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MNB-RG: Lumia selling well in Finland

| January 6, 2013 | 196 Replies

nokia_lumia_800_white_live_sg_8-580x405

We saw last week that the Lumias were selling well with Elisa. Otto has sent in his article about the progress of Nokia in Finland this year.

Finland is a very interesting market what comes to Nokia. It should be their home ground, but getting a smartphone to Top5 most sold devices list seems to be behind quite a battle.
Three largest operators released their “most sold phones” (units sold to consumers) for full year 2012.

Sonera full year 2012 most sold phones:
1. Nokia Lumia 800
2. Apple iPhone 4S
3. Samsung Galaxy XCover
4. Samsung Galaxy Gio
5. Apple iPhone 5

Elisa full year 2012 most sold phones (consumers):
1. Nokia Lumia 800
2. Apple iPhone 4S
3. Nokia C2-01 *
4. Samsung Galaxy S III
5. Samsung Galaxy S II

DNA did not give exact full year ratings, we shall see if they will. Press release had short mention saying:
iPhone 5 is clear number one for 2012 with very even competition behind it.”
In press release DNA points Samsung Galaxy Xcover, Samsung Galaxy S II, Nokia Lumia 800 and Apple iPhone 4S as examples of phones that have been in Top10 list whole year.

So it seems that Lumia 800 has been the only Nokia smartphone to top sales lists on all three operators, even above iPhone.
For those not familiar with it, Nokia smartphones do not usually sell better than iPhone, not even in Finland. Here are 2011 readings for comparison:

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Sonera full year 2011 most sold phones:
1. Apple iPhone 4
2. Nokia C2 *
3. Nokia C5-00
4. Nokia E7
5. Nokia C7

Elisa full year 2011 most sold phones (consumer):
1. Apple iPhone 4
2. Nokia C2-01 *
3. ZTE Blade
4. Samsung Galaxy Gio
5. Nokia E7-00

DNA full year 2011 most sold phones:
1. Nokia C2-01 *
2. Samsung Galaxy Mini
3. Apple iPhone 4
4. Nokia 7230
5. Samsung Galaxy S II

(* Nokia C2-01 is a feature phone in sub-100€ price range)

And as everyone is looking towards the sales of Lumia 920, we know something about that too. On December most sold devices list, Lumia 920 was in Top5 on all operators. In DNA stores it was even selling more than iPhone 5. Lumia 920 also sold better than Galaxy S series on all operators, which may be due to SGS3′s longer time on market:

Sonera top5 most sold phones in December 2012:
1. Nokia Lumia 800
2. Apple iPhone 5
3. Nokia Lumia 920
4. Samsung Galaxy Gio
5. Apple iPhone 4S

Elisa top5 most sold phones in December 2012 (consumer):
1. Apple iPhone 5
2. Nokia Lumia 800
3. Nokia Lumia 920
4. Samsung Galaxy S III Mini
5. Samsung Galaxy S III

DNA top5 most sold phones in December 2012:
1. Samsung Galaxy Y
2. Nokia Lumia 920
3. Nokia Lumia 800
4. iPhone 5
5. Nokia 113

Source: press releases of
Sonera: http://uutishuone.sonera.fi/
Elisa: http://corporate.elisa.fi/elisa-oyj/tiedotteet/tiedote/
DNA: http://www.dna.fi/DNAOy/Media/Sivut/Default.aspx

 Cheers Otto!

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Category: Nokia

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  • eeteet

    That it is the way that should be everywhere! Finnish knows best phones.

    • jessy

      for that to happen,
      they should first produce & release it to all the countries.

  • arts

    great news!, lets see if it translate into better news on 24 jan.

  • Otto

    It should be noted that in 2011 Nokia had 3 smartphones in Sonera top5, now they have 1. On the other hand, sounds as improvement for all other operators.

    • dss

      Okay… we should get this out of the way.. WP will never dominate the market like Symbian did.. therefore Nokia is less likely to do so either.

      • Janne

        dss: But let’s not pretend either that any other choice Nokia could have made in 2011 (including sticking to the Qt strategy) would have kept their pre-Android Symbian domination either. The only possible way Nokia could have maintained domination is to have done what I’ve been telling: replace Symbian with Maemo *before* iPhone and Android. In essence, creating the modern smartphone before the others did and entrenched ecosystems. And even in that case it might not have lasted long.

        I’ll tell you why:

        The smartphone space is far more contested now, especially in Europe or Finland, than it was pre-iPhone, pre-Android. Symbian was the only major option and of that Nokia was the only majorly successful manufacturer. (That’s why turd like N97 sold a lot, on that momentum alone. Until we know what started to happen to that marketshare…) The U.S. was still asleep when it came to the concept of smartphone, the emerging markets were still stuck to feature phones. This has now changed and clearly has changed forever.

        Even had Nokia joined Android in 2011, they would not enjoy anywhere near the kind of success they did in 2007. Android might, sure, but that’s not Nokia’s direct benefit if they can’t compete with the entrenched players within that ecosystem.

        So, no WP will never dominate like that, but then again neither will anything else – perhaps Android does at the moment, but I don’t really see that lasting either because the smartphone space is too important right now for too many players. It will be contested in ways that Symbian was never contested in 2006.

        The next domination may come from a new disruption, but I don’t see the current type of smartphone space ever again being dominated like Symbian dominated it – beyond what Android is doing now. I expect Android’s domination to weaken as new players enter the fray and the result being much more diverse than, say, the PC operating system space of late 1990s.

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu

          This is true.

          Symbian was collapsing and it would have collapset with or without Elop and the new strategy. There was practically nothing Nokia could have done. Even the new Symbian^3 was not able to stop this development.

          Without Elop and with MeeGo, it’s possible that Nokia could have sold a bit more Symbian phones it was selling, but not too much. Symbian was already uncompetitive and Nokia was keeping up sales by dropping the ASP.

          Elop managed to stop the collapse of the ASP and the ASP of WP has not dropped further. It’s on the same level it was when Symbian was abandoned. This is actually unheard of! Nokia was forced to drop the ASP but Elop managed to stop that development.

          • ULTIMATEANTITROLL

            Actually, Elop has managed to increase the ASP a little bit over the past little while. The popularity of the 920 is sure to increase ASP as well for Q4.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu

              That’s true, but somehow I didn’t want to embarrass anyone with that particular information.

              It was a huge problem that the ASP was dropping when Nokia was selling mostly Symbian phones in 2010.

      • nn

        Yes. Now imagine it’s end of 2010, you have record sales, record profits, market share slowly fading from 30 %, and here is the new strategy of throwing away everything you have and turning the company upside down. What sort of target you have to set so that one or two years down the road, when the company is almost annihilated you are still smiling that everything is all right? Or do you have any target whatsoever?

        • Janne

          Slowly fading? Crashing was more like it.

          Nokia dominated Finnish smartphone sales to the tune of 70+% (and did this abroad as well). Being at 30% was a disaster and going to end in 0%. Fact of the matter is, Lumia is the reason Nokia is again a growing player in the Finnish smartphone race.

          Was WP the right choice? Perhaps no, perhaps yes. We’ll see. We know mistakes have been made in the execution of the transition, for sure. But I see the myth that everything was fine with Symbian lives on…

          • nn

            Yes, slowly fading, market share started to crash only after Elop made the switch.

            Nice how you bash pre-Elop Nokia for falling from 70 % share. But when it comes to WP, suddenly it doesn’t matter that under WP Nokia market share crashed even more, instead we learn that market has changed, there are other contestants, it’s too important market and most probably nobody will rule it again with 70 %. And the best part – constatnly suggesting that even 2 % may be good enough.

            • Janne

              No, no… it matters. WP may have been the wrong choice and it may fail.

              Nobody here is pretending Nokia is fine in Q4/2012. Only some are pretending Nokia was fine in Q4/2010.

              • nn

                Time and time again, one has to wonder how anybody can claim that Q4/2010 performance (or anything before that) was disaster and then with straight face assert WP still may or may not work, depending (or maybe not) on the last quarter.

                Hell, even the line that previous strategy may have worked is really absurd, because it’s in fact working better than WP! If you add Asha, it’s actually demolishing WP.

                • Janne

                  Because others look at performance as an on-going concern as opposed to a snapshot in time. Nokia’s numbers in Q4/2010 in isolation were perfectly acceptable.

                  Symbian was crashing on the market and Nokia’s response to it was months away, unproven and with lackluster support. Nokia saw it, most us here see it.

                  The BIG question is: How should they have responded. That is much more up for debate.

                  • nn

                    Sure, now if we only could tell who is who.

                    On one hand there are people who look at long term sales growth, profits and share decline in the case of Symbian. They also look at WP and see persistent, long term inability to gain even little bit of traction, quickly driving Nokia into oblivion.

                    And then we have those, who are absolutely sure there would be sudden, unforeseen dislocation in 2011 that would almost instantly crash Nokia. They are also constantly on the hunt for the next WP quarter holding their final judgement, as if one quarter, which nobody expects is going to be exceptional, could erase previous two years.

                    • tom

                      Remember all those WP fans will throw lot of subjective arguments, but nothing objective. No numbers. WP failed miserably before Nokia choose it. It was in the market already, no one bought it. It would be insane in such situation to choose WP exclusive.

                      Looking at the WP sales numbers, but for the fans, no one is buying it.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                  Even Ovi Store was a disaster in Q4 2010.

                  It was lagging behind of App Store and was performing extremely poorly even while Nokia was releasing almost fabricated numbers in an attempt to make Symbian look better.

                  Huge amount of those downloads reported from Ovi Store were coming from S40.

                  Apple’s downloads included only applications and Apple’s numbers didn’t include downloads for updates.

                  Nokia’s download numbers included everything from applications to ringtones. Everything.

                  Apple’s ASP for apps was about $0.20 while Nokia’s ASP for applications and other content was extremely low.

                  Nokia’s Ovi Store was extremely fragmented. Symbian applications for an older phone didn’t work too often with a new phone. Apple’s apps worked with new phones even when those were made for an old phone.

                  Nokia’s Ovi Store was fragmented between S40 and Symbian. Apple had no such problem with iPad and iPhone.

                  • nn

                    Your comparison with Apple could have some minimal sense if they switched to iOS. Instead Elop went with WP, which was even worse than.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      Are you suggesting Nokia should have tried to license iOS?

                      The comparison is pretty good because Nokia is fighting against Apple. Even Android has problems on applications. Developers make so much more money from apps compared to applications.

                      Android is a nice OS but it has few flaws compared to iOS. First, piracy is a real problem. Second, security is not as good as it’s with iOS. Third, possibly partly because of the first flaw, developers get less income from Android.

                      It’s probable that Google will improve security issues by copying some concepts from Apple. That would be just great!

                      It remains to be seen if they will fight piracy by closing Android a bit. Not as much as Apple does, but a bit.

                    • nn

                      No, I’m suggesting that your comparison with Apple or Android is like explaining the necessity to relocate from Finland to Antarctic by arguing that San Francisco is far more sunny and warmer than Helsinki.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      So, are you claiming that Nokia didn’t lose market share to iOS and Android?

                      Steve Jobs introduced the worlds first modern smartphone.

                      That was the beginning of the end for Nokia.

                      Apple had the genius while Nokia has, well, Marko Ahtisaari. He can speak fluent English and Finns praise him because of that.

                      In Finland some people think that if you are a Finn and fluent in English, then you have to be a great designer designing the best products the world has ever seen – if a Finn claims that in English.

                      In Finland it’s not really possible to ask if Marko Ahtisaari can design anything. Because he can speak fluent English, you up to you to prove that he can’t design. Really, people consider you as the one who lies if you ask for some proof about his design skills.

                      So that’s why so many people in Finland think Nokia has a designed just as good as Steve Jobs was.

                      Really.

                    • nn

                      No, I’m not claiming that and If there was someone able to read he could even say I claim the opposite.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      So, Nokia was doomed no matter what?

                    • nn

                      You mean before Elop? No, why would that be?

                • IkeVasel

                  Just see this and then tell us if everything was as you said http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-FI-monthly-200812-201301

                  • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                    While this doesn’t tell the unit sales, it does show the time when Android really started to become popular.

                    Somehow Nokia started to lose market share at the same time Android was really starting to show in the stats.

                    Symbian just was becoming obsolete in 2010 and that’s the reason Nokia had to give up with it. It was no longer competitive.

            • Peter L

              Market share started to crash only after Elop made the switch? If this was meant to be sarcastic then ignore the rest of this comment.

              LIE. A HUGE LIE.

              http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-android-is-taking-over-the-smartphone-market-2011-11

              • Dr.Smart

                LOL, Gartner .. look what they have said in Sept. 2010.

                http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1434613

                Three month to go until the end of 2010, they have painted a much more smoother decline of Symbian.

                Now the rapid decline in 2010 as contained in the later Gartner graph that you reference seems to be at odd with the Gartner’s Sept 2010 report indicating a post-smoothing of the later graph where the sudden drop of market share by Elop effect is smoothed out by smoothing the curve viz a lesser granularity (ie longer term).

                In any case, the analysts are full of shits and often wrong any way. Try to trust the numbers only.

                • Peter L

                  Wrong.

                  Even Nokia’s own official reported quarterly results agree with this decline.

                  Q1: 41 (other manufacturers used to do Symbian phones still during this point)
                  Q2: 41
                  Q3: 38
                  Q4: 31

                  • Dr.Smart

                    Ah! And now you claim Nokia reports market share!

                    • Peter L

                      Sigh…

                      Nokia did report their marketshare in 2010. You can download the reports yourself.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      hard to believe. Please send me a link if you would.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      The reason I cannot believe you is that for Nokia to release its own market share, it has make an appraisal of the sales of other companies. That other companies, Samsung for example, did not disclose Smartphone/feature phone unit sale divide or the fact that there are so many vendors to consider in order to estimate the market size, I don’t think a company would compute their market share for other people’s benefit. Market share itself is just an estimate and the job of analysts.

                    • Peter L

                      @Dr.Smart

                      You’re supposed to be the Dr. Smart, you should be able to find the documents yourself after minimal research.

                    • Janne

                      Dr. Smart:

                      The reason I cannot believe you is that for Nokia to release its own market share, it has make an appraisal of the sales of other companies. That other companies, Samsung for example, did not disclose Smartphone/feature phone unit sale divide or the fact that there are so many vendors to consider in order to estimate the market size, I don’t think a company would compute their market share for other people’s benefit. Market share itself is just an estimate and the job of analysts.

                      Nokia did release their marketshare estimates in 2010. Ere is right about this.

                      E.g. page 4 of the Q1/2010 quarterly presentation (part of the results announcement):

                      http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/290670/data/2/-/Request-Q1-2010-results-presentation1-pdf.pdf

                      “According to our preliminary estimates, our device market share* was 33 percent in Q1 – down 2 percent sequentially”

                    • Janne

                      Sorry, Peter not Ere.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                  Just check how fast Nokia’s market share was collapsing.

                  That’s what would have happened without the new strategy.

                  Market share matters.

                  • Dr.Smart

                    Try to read what people have written. Just blurting out out-of-context remark is not conductive with discussion.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      No, not out of context.

                      Nokia’s market share was collapsing and it was just a matter of time when that was going to destroy the unit sales.

                      Actually it happened when the market growth was no longer able to compensate the loss of market share.

                      Gartner may have predicted a different future for Symbian, at the time. But did you ever check what was their forecast after the new strategy? That may give you some perspective.

                      The best forecaster however told us that they were going to lose lots of unit sales and that was before the new strategy.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      And how your post relate to what I’m saying? Don’t sub-thread me if what you want to say is not a reply to what I say. Out-of-context.. sigh.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      It’s all about Nokia collapsing before the strategy change.

                      It may be very hard to understand if you don’t approve the new strategy.

                      So, you never looked at those forecasts after the strategy change? I guess it would be bit hard because Gartner didn’t see the collapse coming.

          • tom

            @janne,

            Sorry mate, I got to disagree with you. Discarding something with 30% market share and replacing with something close to 0% market share is not sane choice. Not when there is no migration path and especially when the new choice had already failed miserably in market place. Remember WP failed miserably before Nokia choose it. I would have said same thing if they did the same and replaced with Meego.

            I am not sure you understand risk management at this point or your love for WP blinds you. You need to understand that WP failed miserable before Nokia choose it and people voted with their walled against WP.

            • Janne

              What are you disagreeing with? I don’t disagree with at least with what you wrote.

              WP may fail. It may have been the wrong choice.

              I’m saying Symbian would have gone to 0% anyway and something needed to be done. What was the right choice? There are many good answer candidates to that.

              But Symbian was not fine in Q4/2012. MeeGo might have worked, although I expect with similar troubles of a new ecosystem as WP. MeeGo *might* have been a better choice. Maybe even Android. Or maybe there was no good choice.

              Feb11 was a mistake, I disagreed with that right here on MNB then. Symbian transition failed. WP7 Lumia failed to generate market success. I am under no illusions and have *consistently* posted my opinions on this. It should by now come as a surprise to anyone.

              The decider? Q4 results.

              I would love it if people would at least respond to my opinions/views as opposed to their own imagined ones.

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                I bet Feb 11 was probably not that big mistake.

                It actually slowed down the loss of the market share.

                Nokia was losing unit sales because market no longer grew.

                It was also very important to make people at Nokia to understand that Symbian was a dead end and MeeGo really never had a future because there was no real migration path for most of current Symbian applications.

                Very few Symbian applications were made with Qt. Without those there was really nothing to deploy for MeeGo.

        • Mark

          Yes. Whilst we’re at it let’s imagine a world where you can nail jelly to the ceiling.

          Target is a return to profitability.

          Incidentally, in what bizarre world do you define profits in 2010 (2,070 million euro) as ‘record’ when operating profits were 7,985 million euro in 2007 and 4,970 million Euro in 2008? :)

          LOL! You really don’t have a clue do you? You’re either trolling or smoking something pretty good! :)

          • nn

            Return to what? At the end of 2010 you are already profitable.

            Maybe if your strategy is to first push the company into deep loses…

            • Janne

              That’s only if you believe sustaining Q4/2010 situation would have kept Nokia in profit.

              I know you believe it.

              I don’t.

              That said, I am not sure WP was the right choice either. We’ll see.

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                There is something those old school Nokia fans don’t understand.

                Maybe there was nothing, not a single choice, Nokia could have done to stop the collapse. Maybe they just lost it?

                After all, Nokia was known to be a manufacturer of low quality and low end Symbian phones. Symbian phones that lagged, were extremely unreliable and didn’t have a smooth UI.

                Maybe Nokia was just doomed and they no longer had a good reputation.

                Even the high end Symbian phones, like the E7, were extremely unreliable and people just hated those.

                Yes, the Nokia sheep will claim that this was not the case and all Symbian phones were just perfect. This is one key element of this religion. Denying everything hurting the faith.

                • Janne

                  It is possible there was no right choice in 2011. Nokia should have put Maemo on the forefront in 2005.

              • v.s.i

                Oh, I’ll say something. If they went for Android on that day and continued to push the same HW designs, I’m betting a pretty penny that the 2007-2008-era market share would still be a reality today. That maps argument doesn’t really hold water, first of all because they’re not in the Open Handset Alliance – so why not make a Nokia maps app instead of Google maps, pay Google for Play Store/other services and call it a day?
                The 920 would have stood out as an Android phone pretty well, bar the CPU which would have to be an APQ 8960 instead of an MSM and 2 GB RAM, both predictable enough to be considered early on in the design pipeline. :P
                Even as we speak (well, write) and most surely in the future, people keep saying that an Android high-end Nokia would go a long way in reestablishing the market share. And, well, I’m not going to add anything any more.
                Just that the door is open for possibilities (after 2016 as I’ve understood), and will always be. It never hurts a business to listen to its customers, y’ know… :)

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                  Pay Google for access to the Play? Why not making this fairytale more interesting? Why not suggest that Nokia should have licensed iOS and ported Qt for that?

                  In reality Nokia was not able to replace Google Maps if they wanted to have access to Play.

                  Oh well. Nokia has Android phone(s) in development and they may release those in the future.

                  It was just common sense to abandon Meltemi because if they really needed an alternative for Widows Phone, the only possibility seems to be Android.

            • Mark

              And profits were down by almost 75% compared to 2007. Which to anyone remotely sane would indicate that’s where the problems began.

              But, hey, carry on living in your fantasy world where everything was OK in 2010 if you want. It’s all good! :)

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                That’s true.

                Nokia started to collapse back in 2007 when Apple invented the modern smartphone replacing the old smartphone from Nokia.

                I bet someone is accusing Elop for the profits collapsing after 2007.

              • nn

                Aha! So you were talking about return to the 7B profits from 2007? Now I see, from the moment he made his big change, Elop is firmly on track to achieve that, only complete fool would deny it.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                  Maybe that was impossible?

                  OPK really messed up Nokia.

                  I would like to see those Nokia fans praising OPK’s great skills for dropping production costs for Symbian phones.

                  The old good days, when OPK ordered Nokia to ship phones with old processors and less processing power. The old good days when Nokia fans praised the low end hardware by claiming that Symbian is just great with low end hardware.

                  Nokia shipped too many uncompetitive products.

                  • nn

                    Well, talk to Mark, he is The Boss setting the targets. He says 2B wasn’t enough, Nokia urgently needed to return to 8B. And because he doesn’t seem to be disturbed by Elop performance so far, it’s clear Elop is more or less on the track to hit the target (barring unforeseen events, of course).

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      OPK managed to destroy 5B from Nokia’s profits. Elop never destroyed that much.

                      OPK destroyed twice as much from Nokia’s stock value as Elop never did.

                      OPK started the decline of the market share, profits and ASP. It was not Elop who did that.

                      It was OPK who was arrogant and gave the high end to Apple. Apple destroyed Nokia’s market share in high end and humiliated Nokia. It was OPK who was letting all this happen.

                      Now, who is really the one who messed up Nokia?

                      And you are blaming Elop for all this?

                    • nn

                      I wouldn’t be so sure, if he is able to add at least 300M euro of loses in last quarter, he will achieve -3B in 2012, comfortably making your 5B nominal drop in just two years.

                      But I’m little bit lost here. Are you saying the actual target, by which Elop’s success is measured, is that he doesn’t destroy the company in nominal terms more than what his predecessor lost from the absolute peak?

                      That would be very clever target indeed, by that measure he is guaranteed not to fail. Even if he liquidated the company on his first day.

                    • http://twitter.com/haranguemnb Harangie

                      The big problem with all these comparisons is that they are utterly pointless.

                      The entire mobile market has changed countless times over the past years alone. How can you even make a proper comparison to something years ago?

                      A sale then is uncomparable with one now. Smartphone adoption is way higher than it was 3 years ago. People have become more entrenched into various ‘ecosystems’ than a couple of years go when it was only Apple.

                      i doubt Nokia could have retained customers with the products they offered back in 2010 and maybe even 2011, let alone before that. Nokia didn’t offer anything compelling. That drove customers to others, like Android and Apple. Customers liked that or invested too much into the ecosystem so they stayed there.

                      My ideas on the matter will probably be met with some more Elop did this, Elop did that. OPK did another and Vanjoki said that.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      That tells us if Elop performed worse than OPK. Elop didn’t.

                      OPK was destroying Nokia and giving the high end market to Apple and Google.

                      What Elop received was Germany in 1943 or 1944. Some juice left but the inevitable was just behind the corner.

                      Actually, there are lots of similarities.

                      They had some miracle weapons and Nokia had these miracle phones like MeeGo.

                      They had arrogant leaders and Nokia had plenty of those.

                      They were starting to feel the pressure on every front and Nokia was starting to lose on every possible market segment.

                      So, what option Elop really had?

                    • nn

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      So, you wouldn’t make any target? Just write off the whole profit making division as crap, let Elop play with it and if it by some chance doesn’t completely implode, proclaim success?

                      You know, I actually think this may be right. If they don’t mind what happens with smartphones and don’t include them in their future plans, then the no-plan-b leave-no-prisoners strategy makes sense.

                    • nn

                      @Harangie

                      Yep, if it’s glaringly obvious whose fault it is, the best defence tactic is to muddle the waters.

                      You can’t compare this with that. Nobody knows anything. In fact nobody could have known anything. Ollila, OPK and Elop all made mistakes. WP could have worked and Symbian/MeeGo too, we just don’t know. Or maybe no strategy could have worked. Blame everyone and everything and thus no one and nothing.

                    • Janne

                      nn: You are right literally speaking. Although I know you are being sarcastic and don’t really mean it.

                      But it is correct that there is much we don’t know. Take the Muropaketti articles for example, huge insight into Nokia, yet controversial views from many parts of the organization as well.

                      Life is hardly black and white or simple like that. Sometimes we really don’t know or can’t tell.

                      Your easy finger pointing fits well into the fifth grade, where whose naughty or nice is simple. The adult world is much more complex.

                      That said, Elop is responsible for Nokia now. If the results don’t improve, out with him and in with someone to rethink the strategy.

    • Janne

      It should be noted that in 2011 Nokia had 3 smartphones in Sonera top5, now they have 1. On the other hand, sounds as improvement for all other operators.

      And we can clearly see why: Sonera sells most to the businesses, which are far more conservative and slow-moving in their phone choices than consumers are.

      Elisa and DNA in 2011 were showing the very strong consumer trend of moving *away* from Nokia. This resonates extremely well with what I’ve seen and heard personally.

      People in Finland were moving away from Nokia because Symbian^3 was not a competitive choice.

      Then came Lumia.

      • nn

        You mean you expected carriers and people will flock to Symbian phones even when Elop announced at the start of 2011 that he is killing it?

        Sure, it was because the phones were uncompetitive and it had nothing to do with the fact that the product was discontinued in spectacular fashion.

        • Janne

          Yes, it was because the phones were uncompetitive in the case of Finland. Maybe in some other markets Feb11 caused operators and retailers to abandon Nokia in droves and thus lessen sales, but I seriously doubt that had any meaningful effect in Finland. The meaningful effect came from people and media trying out e.g. the N8 and E7 and comparing them to what the competition had.

          Heck, E7 and Samsung Galaxy S II came out within a month or so. If that’s not telling to you about the competitive situation I don’t know what is.

          • Janne

            Here is StatCounter Finland since beginning of 2010, well into OPK era. Symbian crashing all through 2010 like there is no tomorrow:

            http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-FI-monthly-201001-201212

            How can anyone argue with that?

            • Peter L

              Elop effect shows really nicely in that graph. ;)

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                That graph shows that Symbian was no longer used so much for web.

                People used it less and less.

            • nn

              So we have one OS, where because the phones were uncompetitive people wouldn’t buy them and it’s confirmed by the crashing sales. And we have also another OS, where… competitiveness, willingness to buy and resulting sales are entirely different things, only fool would make any causal relationship between them!

              Maybe overall share in internet traffic in Finland was crashing for Symbian, but share in actual smartphone sales was 76 % in Q3/2010 and dropped to less than half only year later, after the switch.

            • Dr.Smart

              The reason I think you are a snake is that you are even more manipulative and selective in choosing data than even Tomi.

              If you choose WORLDWIDE instead of Finland, see what happens in your vaunted STATCOUNTER:

              http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-ww-monthly-201001-201212

              And you still argue that statcounter is a good indication of mobile phone sales? What gives man??

              • Dr.Smart

                Statcounter perhaps shows installed bases at most. You cannot argue that because the usage was down in Finland, the sales were this way or that.

                • Dr.Smart

                  Finally, many Symbian users choose to use Opera. I don’t think Statcounter takes that into account.

                  • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                    Trying to use web statistics to figure out sales of almost any phone is usually plain stupid.

                    It was not possible to extract the unit sales of N9 phones from web statistics and it’s not possible to use web statistics to figure out how many N8 or N920 phones were sold in the launch quarter.

                    Statcounter may tell you that people are using those phones. Unit sales? No.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      yep!

                    • Janne

                      Did I ever suggest unit sales? I suggested StatCounter is a proxy to market share via installed base.

                      As all proxies, it is an imperfect one. Just like the operator top listings are an imperfect proxy, yet useful.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      No, you did not.

                      It tells if people are starting to use something. For example the interest for Android phones matches the collapse of Nokia’s loss of market share.

              • Janne

                This thread and my comments are about FINLAND.

                • Dr.Smart

                  And? What I showed you is that Statcounter is not a good indication of unit sales, not worldwide and not in Finland.

                  You can’t argue the collapse of the sales of Symbian in Finland based on Statcounter.

                  • Janne

                    Post better ones, then.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      The burden of proof is on you man!

                    • Janne

                      Equally on you. I offered one insight. Offer me more than innuendo to counter it.

          • Dr.Smart

            That Symbian never had a chance to sport more advanced HW is Elop’s fault. So faulting Symbian, an OS, for bad HW spec is laughable.

            And N9 on the other hand came out not much later than GS II anyways.

            • Janne

              Symbian may have gotten to somewhat more advanced HW without Elop, but not in time. N9 came out an eternity later in the smartphone age, already with last-years specs.

              Nokia was a mess in 2010 when it comes to successor hardware, that much is clear from Muropaketti and a number of other sources. Sure, for the sake of argument I’ll give you Symbian^4 might have worked, but was so incompatible with Symbian^3 it was practically a new ecosystem in itself to build alongside building MeeGo etc. Qt was a glue, but seriously Qt on mobile was nowhere near the wholesome glue it was paraded to be in PR speak.

              That’s the thing: Nokia should have abandoned the whole shebang long ago and went with Maemo. Touch should have been the moment for Maemo to shine. Instead they got where they got: The most manned OS offering on the planet delivering turd.

              Now, the current offering is clearly producing turd on the market and it may have been a mistake – if WP8 don’t turn things around, then it has been definitely a mistake. If so, out with Elop and in with someone with new ideas.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu

              So, you blame Elop for not making N8 to be powerful enough?

              The hardware of N8 was ready when Elop started to work for Nokia. Changing the hardware would have taken lots of time and delayed N8 even further. N8 was already heavily delayed because Nokia was not able to ship Symbian^3 on time.

              Or perhaps you blame Elop for the biggest product failure they had? The N97 that had very poor hardware and and even the software.

              You seem to have double standards for Elop and OPK. Not blame the old management while Elop is accused is not very fair.

              So, you are accusing Elop for ruining the hardware because he just released N8 the way it was designed.

              The hardware for N9 was also pretty much ready when Elop started in 2010. It was the software that was not ready. That’s the reason Nokia was not able to release N9 when they should have.

  • massy

    The only problem nokia have is they cant advertise there products proply,they have to tell the consumer thru simple adverts that this is the most advance mobile phone in the world (nokia lumia 920)the way apple has doing for years now Samsung has started doing it too.tell us nokia E.g – Clear black,1080p,wireless charging,low light pics,richer sounds recording,32gb,4.7inch screen,nokia maps,nokia music,nokia city, lens,nokia drive,nokia smart shoot. & it works with gloves on! The nokia lumia 920 is a amazing phone,but that’s the problem right ther.Nokia start advertising propyl.Then normal ppl will think twice before buying a iphone!!! Then they will say wait a minute my iphone doznt do that even tho I paid £600!

  • Bloob

    I just don’t understand why anyone ( person or business ) would want to use XCover, it is horrible.

  • Dr.Smart

    Forget about the full year. Look at December only for where things are heading. In the busy and profitable holiday season, the new line of Lumia is not doing top rate (L920 not capturing the top spot even though Finland is Nokia’s f-ing backyard). Rather pathetic if you think about it.

    • Jens

      Problem is, Nokia have had so much trouble delivering the phones. Hence all the sold-out signs. How many sales have been thrown down the toilet? 1 million? 2 million? Who knows?
      So judging Nokia by the Q4 sales of the Lumia 920 would be misleading, in my opinion. All we can use it for is a pointer to how things will be down the road, the next couple of quarters.
      One thing is for sure though – Nokia have managed to create a buzz around their offerings that was not there before.

      • Dr.Smart

        At least the old Nokia wasn’t having problem delivering. What happened to Nokia really? It’s as if they are committing suicide by having bad products, then delaying new models, then having delivery problems .. a cycle hit as people would say across the pond.

        • Janne

          Yep, the old Nokia was relying on their huge stockpile of 2003 ARM11′s. :)

          • Dr.Smart

            So are you suggesting that L920 is suffering from CPU (SOC) shortage? If not, what is your f-ing point if I may enquire?

            • Janne

              Yes, pretty much. Qualcomm shortages.

              • Dr.Smart

                And whose fault is it to having to limit yourself to Qualcomm chips?

                • Janne

                  Nokia’s of course.

                  • nn

                    At least you are not blaming Elop.

                    • Janne

                      As the CEO of Nokia it is Elop’s fault, of course. They knew what they were getting into. This is one of the downsides of the post-Feb11 world. There are others too.

              • Dr.Smart

                And I do wonder, how come LGs and HTCs and others don’t have this Qualcomm shortage, but only Nokia?
                I don’t really know the answer but in general it seems that having to go all in for one vendor is a huge mistake.

                • Janne

                  All WP manufacturers have this shortage, even Samsung.

                  • arts

                    LG especially. Their Nexus 4 is affected badly.

                  • nn

                    Doesn’t look like big shortage of WP8 phones to me.

                    • Janne

                      Samsung didn’t even get the ATIV S out in Q4.

                    • nn

                      Samsung was never big fan of WP, I guess they decided they won’t bother with WP8, at lest for now. I don’t think Samsung would have problem to strong arm suppliers and get before other manufacturers.

                    • Janne

                      I guess anything is possible in a world where fingers are not pointed so easily. ;)

              • tom

                WHy other manufacturers are not reporting that level of shartage in that case, anyone using same cpu and most do.

        • Dr.Smart

          Delivery problem..pooh. So much for the Elop’s vaunted “execution” prowess.

    • Janne

      Dr. Smart:

      Lumia 920 was sold out for most of December in most stores with only sporadic drips of stock arriving. According to many retailers I spoke to it was selling better than any Nokia in a long time, they just didn’t get anywhere near enough of them.

      • Dr.Smart

        Your statement is more paradoxical than Epimenides (liar paradox). If “for most of December in most stores with only sporadic drips of stock arriving” is true, then how can it be selling well? No stock means no sale.. no?

        • Jens

          Dr. Smart,
          I think Nokia has been shellshocked, and maybe did not have the guts to commit 100% to the 920, after having taken a beating in the market for a while.
          They were probably caught by surprise, when they actually did have a hit on their hands.
          You’re right, no stock menas no sale, but we should not forget that many retailers have been taking pre-orders.
          But none of us will know until Jan. 24. It’s alwasy fun to speculate afcourse ;-).

          • Dr.Smart

            Yep. Will see what the hard number turns out to be.

        • Janne

          That is the feel of the retailers I spoke to. Overwhelming demand in face of very limited stock. Everything coming in selling out faster than before… That was their feel. No need to pry out logical fallacies.

          One said, the Lumia 920 “myy kuin siimaa”. And when can you recall Verkkokauppa.com still after month and a half listing “minus over 25″ (if the amount is over 25 they just say over 25) for all Lumia 920 colors with not even pre-orders fulfilled yet?

          • Dr.Smart

            Since when feeling is transmitted as concrete fact.. “selling more blah blah”?

            And if I recall correctly, you bash people if they are not able to produce concrete evidence right away (but always in the context of defending “new Nokia”).

            And now you are saying that your feeling of the retailers’ positive feeling about the sales constitute a concrete evidence for Nokia doing very well?

            Still absurd.

            • Janne

              I am saying that the retailers transformed their feelings to text and told me what I said they told me. I am not claiming they offered me numbers, hence I’m saying that was their feel.

              Feel fee to think the retailers are saying absurd things, but that they said. And me having to roam the entire frigging pk-seutu to find a couple of Lumia 920s is testament enough to me for the lack of availability part.

              • Dr.Smart

                And how many L920 do you buy? I recall you saying that you have several already? Have you won lottery? Why are you spending your own money to buy many of the same phones to give away. A promotion of some sort? If you are not working for Nokia, that is even more deranged.

            • Janne

              By the way, I don’t think Nokia is doing well.

              I just think they would sell more Nokia Lumia 920s in Finland than they have sold due to lack of availability.

              • Dr.Smart

                Now pulling a Tomi again. Retro-correcting your statement. Technically true maybe (in the sense that you did not say huge sales) Ah but you did say it was doing better than before (Symbian devices I presume) last year (or for a long time). Shall we look up how many Symbian devices were sold around the same time last year in Finland and the year before? Even granting Lumia sells better than Symbian (which I don’t), why do you get so much kick out of kicking Symbian in the face which is lying down belly up 4/5th dead any way?
                What is your agenda man?

                • Dr.Smart

                  Correction: I mean Lumia does sell better than Symbian now but I doubt that L920 sale would have been higher than Symbian models in the past years.

                  • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                    Higher? Like what models?

                    We don’t know how many N8 phones was sold. We don’t have numbers for most of the Symbian phones.

                    Even ‘MeeGo’ N9 sales were never announced.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      Precisely! Brilliant! I accept that. Likewise there is no ground for claiming that L920 was selling more than previous Symbian model. That’s my beef with Janne.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      Most models.

                      We know how many units the 5800 sold and we know how many Symbian^3 phones were sold.

                      We know the ASP and we know that Symbian was losing market share.

                    • rstyknight17

                      Yes , we do know how many N8s have been sold . Go to Wikipedia`s list of best selling phones , I believe the figure is over 11 million …

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      And Wikipedia got that information from where?

                • Janne

                  No, one retailer said 920 is selling better than any other Nokia in a long, long time. That was his words, not mine. Maybe it was true for his store or it was just his feel.

                  I never thought you’d try to make so wide interpretations from the reports of one (albeit active) end-user (me). I’m just reporting my experience. How you can expect me to have some store sample size of hundreds is beyond me.

                  • Dr.Smart

                    Ah you cunning man! So if you don’t believe their stories as absolute facts, please don’t frigging present them as some sort of authority.

                    • Janne

                      No… Frankly I never thought it was under ANY dispute Lumia 920 availability has been less than demand in Finland. Operator and Verkkokauppa.com statements say so, which I find way more indicative than anything.

                      I just added my own experiences, which are quite large for one person due to my active Christmas shopping…

                      Are you really saying there are no significant shortages of Lumia 920 in Finland?

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      The so called shortages of 920 models are just as bad as Nokia had with 808 in the summer.

                      Some stores didn’t have those but it happens all the time.

                      You were able to get an 920 just as easily you were able to get 808 in the summer.

                      That is if someone really wanted one.

                  • Dr.Smart

                    On careful reading of your comment. Ah now .. it was just one retailer! How pathetic.

                    No you were trying to make a point and you employed a rhetorical device called “argument by innuendo” — “according to blah blah blah”

                    I grant that you are good rhetorician, but in the sense of pamphleteering.

                    • Janne

                      You are very combative it seems.

                      Yes, one shop said it was selling better than any other Nokia for a long time. Another said “myy kuin siimaa”. Third said it was finally good to have a Nokia that was easy to sell and lamented not getting enough. All said they were not getting enough to satisfy demand.

                      These are not my evidence. They are my experiences. Seriously, I don’t think any further evidence is needed beyond what operators and major retailers have said to Finnish media on this.

                      I don’t know how much more it would have sold, I’m just saying we can’t in Finland sufficiently conclude a trend from not being December number one… Because lack of availability in Finland is pretty clear.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      You don’t even know what I’m criticizing you for. I’m criticizing you for making a jab at the old Nokia (better sales than previous models) without substantiating it. I’m not saying there is no demand or shortage. I’m saying that you cannot claim, in your eagerness to vindicate the new Nokia, that L920 is selling better (in quantity I suppose) while maintaining that there is an extreme shortage.

                      I’m catching you for the double standard.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      One big retailer can tell you if there is a serious problem with the sales of the product.

                      One retailer can’t tell if it’s selling well of very well.

                      One huge retailer can tell that 808 is not a very interesting product for the consumers. They have them in stock but those units are not selling almost at all. That tells us that 808 is not a success.

                      However the same retailer can’t tell almost anything about 920 sales.

                    • Janne

                      Yes, I don’t know what the heck you are talking about. You make it chore to discuss anything because you read every word like devil reads the bible.

                      You don’t try to understand me, you want to argue. I wasn’t trying to claim Lumia sales records, but lack of availability. Reading my posts as a whole, that should be well clear.

                      You would have gotten this many messages ago had you wanted to really understand me rather than trip me with your silly word games.

                      My claim: lack of availability. My experience: MANY retailers reporting overwhelming sales vs. availability.

                      Hence, we can’t conclude a trend that Lumia 920 not showing higher in top lists is showing lessening Lumia interest in Finland, which was my point I responded to.

                      It doesn’t prove stellar sales potential either, just that demand is more than availability.

      • Dr.Smart

        Your absurd logic (no stock but good sales) plus your activity of asking many retailers about Nokia (“According to many retailers I spoke to ..”) make me wonder what your relationship is with Nokia?
        A mere fan that go out and ask hundreds of retailers about Nokia’s sales status? Don’t kid yourself. Or is it that you are committing a gross exaggeration having asked 3~4 retailers and then saying that “many” retailers? –> exaggeration and hyperbole that you accuse other people of?

        Do explain if you can.

        • Janne

          I have spoken to maybe a dozen or more retailers in my attempts to source a few Lumia 920s in the Helsinki capital area over the holidays (e.g. I gave two as gifts). I had to look around for them a lot. And of course I read Finnish forums and talk to people and hear others telling the same.

          I still don’t work for Nokia.

          • Dr.Smart

            No you said you talked to many retailers in support of your argument. Thus I assumed that your sample size was not as pathetic as a dozen in around Helsinki (assuming that much were even true as well). And now reading people’s hearsay in around the forum constitute you “speaking to the many retailers” .. A distortion worse than Tomi’s perhaps?

            • http://nokiahighdemand.blogspot.com/ Joseph

              Just look gs stats data it shows big growth of windows mobile platform almoust 20 percent of whole market, growth from October 53 percent, that is true data not false….

              • Dr.Smart

                I’m not denying or supporting anything. Look I’m just pointing out the absurd and suspicious (But always self-righteous) demeanor of Janne.

                • Janne

                  Ah yes.

                  • Janne

                    Dr. Smart and yasu, nowadays saying nothing, contributing nothing but innuendo to the discussion.

                    • yasu

                      Janne says:

                      Dr. Smart and yasu, nowadays saying nothing, contributing nothing but innuendo to the discussion.

                      That’s an interesting post: you quoted yourself to post an ad hominem, even including someone that wasn’t part of the discussion.

                      What the guy who wrote http://mynokiablog.com/2013/01/06/mnb-rg-lumia-selling-well-in-finland/comment-page-1/#comment-738680 would think?

                      However, it warms my heart that I’m in your thoughts even when out of sight.

                    • Janne

                      The reason for my two-part reply was a bugged out webform or some ad doing weird things and posting before it was time.

                      Dr. Smart’s “I’m not offering any opinion, I’m just challenging your message” stance did remind me of your position here lately.

                      That said, it was uncalled for on my part to drag you into this. I apologize.

                    • yasu

                      Janne said:

                      That said, it was uncalled for on my part to drag you into this. I apologize.

                      No worries, Janne, it can happen to the best of us.

                      See you in a future debate.

            • Bloob

              Well, there are analaysts that speak to ~30 AT&T stores in the US and draw conclusions from that. :D

              • Dr.Smart

                yeah :)

              • Dr.Smart

                So those analysts are self-promoting falsifying asses. But our Janne ?? Granting dozen as mammoth sample size (noooot), where is the methodology? What is the confidence level? Oh no, it was based on his feeling of the feeling of the retailers!

                • Bloob

                  I too, have definetly gotten the feeling that the demand for 920 has been great in Finland, but don’t really have any data to back it up.

                  The lack of availability, and the existing queues prove that there is demand for more than Nokia delivered. How much more? *shrug*

                • Janne

                  I made no claims of sales success amounts, just lack of demand. It should be well obvious to anyone reading my posts as a whole instead of trying to read me with ill-intent.

                  I’m not stupid. How could some retailer guy know wider facts. I would never claim such a thing and a reasonable reader can not construe that from my discussion here. No way. Only with malicious intent can you read this thread and conclude that. I was merely contributing my experiences to the thread. That was the FEELING and answer off the sales people in all the stores I visited: more demand than availability.

                  Add to that the operator and retailer comments in Finnish media. Plus more stories in Finnish forums, I’d say the lack of availability is real and thus Finnish December top lists are not conclusive for 920.

            • Janne

              Dr. Smart: It is true. More than dozen probably. To buy a Lumia 920 for Christmas (several to be precise) meant going to store to store (calling too) many times over November and December. This was needed because places like Verkkokauppa.com have been unable to deliver even their pre-orders according to kurre from Verkkokauppa.com posting just a few days ago on MPF.

              Only way to buy a Lumia 920, unless you got lucky with a pre-order in some shop, was to hunt for it by calling and driving around a lot if some store got stock that day. And that I did and finally got what I needed, but I went to a lot of places! Every time was an opportunity to speak to retailers and also hear other customers tell their stories of “the hunt” when waiting for your turn. Quite few confessed how hard a time they were having or had finding them.

              Read places like Matkapuhelinfoorumi and you’ll get a story from the rest of the country.

              I’m the first to admit it is anecdotal. But I have *never* in my life of buying dozens of Nokia’s first day had this hard a time. I think last I had anything close was for the 7110.

              • Dr.Smart

                Back to the beginning. That you weren’t able to get L920 can mean either higher demand, limited stock, or both. But it doesn’t prove that L920 sold more than previous Nokia models, which you did say.
                One can argue anything based on feelings and anecdotes, but I think you demand higher standard from other commenters.

                • Peter L

                  When DNA (one of the big three operators in Finland) CEO was asked about Lumia 920 demand, he said that it was the biggest he’d seen for ANY Nokia model during last ten years. That’s a statement for you that is not anecdotal anymore.

                  He also added that the number of devices received were of normal amount for any product launch, comparable to iPhone 5 (example he himself used).

                  • Dr.Smart

                    So there is no shortage, lol

                  • Dr.Smart

                    If the stock of iPhone5 were comparable to L920, then how come iPhone5 managed to snatch higher places in Sonera (top1) and Elisa (top2) whereas the comparably stocked and insanely highly demanded L920 managed to sell less due to shortage.

                    Something doesn’t clasp. Maybe DNA CEO is pulling an AT&T.

                    • Peter L

                      Apple was able to keep the stock replenished after the launch while Nokia couldn’t. Simple as that.

                    • Bloob

                      Apple also had a full quarter.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      @Peter L.

                      I fail to see what your point is. Have I said that there was no shortage?
                      Have I said that there was no demand?

                      What I say is to counter Janne’s ridiculous assertion that you can have an extreme stock shortage of L920 while having a better sale than any of the previous models.

                    • Peter L

                      @Dr.Smart

                      How is that in any way ridiculous assertion?

                      Of course you can have better sales than any of the previous models while having extreme stock shortage at the same time. It’s just a question of demand.

                • Janne

                  Dr. Smart: You are reading me like the devil reads the bible. It was the comment of a retailer, not mine. It was a detail in my overall point of lack of availability. Nothing more.

                  • Dr.Smart

                    So you are saying that you were reporting an experience of yours as if you were reporting a picnic.. essentially devoid of any point.
                    That’s funny.

                    • Janne

                      Well, no, I was reporting my genuine experiences trying to buy Nokia products in Finland. Kind of relevant for this thread. I’d say there were shortages in Helsinki metropolitan area for sure!

                    • Svenkka

                      Just give it a rest, first you were amusing, now you just keep going in circles trying to tell black to white and embarrassing yourself.

                    • Dr.Smart

                      no no .. I have been waiting for an opportunity to get to the end of him.

                    • Janne

                      Dr. Smart:

                      no no .. I have been waiting for an opportunity to get to the end of him.

                      That’s real nice camraderie on a Nokia fan forum.

                      You may be succeeding, these personal attacks are sucking all the fun out of the hobby of participating at MNB.

                      Well, I hope you feel good about it, because I certainly don’t.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu

                      I bet neither of you really feel that great about this.

                      The reality is that we don’t have the numbers but we have something else. We have the forecast from the supreme priest of the Nokia religion.

                      Tomi Ahonen has foreseen how Nokia sold 2,5 million WP phones in Q4. It will be very interesting to see if ge got it right.

                      People blaming Elop are praising Tomi’s forecasts. They almost never thought he may be wrong. Or maybe they will say that after the Q4 results but not before?

                • Janne

                  Dr. Smart:

                • Janne

                  But it doesn’t prove that L920 sold more than previous Nokia models

                  Obviously true, I would never claim it would. That would be absurd, no single or even many retailers saying that could indicate it. I am *not* claiming that.

                  How many messages does it take for you to understand I was reporting lack of availability and sense of strong demand at the dealers? Nothing more was intended.

                  You just choose not to listen to me.

                  • Dr.Smart

                    I really hate your hit-and-run tactics. You try to give certain impression and when cornered you say that you were not precisely saying this or that. True technically, but in case you got away with it, you might have scored one, which was all you wanted.

                    • Janne

                      When cornered? I might give you that if I had somehow argued the point and then “turned coats” later, but you seem to read only one sentence of this whole thread and make prolonged commentary based on that when everything else I have said in immediate response should have made my message well and truly clear.

                      Had I wanted to leave some sort of mistaken impression, I would not have answered you at all. That would have been the end of it. But I didn’t and I don’t. I discussed with you, to give you and others accurate information from my shopping experience.

                      Communications too is an imperfect game. That’s why discussion happens, to get the true meaning of what people say. One sentence is easily misunderstood, but not a whole discussion, unless you want to believe the worst of the other person.

                      Look, do you think I spend excessive time on every comment I make? Of course not. I just jot my experiences or opinions down and post them. If misunderstood, I reply to clarify like I did in this case.

                      Clarifying immediately is definitely not the same thing as being cornered, changing response under pressure or turning coats. Clarifications are normal everyday discussion.

                      Your problem is that you believe the worst in me. Other may believe I am some kind of WP fan. I am neither that worst or a WP fan. I am just a Nokia fan, trying to contribute my part – from my part of the world – to this site.

                      Once you stop reading me like the devil reads the bible, you’ll see I mean well and there is nothing sinister about my posts. When I’m not clear about something in your view, fine, let me explain instead of assuming the worst.

            • Janne

              Really, what kind of a sample size could you reasonably expect from one person? I’d say mine is much larger than an average person.

              • Dr.Smart

                Unless you are employed in certain ways by a certain company.
                If not, please don’t try sound like a market surveyor.

                • who knows

                  Do you have any clue what you sound like, Dr. Smart?

                  • Dr.Smart

                    yeah.. like Janne when he was attacking me before.

                • Janne

                  I am neither. Just a Nokia user and a smalltime stock owner.

                  • Dr.Smart

                    That is what I have my doubt about. I’m trying to expose the real you.

                    • Janne

                      I can see that.

                      Your doubts are, though, unfounded.

                      And once you forget those doubts, you can read me more clearly and not see ill-intent in everything I write.

                      People who actually read me, can see me very critical of many things Nokia and Elop. Because, well, I am.

                      Those who want to see ill-intent think of it only as a smokescreen or being sneaky.

                      It is actually very scary how this happens, especially in online discussions. People thinking the worst of each other.

                      One can’t really “win” either way. By offering full reportoire of my opinion (including criticism), I’m accused of being sneaky and lifting a smokescreen.

                      By correcting misinterpretations of what I wrote (perhaps hastily or was read hastily), I am accused turning coats or hit-and-run tactics (wouldn’t hit and run mean I don’t respond with clarifications?).

                      The only thing one can, apparently, safely be in an online discussion is pro or contra someting 100%.

                      There is no in-between in some people’s eyes online. There are only fanboys of one faction to or another.

                      But in life there’s always that in-between. And I am there with my opinions on Nokia.

                      I have no argument with you, or desire to make this personal as you clearly think of me. I am trying to discuss and communicate. The best end-result I’d see is some mutual understanding, nothing more.

            • who knows

              “Thus I assumed that your sample size was not as pathetic as a dozen in around Helsinki (assuming that much were even true as well).”

              How is this Jannes fault? He can’t control your assumptions. Calm down, go out for a walk and then start typing.

              • Dr.Smart

                What would you assume if a bozo claims that he talked to many people and thus he drew so and so conclusion from it. (that’s what Janne has done by innuendo)

                • Janne

                  The only conclusion I claim was my experience supporting the media reports of lack of availability.

                  I needed to buy Lumia 920s for Christmas presents to relatives etc. OK? Have you got people in your life whom you know wanted certain gifts and you’d go to quite a bit of effort to acquire those? I saw more than one such person in my rounds, buying phones for kids etc. telling how they’d gone from store to store to find them. People can get a bit desperate this time of year, with that deadline looming. Plus obviously I was hunting a phone for myself, which I didn’t manage to get on launch day – historical, that too.

                  I visited every operator shop in every major shopping mall in Helsinki, Espoo, Vantaa plus token other stores. There are four of these shopping malls, each with usually three operator shops. That is around 12 shops. Because the shops are in these large malls next to each other, the only thing that takes time is waiting in the queue. Add to that token major retailers (Nokia Aleksanterinkatu, Stockmann, Gigantti, Expert, Verkkokauppa.com etc.). Some of these are even located in or near those shopping malls, so in reality this was not any sort of impossible logistical excericse.

                  I did this round fully once and partially a couple of times. I spoke to many sales persons and listened other customers to speak to them while I waited for my turn (you know how long the queues are in Finnish operator shops). Now that I’m actually counting, I must have spoken to over 20 salespersons. I also called different stores at different times, because I wasn’t buying all these devices at once but over November and December.

                  I got the Lumia 920s I needed, but not without considerable effort and most of the time being told the story I am reporting here: more demand than availability. Some dealers embellished that with the quotes I have posted, but of course those are just the views of those persons/retailers and not statistics.

                  One more time, my point was to add experiences to the lack of availability claim, so that we could put December’s operator sales in Finland to a context. I visited their shops, they couldn’t sell me most of the time. Nothing more was intended on my part, just add my experiences to this.

      • Bloob

        920 was sold out for the year on every retailer ( not sure about DNA ) in the first week of December. There is still a queue for it on Sonera at least.

        Qualcomm certainly had some difficulty shipping enough S4 SoCs, but supposedly that is solved, so I don’t know where Nokias current delivery problems originate.

        • Dr.Smart

          I have no doubt about “out of stock” or queue. I’m saying that only a fool can claim that you can have both a very limited stock and a bumper sale at the same time.

          As for Qualcomm shortage, I do wonder the veracity, or if true why in the light of other vendors (LG, HTC) having no such problem.

          • KeiZka
            • Dr.Smart

              Ok, thx for the reference.

              Still a question:
              “TSMC says that the shortages will improve in the fourth quarter, and “market demand is likely to be satisfied in 2013.”

              Wasn’t L920 outted in the fourth quarter? Is Nokia shortchanged by Qualcomm?

              • Bloob

                ” Without naming any participating foundries, Mollenkopf carefully reiterated that the supply struggled to match the “tremendous demand” of the new 28nm Krait-based products at the time, but he thinks Qualcomm will be out of that problem starting this month. “It was something that we had this year and last fiscal year, but moving forward, I don’t see that to be an issue,” said Mollenkopf.”

                - Dec 5th, 2012

                http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/05/qualcomm-coo-steve-mollenkopf/

                Although, I too wonder if there is still shortage, or if Nokias ramp up is slow ( although they are constantly releasing in new areas as well ), or if it is not that simple to ramp up manufacturing, or if there is some other problem.

          • Janne

            Dr. Smart:

            I have no doubt about “out of stock” or queue.

            Then we have no disagreement. That’s all I think can be construed as any kind of fact at this point. Rest is just experiences of individual people.

            That said, because there was more demand than availability, December operator top lists for Finland can’t tell the true demand for Lumia 920. It might have been a little more or significantly more with better availability.

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  • DJ

    Finland population = 5.4 million, being first doesn’t mean a lot. Report when Lumia is first in USA because that is what counts nothing else.

    • Bloob

      First in europe would be quite good enough. First in China would be best. First in Finland; it’s the first step.

      • DJ

        What USA buy, rest of the world buys. Nokia ignored USA when they used Symbian.

        • dr_zorg

          Your logic is flawed. During the times when Nokia ignored USA, they sold more smartphones than all of their competitors combined.

          Now, when they are dancing to the US tune, they are at death’s door.

          WP offers nothing to Apple and Android (and even less to Symbian) users.

          But I do agree on one point, being 1st in Finland (and even that is untrue!) counts for naught.

          • Janne

            I actually somewhat agree with this. I don’t think overly bowing towards the U.S. is wise for Nokia and dr_zorg is certainly right it hasn’t brought the results.

            That said, the presence/requirement of trend apps does change the dynamic a little. When the headline apps come first to the U.S. ecosystems (or come from U.S. developers) that does put pressure on ecosystems that may not be so strong in the U.S. in a way that wasn’t possible before. U.S. does set many trends in the western world through media influence for example, so U.S. app trends too tend to spill over.

        • Bloob

          Not really, the US is still largely iPhone-land, while the rest of the world is more inclined to Android. Similarly XBox is the most popular console in the US, but PS3 and Wii have that honor elsewhere.

          • DJ

            Not true, USA is Android lend with like 50% market share. Symbian was way ahead of IPhone or Android when they come out in USA in terms of capabilities and if Nokia had good PR and good market share in USA we would still have a Symbian. Before IPhone people in USA didn`t even know what smartphone is, market was ruled by dumb phones.

  • dr_zorg

    Last year’s articles rehashed? :)

    Yeah, Lumia is always “selling well”, in Finland :D

    Year on year. While oddly enough it’s hard to find any on the street. Though, of course, it must be that the product is so precious that the happy owners only use them in the safety of their homes :D

    • Janne

      I see Lumias in the streets of Helsinki all the time, a lot of them too.

      • Keizka

        Ditto for Tampere.

  • arts

    This whole comment orgy is gayyyyyyy.

  • rustyknight17

    For proof of how WP8 Lumias r selling , I refer youse to Ewan Spence`s AAWP article on thta subject . Oh and check out the AdDuplex figures as awell as my reply to Janne in the MNB telegraph article ../.

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