 were lacking in certain areas.. but they got them up to speed with Belle, and there is one more update for this summer. Now.. its not their call anymore, its all Microsoft, they are in control of Nokia.

    • mdev says:

      Yes, you definitely like Lumia at it is now. However it seems that majority of the customers do not like it so much if we are looking at the only objective indicator: sales.

      A lot more people like Symbian as it is now, but you are not seeing me calling: “Let’s go with Symbian only, because I like it as it is now”.

  15. mdev says:

    It would be funny, if it was not so bad. So, the major new features in WP8/Appolo are BT transfer (of vCards, mind you, not files!!!) and NFC support? In such case WP is finished.

    Now, I know that vCard BT transfer and NFC are not the only and even not the most significant new features in WP8. So, your theory is dead wrong.

  16. mdev says:

    The big problem is the support of native code in WP8. Without it, WP has no chance in hell to succeed.

    With it, it is much harder to port to the older CPU architecture (they must support two versions for all binaries, libraries and so on, which is major PITA).

    C# .Net code from 7.5 will work fine on WP8 but the native apps from WP8 will not work on WP7.5. So the lack of upgrade is not a small problem but as I said the current sales are so small that if they do not pick up dramatically with WP8 it will not matter either way.

    So, sorry early WP adopters, you are the beta-testers.

  17. dansus says:

    Keep dreaming..

    Its not going to happen, time to move on.

  18. Kan says:

    If there is no upgrade path their will be many irate users and a blog like the Verge creaming themselves by providing these maligned users with a platform to criticise MS and Nokia.

    All of the mainstream Tech sites based in the US they are either pro Apple or Pro Google. The only thing they agree on is their hatred of MS.

    • DesR85 says:

      Whether or not current devices get WP 8, all I can tell is that Microsoft is keeping a tight lid on it. Not surprised why because the last time they released details on WP 7.5 months before its actual release, competitors soon start to copy some of its features into their phones as what one WP Central member pointed out.

      I just wished Microsoft release some statement to counter some of the rumours floating around the net lately. Starting to get irritating.

      • incognito says:

        What would the competition copy from a statement: Microsoft will provide upgrade for the current WP7 devices to WP8? The competition already has upgradeable OSes for at least several generations.

        On a side note – what did the competition copy from the WP 7.5′s features? By any objective merit it still lags behind the competition in pretty much every aspect.

        • DesR85 says:

          “On a side note – what did the competition copy from the WP 7.5′s features? By any objective merit it still lags behind the competition in pretty much every aspect.”

          There were details and screenshots of WP 7.5 posted on preview articles months before its official release, and from that description, get an idea of what features are inside it and eventually copy them. Just guessing here, though.

          From what I’ve seen of copied features so far, the recent Sony Xperia S copied the quick standby to camera feature plus its Facebook and Twitter integration. Even the iPhone 4S have the latter integration if I recall.

          • incognito says:

            1) You can’t see from screenshots standby-to-camera activation, and I don’t remember leaked videos of Mango

            2) Nokia has had that for ages – you just didn’t use the shutter button, but the lens cover (N95, N900 for sure, there were others as well) which is basically the same thing – I don’t remember ever turning the camera by actually running the app, except on the N900 w/ BlessN900 when I needed it. What’s more Nokia did it better than it is currently implemented in in WP7.5 – once you were done with the camera on the N95, provided you started it by opening the shutter and didn’t do anything apart from taking shots – by closing the shutter the device would return back to stand-by. This allowed for the cool feature of being able to password protect the unlock while still being able to snap pictures without the need to enter it (it also had a side effect, tho – you could explore the gallery without unlocking, don’t know if that bug was ever fixed)

            3) Facebook and Twitter integration – that’s what everybody has now (and I’d like it not to be a part of the OS, which is why I like the way it’s solved on the N900/N9/N950 through Telepathy), even featurephones, you really cannot claim that somebody stole it from somebody else.

            • DesR85 says:

              “2) Nokia has had that for ages – you just didn’t use the shutter button, but the lens cover (N95, N900 for sure, there were others as well) which is basically the same thing – I don’t remember ever turning the camera by actually running the app, except on the N900 w/ BlessN900 when I needed it. What’s more Nokia did it better than it is currently implemented in in WP7.5 – once you were done with the camera on the N95, provided you started it by opening the shutter and didn’t do anything apart from taking shots – by closing the shutter the device would return back to stand-by. This allowed for the cool feature of being able to password protect the unlock while still being able to snap pictures without the need to enter it (it also had a side effect, tho – you could explore the gallery without unlocking, don’t know if that bug was ever fixed)”

              Hmm… didn’t know that. Never did buy any of those phones before and my first phone with a good 5MP camera is the Nokia 6700 Slide, which obviously have no lens cover. I’ll keep that in mind. ;)

  19. Cod3rror says:

    Look guys, no one knows if it’s coming or not, the safest bet is to not buy Lumia phones, just wait till October and that’s it.

    • DelSEA says:

      Most people buy Android not knowing that they will get upgrade to the next os. I for one think it would be foolish for MS to abandon WP users. The moto is “Put People First”

    • Janne says:

      I agree with Co3rror, if getting Apollo is a must have for the device you buy, the safe bet is to wait.

      On the other hand, I am enjoying my two Lumias a lot. Waiting would have sucked.

      I buy new phones at least every 12 months anyway (usually more often), like many people nowadays. Less of a problem for people like me.

      • dss says:

        and all those people that are signing 2 year contracts with ATT ? Beta testers I guess..

        • Janne says:

          They are getting the product they buy, as always. Again, if getting Apollo *for sure* is mandatory for you, do wait.

          It is not mandatory for all people, and I expect Nokia and AT&T to support the 900 for two years in some capacity.

  20. SPAMMER says:

    There is no any logical reason to buy mobile with crappy Windows system of 0.4% of market share. And when here will be introduced the 3rd Windows and will also incompatible with Windows Mobile and Windows Phone then all that zombie dance will be even more hilarious. And still all this will be cooking itself whitin 0.4% market. Nobody really cares about this. And nobody want to pay for Microsoft “most needed and the newest patches” for not working software. Unneeded. This is next shit only for marketing playground. Nokia is in agony, customers demanding Nokia N9-MeeGo-SymbianBella-Carla, Elop is genius but differently, cirqus of nonsense as usual.

  21. Janne says:

    Here is how I see the situation:

    - Of course nobody here really knows what will happen. All can change.

    - One thing is certain: WP7.5 apps will work on WP8 in all its incarnations. .NET guarantees this and Microsoft has announced it.

    - I think it is looking increasingly likely WP8 will come out in two forms like Eldar (whom I usually don’t listen to anymore for obvious reasons) suggests. It makes sense, if the new kernel can’t come to current phones. One WP8 is with the old kernel, another with a new one for the new phones. They will have similar UI features but differences beneath.

    - Native new kernel apps may be incompatible with the old, or they may not be. Probably some sort of transitional plan for this will be invoked so to avoid an abrupt change. Since Microsoft controls the store, they can control what is allowed to be released. I agree, this is a far from optimal if this indeed is how it will play out.

    - The wild card is, that WP8 may not yet come with the new MinWin-kernel but perhaps some WinCE 7 variant with rudimentary dual-core support. This probably would fit into existing phones, delaying the jump to a kernel change by a generation. This might be unoptimal for a host of other reasons.

    So, it certainly looks like Nokia and Microsoft have their work cut out for them when it comes to managing this update. It is imperative they manage it well, and not, say, like Symbian EOL. There needs to be a true sense of the current devices being a part of the future at least for their contract-terms. The world is no longer a place where support for a phone can be dropped, like N97 major updates were dropped when Symbian^3 hit. Now better is needed.

    • Janne says:

      Mind you, they don’t need to support current devices forever. But they do need to support them long enough. The iPhone update model has shown the market accepts a couple of major updates for a device before it stops and is no longer getting updates or all the new apps.

    • dss says:

      Win8 is coming with MinWin.. I think they are done with CE, which is a good thing. The more I read MinWin, the more it sounds like its very similar to a unix kernel, which is what should have happened a loong time ago. So WinPhone 8 will essentially be Windows NT..

      So, that begs the question, why would you buy a Windows CE phone now, when in 5 months you can get a phone with a much better OS ? Oh.. right, no ones tells you that at the ATT store when you sign your 2 year deal.

      • Janne says:


        Well, it was incognito who a couple of days back cited “multiple sources” as saying MinWin might not yet come in WP8. So I was referring to that.

        Of course nobody here really knows what will happen. We shall see if it is good or bad.

        • incognito says:

          Just to be clear – as I’ve said back then, it’s a highly speculative thing, my ‘sources’ do work for Microsoft but in completely unrelated departments and those are just watercooler rumors. Wouldn’t bet my horse on that…

    • mdev says:

      They have no choice. Both Elop and MS know that Nokia will not last very long with this kind of sales and the greatest “feature” of WP8 will be that it is radically different from WP7.5, which failed miserably on the market.

      This is not “orderly-transition” thing, this is “desperate-change-and-hope-for-a-miracle” thing.

      So, once again Elop is betting “double or nothing” on some future contraption. This time however, he has no credibility at all, so it may end faster than anybody thinks.

      • Janne says:


        “This is not “orderly-transition” thing, this is “desperate-change-and-hope-for-a-miracle” thing.”

        Says you.

        If it turns out to be that, then yes, I agree it would a very dumb thing.

        But so far we have no information on that, just guesses and contradicting leaks.

    • migo says:

      I don’t think there’s any way there will be two WP8s. That would confuse the market, WP7.5 might get as many features from WP8 as they can put in, but because the kernel is different it won’t support native code, and calling it WP8 would be suicide.

      That’s why they’re calling Windows on ARM Windows RT – so there’s no assumption that it will be backwards compatible with Windows 7, Vista, etc.

  22. SPAMMER says:

    Microsoft Lumias are mobiles without any future: market share 0.5%, disappointed free gifts owners even, disappointed carriers, manufacturer of hardware in agony, chips worse then used formerly and brainwashing marketing. I really have doubts about this all. No doubts Elop is genius, different kind of genius.

  23. Rebbe says:

    The best thing that could happen is that wp8 would only be released to lumia devices. It would be good pr for Nokia.

    Will Nokia stop selling WP7.5 devices after wp8 lunch???? Or will they sell current lumias with upgraded hardware? I don’t see how the more resource intense wp8 will fulfil elops plans to get the wp experience to the lowend.

  24. Janne says:

    One way how this might go down, if incognito’s sources or speculation turns out to be true (it sound plausible to me), is that Windows Phone 8 is indeed still a WinCE based release like Mango. It would then be received by all current devices as well, but perhaps new devices released in the fall would be hardware compatible (and bootloaders and stuff) with the MinWin future. So in 2013 at some point when MinWin hits, the fall devices get it where are Mango devices will only get some smaller updates from that point on.

    • mdev says:

      Very unlikely. In such case Microsoft and Nokia would have quashed all rumors long ago. The only reason to keep us in the dark about this is that we will not like the definitive answer.

      • arts says:

        the only reason huh? good thing you are the MS insider here.

      • Janne says:


        “The only reason to keep us in the dark about this is that we will not like the definitive answer.”

        Well, no, the other plausible reason is that they are not yet sure what they can deliver and when – so there is uncertainty about the answer. The third option is that they don’t want to discuss future products at all, until a later date.

        Your option is of course very much possible, but saying it is the “only reason” is your bias talking. I would indeed be very surprised to see a fall update to Windows Phone and no corresponding update to Mango. Just left in cold, like that. I just don’t see them doing that, and if they do it will be a monumentally stupid move.

        Much better to release a version for old phones too, even if it were to miss certain functionality (like use a different kernel). It will go a long way to appease the masses and there is no technical reason for them not to. New phones would get more functionality and thus would sell, but old owners would feel appreciated too.

        So, I am putting it on record here. If fall comes, new WP release launches only on new devices without even a “lite version” for existing devices, that will be stupidity on par with the Symbian EOL and they will get hurt, hurt really bad by it. I have no problem calling mistake a mistake if and when it happens. But until they do it, I won’t be calling it certain.

        • mdev says:

          Well, to be honest, this will be nowhere near the Symbian debacle.

          First, the current WP sales are really low and many of the purchasers are first-time smartphone buyers and will not even know that they are being screwed over.

          Second, if WP8 is the resounding success we all hope it to be (however desperate), all will be forgiven with the huge number of the new sales.

          Third, they do not need to commit to anything until after the WP8 devices are out and selling for few months. If they are selling well, there will be some kind of lite update sometime in 2013. If the are selling only slightly better than WP7.5 there will be a better update sooner in 2013. And if they are selling as bad as WP7.5 phones, there will be no update at all and WP will be dead soon.

          • Janne says:

            While possible, stopping major Mango updates to Tango/Mango Refresh this summer would be a major PR mistake. The Symbian transition was mishandled, I hope they won’t mishandle this one. I am getting the sense that Apollo indeed won’t come to current phones, but a major Mango update at the same or similar time with similar new features would alleviate much of the pain.

            If they will, well, they do deserve the shitstorm that will be coming from current users. I’m not sure they would be wise to take that on. As for Apollo selling well, as a wholly separate issue I do wist that to happen of course.

            Well, it will be whatever it will be. We’ll see in due course. :) But reiterate my recommendation, hold on from buying a Lumia now if you indeed must have Apollo on it. For people like me, no worries, 808 is coming soon and come fall, I’m probably bored with my Lumias and Symbians in any case. :)

      • migo says:

        Nope, and here’s why.

        They’re already working on Windows RT, getting it to work on ARM devices, they’re already working on a smartphone like resolution for the 20/80 split in Windows 8 Metro. So once they have Windows RT on ARM tablets in the market, it’s not that much extra work to get it working on phones. That’ll happen eventually, no matter what. The question is how soon will it be ready? Will Windows RT be out with Windows 8 this year, or will it be delayed until some time in 2013?

        So what they could be doing is having the WP team continue working on WP as an upgrade for current devices, and potentially as a base OS for new devices (which would run on a Snapdragon S3 for easy backward and forward compatibility). Current devices would get WP8, devices launching with WP8 could get the complete kernel overhaul with WP9.

        This depends entirely on the Windows RT team. If the Windows RT team gets things done fast enough, then they make the shift for WP8. If they don’t get it done fast enough, then the MinWin Kernel comes in at WP9 in H2/13.

        Of course they’re going to say absolutely nothing if they’re not sure what’s going to happen. They already learned their lesson from Vista. They don’t want to promise a feature or a delivery date that they end up missing.

    • REMOVED says:

      …and that is why I feel winner and proud Nokia N9 user. It is evolving, getting better with updates and have better future then just killed Windows Phone. Just that is the clear proof it was better to avoid any Windows in mobile and have stable Linux in my mobile. My advice for you is to flash Lumias to MeeGo and you will have better phone. This also shows Microsoft doesn’t care about Nokia more then everybody care for yesteryear snow in the Winter. You have been tricked, sorry. Open source Lunux MeeGo is more reliable and with better future then promoted windows.

      • Simrat says:

        what about app?????/

      • Aliqudsi says:

        Are you retarded? i’m sorry but your going around spewing the same nonsense everywhere- just because Lumias MIGHT not get Apollo doesn’t mean that they wont get any future updates…. WP is far from killed- your precious Meego however is DEAD, Stable linux, Evolving? my N9 is empty no apps (cause it has none) and yet it’s buggy and laggy, where’s your Meegos future? your lucky if you get PR1.3.

        Meego WAS a good idea; actually in allhoesnty it wasn’t…..Swipe was a good idea; it just happened to end up on meego

        • REMOVED says:

          First of all MeeGo is better just because of apps. I have all I need. There are less but they are more value and useful, also there are no trashes in such number as in marketplace. And also is better because this is more comfortable for user. Last but not least – it just works. If you have N9, and you don’t have apps simply you haven’t looked for. I don’t say Windows must disappear. I say I and growing number of users will be using MeeGo. There would not be such a situation if both Lumia and N9 would be double-boot, and user would have a possibility to use preferred system in preferred time.

          There is also one point I’d like to pay your attention. This is Nokia blog. And users should not be discriminated because they don’t prefer the one and the only politically correct system. Simply because this forum is also to inform about new events like PureView etc. So if only windows lovers will be here then news like 808 41MPix will not be shown to the publicity – note Nokia need cash to survive as human need oxygen to breath. Of course I can be called troll or some other epithets, but what will happen when only here will be people from 0.5% windows market? Will it help Nokia to survive? I doubt, and also then it will not need to be named “my” or “Nokia” blog. IMHO. And Nokia is not in any position to loose any single user. Can’t effort for this.

        • Saul says:

          Stability? No issues here my friend, far more rock solid than the N900 was.
          There is still some big bugs floating around, I’m yet to hit them touch wood.
          But most of the remaining major ones look to be hit w/PR1.3.

          You don’t think it’d be much less of an issue by now if the team hadn’t shrunk by over 90% since last Feb,
          They’re struggling to hit all the major bugs, let alone add too many more significant features.
          Plus the OS is 6 freaking months old, to add as much as they have, & stabilize in that time, with the very limited resource they have (instead of the orig. planned increases), is nothing short of impressive.
          Look where iOS started out…..

          Laggy’s nowhere near the issue its made out to be either.
          I struggle to see any huge difference between my Samsing Focus S & N9 in that regard.
          It is clearly better, but the difference is overstated.
          iOS is slightly more laggy than WP at times too, even less so than maemo6x though.

          Have you genuinely even searched for the apps you need?
          So far I’m yet to hit a wall for apps I really need.
          Then again I can & often do take advantage of side-loading if nothing takes my fancy in the Store.
          Don’t have to be an uber-nerd to know how…

          • Janne says:

            Just a side note but my N9 (PR1.2) is considerably more laggy than my Lumias are.

            • Saul says:

              And yet how is it something that honestly affects actual usability for you.
              I notice a small differential that rarely means anything in real world terms.

              • Janne says:

                No, it does not affect usability. Just a small note. Lumia is much smoother. N9 is plenty smooth-enough to be usable in the modern sense.

              • Harangue says:

                Lag isn’t that much about usability, but more about aggrevation or joy of use.

                Waiting a second is of course not bad, it isn’t life changing if you wouldn’t have to wait. However, every single time you tap something and have to wait just a little time without any acknowledgement it gets annoying over time.

                Most ‘lag’ is conceiled in devices nowadays because of animations. WP does it, Android does it, iOS does it. It appears the N9 is lacking somewhat in that area and isn’t giving people some sort of acknowledgement of their input. That is what lag nowadays has become basically.

                • incognito says:

                  Hence why I suggested to have at least bouncy icons or generic animation when at least starting apps, but people said it’s not important…

                  Sure, you can put a splash screen in your application launcher, but it still is not as fancy as some animation and doesn’t add to the artificial ‘smoothness’ feel of the system.

                  Still, I’ve seen Androids lag far, far worse even on much more potent hardware than my N9, and even artificial animation effects don’t help there. In fact, I’d rather have ‘input lag’ than a needless animation that will take even more time, or god-forbid stutter itself.

                  The only other lag/stutter I noticed from time to time is when dynamically loading lists while you attempt to scroll them, and when connecting to a plethora of services in the background that tax the CPU to the max – but you’ll get the same, if not worse experience on your desktop computer when attempting the same. Given the hardware and true multitasking, the N9 performance is actually quite impressive. Yes, it has some rough edges, but nothing of a show stopper, not for a power user, not for your regular Joe.

                • Janne says:

                  Well, there is lag also in the smoothness of scrolling/swiping in N9 compared to Lumia. Less FPS, so to speak.

                  Not to belittle the N9, just to note that it is not all that smooth compared to Lumia.

        • Saul says:

          MeeGo was a perfectly sound idea too.
          It just got started 6mth (that pt was def. feasible) too late (& few too resources initially) & one delay toward the end of 2010 got investors too nervous.
          That’s business, that’s life… sadly.
          Sounds like all-up you’re letting your bias creep-in a little too much.
          Exaggerating at spots way too much etc.
          Then again I understand the reaction to the pure troll you’re responding to.

          • migo says:

            MeeGo was a horrible idea, I think it only made sense to upper management.

            Maemo was already working, based on Debian, which meant it was fairly compatible with Ubuntu and Mint (the two most popular Linux desktop distributions) and recompiling debian packages for ARM was relatively speaking easier than other distros.

            Moblin was based on RedHat/Fedora, and MeeGo was going to take the .rpm route, therefore Maemo was pretty much getting cancelled with Moblin taking lead in MeeGo, despite Maemo already being a working product and Moblin being something Intel was fucking around with to try to keep themselves relevant in the mobile space.

            Now if Moorestown had actually been released and working, and the N9 had been based on a power efficient x86 core, then we could look at MeeGo and say it’s worth it, because x86 makes it a hell of a lot easier to port stuff than ARM, but that never happened. And it was a huuuuge if.

            The problem with MeeGo wasn’t that it was 6 months too late, the problem was that Nokia ditched Maemo.

            • npo4 says:

              The benefit of MeeGo from Maemo was that it is much more consumer friendly- much more “phone” like.

              However, I agree that they could have probably achieved the same sort of thing in terms of software with Maemo, but given how little priority Nokia was giving either project, even Maemo6 may have come too late.

        • incognito says:

          Pray tell why Maemo/MeeGo wasn’t a good idea? I’d really like to hear some backing arguments for such a strong stance coming from a person that’s not one of those rah-rah-WP-rulez trolls on these pages just like their counterpart is this tool you were replying to.

          • Janne says:

            Actually, in all fairness, MeeGo probably wasn’t a good idea. It unnecessarily delayed Nokia and resulted in… Well, maybe it was good idea because it resulted in Nokia going WP. ;)

            Now… Maemo. That was a good idea.

            • Saul says:

              The delay it caused is grossly overstated, often by folks that seem to have had nothing to do with it.
              There were several other factors at play, some of which are more significant.
              e.g. getting started so late, resources too small initially, the whole Qt retooling, it goes on.

              The focus was still very heavily on Maemo6x, it had barely shifted before the strategy was cancelled.
              So no, MeeGo was not a big mistake, it was just happening a bit too late, & a stumble at the end of 2010 w/Maemo6x got investors nervous, the rest as we know is history.

              • Janne says:

                Saul: Aligns with what I know, so I can pretty much agree with what you say about Maemo 6. I wonder what could have been if a Maemo 6 device was ready for spring 2010…

                However, MeeGo in itself was a detour with questionable credentials and at least some lost time and focus. I am hard-pressed to say it was a good idea.

                But it goes to ecosystems. Nokia needed ecosystem partners and I guess even OPK and the then-gang understood this. MeeGo was an attempt at an ecosystem.

                • Janne says:

                  MeeGo caused uncertainty too. Maemo looked like a way forward, during spring 2010 the MeeGo news seemed like a bit of a cold shower. Not necessarily the reassuring news one needed…

              • migo says:

                No, MeeGo was a big mistake. When it was announced the collective reaction was “WTF?”. There wasn’t a single person anywhere on the internet (seriously, I challenge you to find a single anecdote to the contrary if you disagree) who thought it was a good idea. Unlike the WP move which created a split in opinion, but at least a lot of people thought was a good idea, nobody thought MeeGo was a good idea.

                Now I don’t blame Nokia fans for supporting Nokia in doing whatever they did and coming around to like MeeGo, but it was an absolutely terrible call made by people who knew nothing about the underlying technologies. Nokia saw MeeGo in terms of business relationships, not software.

          • migo says:

            Maemo was a great idea. If it hadn’t been held back by Symbian and then horribly mangled by being merged with Moblin, it could have turned out quite good.

            Since it was HW compatible with webOS, they could have even bought Palm, used some of the Maemo base code but implementing the webOS UI mostly and building up from that.

            Sadly, Nokia made so many mistakes that WP was the only option left.

            • Saul says:

              How was it mangled by the merging with moblin?
              It was just on a year old when it was cancelled.
              It was never meant to be anywhere near ready by that point, that’s what maemo6x was for.

              How would using WebOS primarily for the UX have been a far better proposition on balance?

              • migo says:

                Moblin was nothing. It was a proof of concept, but it wasn’t a working OS. Maemo was already a working OS that needed polish. Instead of using all the work that was already done on Maemo, and having the Intel team support them with additional manpower (and keeping things with .deb instead of .rpm), everything went to the not yet developed Moblin side.

                webOS was regarded by pretty much everyone who looked at it as awesome in so many ways. And still today various operating systems are copying webOS – it from a UI perspective lead the modern mobile operating systems. Its only problem was shit hardware, and the N900 actually had good hardware.

                The code was compatible, underlying stuff from Maemo could have been left in, while the UI was mostly overhauled to work like webOS, and since Peter Skilman came over to Nokia anyway, it would have ended up looking something like the N9 Swipe UI anyway, but it would have been out a year earlier, with an incredibly easy dev framework in Enyo, and underlying compatibility with over 20,000 Debian programs to be ported over.

                Also, despite webOS hardly selling, it had great developer support (relative to its miniscule actual user base), and developer good will and support is what Nokia desperately needed.

                Buying Palm was always the best thing Nokia could have done, even if they hadn’t screwed up with Symbian Signed, and had actually pushed Maemo a lot earlier, buying Palm would have still been their best move.

          • Aliqudsi says:

            Sure, of course this is just my opinion- anyways the reason meego wasn’t a good idea is because it never provided a TRUE incetive/alternative to other OEMs to leave android for and start producing it (you might not know this but Nokia had plans to license Meego to other OEms: HTC, Sammy…) but what could possibly make you leave a blooming OS to go to a brand new one with almost no app support (Nokia doesnt have the kind of money to bribe Devs to make new apps) besides the fact that you’d be competing with Nokias own homegrown software giving it an unfair advantage.

            Who in their right mind would buy an any other meego device (say a galaxy s2 with meego) when their other option is the N9 with swipe? (keep in mind Swipe isn’t part of meego and wasn’t going to passed around- think of it as touchwiz or HTC sense.)

            • Saul says:

              False assumption/premises thick & fast here.
              It wasn’t anywhere near ready for that yet.
              You dont start to get a blossoming of apps until you have one or two major handset makers on-board & a steady stream devices in the pipeline.
              The attracting of more entrants would’ve started to happen in 2011/2012.
              And there was plenty of incentive for it throughout 2011 (Motorola acquisition as one e.g.).

              By the time 2012 had hit there could’ve been at least one or two major handset OEM’s on board.*
              The 1st x86 handsets would be on their way, & meego proper would’ve started to take on a far more SwipeUX/polished look.
              The 3rd and final Nokia maemo6 handset would be shipping by march at latest. And the 1st wave of meego handsets could be winging their way to market not long after.

              *in fact there was already at least one or two IIRC. LG and one other, need to check.

              • Saul says:

                ["And the 1st wave of meego handsets could be winging their way to market not long after."]

                Not necessarily all handsets, could’ve been a few other form-factors in there.
                Not the 1st clunky ones that were launched end of 2010, begin of 2011.

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