Nokia Sales “Exceeded Expectations” With 86.3 Million Total Units; 4.4 Million Lumias, 9.3 Million Ashas

| January 10, 2013 | 449 Replies

Nokia seem to be quite happy with their latest sales figures, seeing how they released some figures before their quarterly earning report. Nokia claims to have delivered “underlying profitability and that sales unit delivered better-than-expected results,

We are pleased that Q4 2012 was a solid quarter where we exceeded expectations and delivered underlying profitability in Devices & Services and record underlying profitability in Nokia Siemens Networks,” Nokia CEO Stephen Elop said today in a statement. “We focused on our priorities and as a result we sold a total of 14 million Asha smartphones and Lumia smartphones while managing our costs efficiently, and Nokia Siemens Networks delivered yet another very good quarter.

Nokia estimates the net sales in Devices & Services business to be 3.9 billion euros ($5.1 billion). I had my finger on 7 Million lumias for the quarter, so this is a bit of a letdown to me, but if this means that the next quarter won’t be in the red then I’m happy.

taking a look into the numbers the total sales of Asha devices were 9.3 Million which is quite impressive, while smartphone sales were 6.6 Million 4.4 of which were Lumias, leaving 2.2 Million for the what Symbian slaes occured besides the super popular Asha smartphones the 308 & 309 (I think the 311 as well?)

- Mobile Phones net sales of approximately EUR 2.5 billion, with total volumes of 79.6 million units of which 9.3 million units were Asha full touch smartphones.
- Smart Devices net sales of approximately EUR 1.2 billion, with total volumes of 6.6 million units of which 4.4 million units were Nokia Lumia smartphones.

However Nokia have forecast that their profits for next quarter (Q1 2013) will be negative 2% stating the cause as:

“seasonality and competitive environment are expected to have a negative impact on the first quarter 2013 underlying profitability for Devices & Services, compared to the fourth quarter 2012.”

The full quarterly earning is set to be released on January 24th; but this pretty much answers any questions we had.


Nokia’s Stocks seem to have jumped after this announcement gaining 17% in pre-market trades:




Category: Lumia, MeeGo, Nokia, Symbian, Windows Phone

About the Author ()

Hey, my name's Ali- Currently a fifth (and final) year Dental Student from Chicago; studying in Jordan. I love all sorts of gadgets almost as much as I love my cookies! Be sure to follow my Twitter handle @AliQudsi and Subcribe to my Youtube for the latest videos - no pressure. Thanks.

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  1. Bloob says:

    Lumia sales pretty much in line with my original prediction, ie. pretty darn bad. I would have expected to see better results based on the total WP-estimations and Ballmer’s comments, but nope.

    While Q1 is a difficult quarter, Nokia better get those Lumias moving out at a better rate.

    Good job NSN and the S40 people though.

    • jiipee says:

      Excellent job from NSN. 15% profit is close to amazing on a market where the competition (excluding Ericsson) get government subsidies in the form of cheap loans and are able to compete with prices.

  2. Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

    Yes, Asha was selling very well and Lumia had over 400% of growth YoY.

    It could have been better but this is nice.

    Corporations are probably buying most Symbian phones so Nokia has done good job with keeping up those sales.

    • dss says:

      Corporations buying Symbian ? Where do you live .. ?

      • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

        Someone was buying those phones they sold in Q4 2012.

        It’s very hard to believe that too many people would be buying Symbian phones for private use. Some companies may buy Symbian phones just because they used to do that in the past.

        What is your guess about who was buying those Symbian phones?

        • Marc Aurel says:

          Camera enthusiasts are still buying the 808 and people in the emerging economies the 500 and 603, although the latter seems to be out of production now. There were also many 700 and 701 devices sold at firesale prices — just like WP 7.5 Lumias I might add — which must have found their buyers due to low prices.

        • mirco says:

          Maybe this is really the 808, the C5-00 and the E6 or E72. Just a guess but those phones certainly have their niche. The 808 has its camera (and mindshare of Symbian die hards), the C5 is one of the last maybe even THE last candybar smartphone and finally the E6/E72 also have a formfactor which has its fans.
          Well… on the other hand… 2M is quite a lot. Wasn’t there also a series of special Symbian phones for china, was it?

        • dss says:

          An educated consumer would buy a Symbian based device over a WP based device depending on their needs.

          Why would a corporation buy a bunch of dead phones ?

          • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

            Maybe there really are that many people wanting to have unreliable and lagging Symbian phone.

            Or maybe there are enough people buying those for some another reason.

            After all, I got the 808 because of the native resolution. Never going to use it as a smartphone.

            The sales of 808 units? Well. Hard to believe they are selling too many of those.

  3. viktor von d. says:

    it’s important cause untill q3 they keprt falling,and falling and falling, further away from were they were at the end of 2010. in q3 2012 they stoped the folling, losses were diminished quarter after quarter since q1 2012. and now in q42012 they finally started to move up again even if it’s slow.

    i don’t understand the 4.4 million. i believed it would have been 6, with 4 mill wp8 and the rest wp7.
    also i don’t understand the warning for q1 2013 with 2% in the negative(and +/- 6% margin). why would they expect low sales, if they are finally able to ramp up production for the 920 and 820, plus there is the newcomer 520, plus more markets added, ending in some countries of exclusivity, china and india will pack the devices starting this quarter. if they don’t make it to 6-7 million this quarter it’s kinda bad for me.

    oh well, at least the drop stopped, the share price is going down,and depending on what they will show at mwc things will look even better i guess for the media and investors

    • nn says:

      I think the negative outlook for handsets unit simply follows from the fact that WP phones aren’t going to grow much, if at all, and that the mobile phones result is actually pretty bad. Selling 80M means year on year decline of 15 % from 94M (and if we would listen to wisdom of some and started count touch Ashas as smarpthones, then it would be 25 % crash). The mobile subunit continues to going down fast, and I don’t think Ashas can mask that for long. I would be surprised if they can keep increasing Asha touch sales even for the next four quarters.

      • Muhs says:

        actually, having a negative outlook and then show up with good news is better than positive outlook and then show up with bad results.
        that’s what happened with q4. negative outlook and good results and probably this will happen in q1

        • nn says:

          Except you can’t knowingly game the market and lie like that. The expectation that Q1 won’t be better than Q4 wouldn’t be something controversial even for non-imploding Nokia.

          • Viipottaja says:

            Well, a big part of the negative outlook for Q1 must also be the expectation that Symbian sales will continue to tank and possibly virtually stop in Q1. 2.2million was still 16% of the smartphones (including Ashas) they sold, and 33% if we exclude Ashas.

            As for the lying part: yes, they would be, but strictly technically speaking only if they were to exceed the upper end of their guidance range (“negative 2% plus minus 4%”). :)

            • nn says:

              Um no. If you think, based on available evidence, that the result will be positive 1 % you really can’t claim it will be -2 % and add ranges. You can hope for better results, but report what will happen as best you can.

              • Oslík says:

                Apple did exactly this (just much worse) for many years and it was their winning strategy.

              • Capedonut says:

                It’s hard to make predictions, especially about the future.

              • Viipottaja says:

                I know, that I used the “strictly technically speaking” wording and the smiley :) at the end. :)

                Of course, if they would really already think they are more likely to hit zero or whatever other number they should provide guidance accordingly.

            • Oslík says:

              Quarter after quarter after quarter Apple underestimated their results (intentionally IMHO). And investors ALWAYS rewarded it.

              Until recently…

              • nn says:

                How do you know they did it intentionally? Frankly, there are better and technically legal ways how to manipulate PR around earnings. See Welch and GE.

    • A-S-D says:

      Nokia sold 4.4 million Windows Phone devices. No more, no less. That includes all of them – Windows Phone 7 and 8. I would guess that this would equate to around 2.5 million WP8 and 1.9 million WP7, most of the WP7 being Lumia 610s and 800s and some Lumia 510s (not released everywhere yet), 710s and 900s. From this I would guess Nokia sold at least 500,000 Lumia phones in the US which is actually quite good from an ASP (average selling price) point of view.

      Similarly the 4.4 million is good from an ASP perspective which is most important for investors and board members while for fanboys its the amount sold. For fanboys this is a poor/below expectations result and an acceptable number would be 6-8 million, up to 10 million would be good and anything over that would be great/excellent.

      Nokia sold 6.6 million smartphones this quarter, down from 7.2 million last quarter however despite this sales (in money value) grew! Apple overtook Nokia’s sales in 2009/2010 not in the number of products but the huge amount of money they made off each. Higher profit margins are also an indication of sales of higher end products which is easier to translate into increased sales of the lower models in the coming quarters instead of trying to go the other way (being low-end model king and then try to sell high end models). Thus this is a good result.

      The reason why Elop may be expecting losses in the next quarter may have to do with a slow down in sales in the US and many western countries in Q1 where Nokia sells most of its high-end devices so profit margins will be lower so we may see a loss. I doubt it though and I think he’s trying to give bad news which he can then exceed in turn increasing share price.

      I think Nokia will see a small profit in the devices sector and whilst we may not see more than 10 million sales or anything like that, Nokia will definitely sell more than the 4.4 million it sold this quarter. I wouldn’t be surprised if Nokia almost doubled that number which is possible considering the release of the Lumia 620, wider release of the 510, 820 and 920 and actual availability of the 920. Anything less than 5 million will be worrying however if profit margins can be maintained, the board will be fine with it.

      Finally we need to consider that the new phones did not make it to the market until almost halfway through the quarter and the 920 suffered stock shortages so this is definitely a good result. However, there poor foresight from Elop and the board who should have ordered more components in the first place which could have quite possibly seen sales of 5 million or more (whilst still accounting for the component shortages which may have seen greater sales)and even greater profits thanks to these high end models.

      • migo says:

        Your guess is most likely wrong. The Lumia 710 is the best selling WP7 Lumia. Not any other model, so you already have WP7 distribution wrong, no reason to put stock in any of your other guesses.

        • joker says:

          Very good analysis. Adding one more thing: Lumia 920 has to make up the decline of WP7 devices. WP8 is the real start point. WP7 is just temp setup.

        • A-S-D says:

          Lumia 710 WAS the best selling. Sales are slowing down for it and the 800 and 610 have been outselling it.

          Only an idiot would pick and 1 small thing to try and bring down a whole argument.

          Regardless, I said they were guesses. Go and prove me wrong, it makes no difference other than us having solid statistics so we can stop speculating and know for sure. Those are MY guesses. If yours are different so be it.

        • Peter L says:

          710 _was_ the best selling Lumia if we consider the current device distribution in the Adduplex data, but 800 has already almost reached it due to it’s more aggressive pricing during recent months.

          710 is absolutely not the best selling Lumia currently.

    • dom says:

      Q4 is the best always because of Christmas. They expect bad sales because Q1 is always difficult. Most phones are sold Christmas time and there should be no production issues then!

  4. says:

    now that’s a good Q4 result :)

    imagine the sales figures when all the lumia range are available in all markets and no supply issues, wow!

    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

      Yes, and Tomi Ahonen was forecasting how Nokia will sell only 2,5 million Lumia phones in Q4 2012.

      This was a huge success compared to that forecast.

      • viktor von d. says:

        stop with that guy. he is just a douchebag. he is like that girlfriend you broke off with 5 years ago and she still scratches the paint on your car to this day.

        hey tomi you stoped working for nokia 7-6 years ago. let it go man.just get on with your life. i get it you like the attention from all the linux lovers and ant-ms talibans, but still, find a purpose with your life. you were complaining in one of your posts that people in the industry don’t take your advices seriously when you make your predictions. maybe take a break, do some soul searching, and improve what you are doing. maybe you will finally get a true job, and stop being just a ”consultant” with nothing better to do than to just piss on nokia. you can even take eldar with you

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


          Eldar is actually better forecaster from those two. Eldar is also way more honest compared to Tomi Ahonen.

          I’m tempted to forget him, but unfortunately he is the cult leader for the old school Nokia religion and the feelings of this cult can be seen from the numbers he keeps posting.

          Here is a forecast from Tomi Ahonen. This was posted 24.12. so it’s pretty fresh.

          “Like I said, the Kantar numbers are very accurate in short-term forecasting smartphone OS platform performance for the current quarter. And these findings suggest total Nokia smartphone sales of 6.8 million units for Q4 which they also suggest, would split 4.3 million on Symbian (and MeeGo), and 2.5 million on all Lumia, old and new, on Windows Phone.”

      • Francis says:

        I don’t know how you get 2.5m, but this is what Tomi’s figure in November 2012:

        “Nokia Q4 smartphone sales are likely in the range of 4.8 million to 6.8 million this quarter, Q4 Christmas quarter of 2012. That would be roughly 31% of Symbian/MeeGo sales, 25% of old Lumia sales, and the remainder, 44% of new Lumia WP 8 sales. Nokia’s total smartphone market share is headed to something around 3% now, and the Lumia series, Windows Phone based Nokia smartphones would have around 2% market share.”

        If you don’t like Tomi, it is ok, but don’t “create” false figure for him and mislead us here.

  5. Ofentse says:

    Ayooooba Nokia Ayoba, Ayoba Mr. Elop ayooooooba…
    The best is yet to come

  6. dss says:

    4 mil. is good.. better than I thought, but still way short of where it should be to sustain this giant, despite all the cuts Elop made.

    Asha doing very well.. bravo!

  7. Chris W says:

    I also expected sales of about 7m Lumia’s, but I suppose the WP8 devices were only available for two thirds of the quarter.
    Still, it’s the best quarter so far, and it is still fairly early days as a product.
    Well dome Mr Elop, it’s easy to criticize the decisions he made, but none of us know what would have happened had Nokia not gone WP.

    • dss says:

      You mean the best quarter post Microsoft.. yes… it is, but that isn’t saying much.

      Nokia used to sell 16 million + smartphones per quarter. When they get back to that number, or exceeded it, since WP is so much better than anything they had before it.. we can talk about how successful their new strategy is.

      And yes, I know that the market conditions were different, but at the time Symbian had to fight against its current rivals (Windows Mobile, RIM, Palm, etc.) just like Windows phone has to now..

  8. zymo says:

    I don’t know why you are so happy about these numbers? Were are looking at the strongest Quarter of the year, where most of the devices are sold! If these were the numbers of Q1 or Q1 then I would be fine with that, BUT not with Q4. 4 Million Lumias sold in Q4 is a joke. A week ago people here were expecting 9-10 Million devices and now the same guys are thrilled about those numbers and saying it is a great success.
    Nokia’s WP “experiment” has failed. My prediction for Q1 2013 are 2,8 Million Lumia’s and even less in Q2 (in the anticipation of SGS4 and IP5s).

    • suabesh says:

      Though I agree with you on some part that the current numbers are below expectations, your future predictions are a joke. What makes you think that we will not see a successor to N920 by mid 2013 ?

      • zymo says:

        One single device won’t have a big impact on those quarter results, since were are not talking about an Iphone or a Galaxy S device. Just wait and you’ll see my prediction come true.

    • dss says:

      Apple sells more iPhone 5 in 10 days than Nokia does 6 different kinds of lumias @ different price points for 3 months…

    • Hosh333 says:

      That’s exactly the point an example of this:
      Samsung sold 15 million Galaxy S III smartphones an during the Q4. That’s a single device outselling a whole Nokias phone range.

      • viktor von d. says:

        wrong.since launch galaxy s3 sold aprox 30 million devices. those 15 million is the whole galaxy brand from low end to high end and only in one quarter.

        by the way there are 17 phones in the galaxy line-up most of them with full availablity only has 4-5 wphones that are still being made and half of them only became available in the second half of q4 and nly in 6 countries with low stocks.
        a little bit of perspective always helps

    • dr_zorg says:

      When Nokia sold 4-5 million S^3 devices in Q4 2010 (let me remind you all that S^3 was just debuted in 2010, and was by no means all of Symbian on the market), all these MSFT shills here kept saying that this was a “bad result”. Now in 2012 with similar numbers for ALL Lumia devices and they are praising it to the skies. What a joke.

      • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

        The growth for WP was over 400%. That’s nice.

        Just decide if 5 million of Symbian^3 devices was a great success or if it was not.

        The problem for Nokia was that Symbian was destined to fail because Symbian was losing market share for years.

        Maybe Symbian ruined Nokia’s reputation, who knows?

        • nn says:

          Well, at this point Lumias can’t keep up with market growth and are losing market share too, and that is if we generously skip Q3 as outlier. But I guess at least nominal sales are increasing, right?

        • xxx says:

          There were 4 mln sold s^3 devices (Nokia N8, C7, C6-01) in Q4 2010. If you add s60v5 and s60v3 then the result will be: 25 mln symbian smartphones in Q4 2010. Compare symbian sales in Q4 2010 and very low sales volume of WP in Q4 2012. Today smartphone market has is 2 times bigger than 2010.

          • dss says:

            Windows Phone will never reach those Symbian volumes, simply because it will never be able to control the market the way Symbian did. And.. this is one of those instances where you can use the word “never” pretty comfortably.

            Maybe one day combined sales from all the OEMs would reach the 25+ mil. mark.. but not just from Nokia.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              That’s possible.

              Unless the price of hardware goes down in the future and Nokia will be able to sell WP for under 100€.

              • jiipee says:

                with 15$ per device license it can be tough. If MS lowers the license, then its possible. The good thing is that WP7 is fluid even with more limited hw. They need to decrease the reliance to internet connection,which can be hard, if the live tiles are updated on MS servers. Cant remember how it went.

                Interesting to see the pricing for Firefox ZTE.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  The 15$ as a fixed price is probably only guessing.

                  Nokia will sell much more those when the hardware becomes really cheap. It may take some time.

                  • jiipee says:

                    It is quessing as far as I understood.

                    you can make your own estimation based on 1B$ annual minimum license fee divided by different total sales volumes. Then make your guess what was Nokia’s estimate.

                    Devices a year Avg license
                    10 000 000 100
                    15 000 000 67
                    20 000 000 50
                    25 000 000 40
                    30 000 000 33
                    35 000 000 29
                    40 000 000 25
                    45 000 000 22
                    50 000 000 20
                    55 000 000 18
                    60 000 000 17

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      In the past Microsoft has been selling some kind of volume licenses for Windows laptop manufacturers. If Nokia had one of those, they could make some nice low end phones.

                    • kues says:

                      Where does that “1B$ annual minimum license fee” you are sometimes referring to come from? Never read/heard about it. Is it or is it said to be part of the MS-Nokia treaty?

                      According to the 150 million Symbians Nokia estimated to sell after 11211, they must have estimated a minimum of 25 million devices per quarter after full ‘migration’ to Windows Phone. 25+25+25+25+20+15+10+5=150 make up for 8 quarters/2 years of the transition period estimated.

                    • Jiipee says:

                      @Ere. I dont follow MS that much except their business solutions. That would make sense. Have you seen any other OEM stating that they will release WP7 devices? Since elop himself has said that Nokia has found ways to optimize WP7 so that they can push WP7 to lower price points, it expect the wP7 license fees to drop heavily. If not, it does not sound like a true partnership.


                      Our agreement with Microsoft includes platform support payments from Microsoft to us as well as software royalty payments from us to Microsoft. In the second quarter 2012, we received a quarterly platform support payment of USD 250 million (approximately EUR 196 million). Under the terms of the agreement governing the platform support payments, the amount of each quarterly platform support payment is USD 250 million. We have a competitive software royalty structure, which includes annual minimum software royalty commitments. Minimum software royalty commitments are paid quarterly. Over the life of the agreement, both the platform support payments and the minimum software royalty commitments are expected to measure in the billions of US dollars. The total amount of the platform support payments is expected to slightly exceed the total amount of the minimum software royalty commitments. In accordance with the contract terms, the platform support payments and annual minimum software royalty commitment payments continue for a corresponding period of time.

                    • kues says:

                      Nokia clarified/extended the text from Q2 onwards- now I really understand the platform support payments and your remarks- thank you!

        • dss says:

          So they sold 2 mil. Symbian phones.. now they are hoping that they can convert those into Windows Phone sales, but so far… this is not happening. Most of the Symbian sales are going Android’s way… unfortunately for Nokia..

          For this whole thing to make sense, they need to be selling at least 10 million smartphones per quarter.. and I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

          • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

            Nokia seems to be counting Asha phones as smartphones so they are well over 10 million by now.

            On the other hand, the price of Asha phones is not too far from the price of low end Symbian phones.

            The ASP of Symbian phones should be well under 100€ by now so I guess the low end should cost something like 50€ to be competitive.

            • nn says:

              Actually, they are little bit schizophrenic about Ashas. In the traditional break down of devices unit into smart and mobile devices they are counting them into mobile (and thus are reporting 80M mobiles and 6.6M smart devices). However, they seem to introduce new category named “smartphones”, where to smart devices they add Ashas touch. Interestingly, corresponding category “dumbphones” amounting to mobile devices minus Ashas is missing.

              Almost looks like they want to simultaneously boost both smartphones and dumbphones by playing with numbers and words.

              • jiipee says:

                The whole smartphone, feature phone division is stupid. All that matters is price basket.

                Doesnt Asha’s do everything and more than the first Iphone did and it was called as smartphone.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  Asha does even something more a Symbian phone does.

                  It’s reliable.

                • nn says:

                  IMO the differentiation is quite reasonable, especially now when it’s evident world is quickly moving from dumbphones to smartphones. And although some can argue Ashas are better than Symbian and thus better than WP, they are still same dead end as dumbphones. I even think they are harmful to Lumia cause, because when later Elop will try to move people from Asha UI/UX to WP, they will smash it over his head the same way Symbian users did.

                  If Nokia will be around long enough to witness falling sales of Ashas, we will quickly learn they aren’t smartphones after all, and shouldn’t be counted as such.

                  • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                    It wasn’t that long ago when one guy working for Nokia was claiming that Nokia can’t be counting all Symbian phones as smartphones.


                    Asha may be a dead end but so was Symbian.

                    So, if Symbian can be counted as a smartphone, I suppose Asha phones can be.

                    • nn says:

                      Well, if we are now counting WP as smartphones, then necessarily we have to count all Symbian variants as smartphones. So that guy was certainly wrong, hope Elop fired him.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


                      We have to count WP and Symbian phones as smartphones. I guess Nokia is counting Asha phones as smartphones so that’s how it is.

                    • nn says:

                      Well, as was demonstrated they simultaneously do and do not count Ashas as smartphones. So whatever variant you choose, don’t forget to use corresponding definition of dumbphones.

            • kues says:

              The Symbian ASP was about 150€ in Q3 and 120-125€ (depending on how many N9 were still shipped then) in Q2- increasing QoQ since Q1/2012. The 100€ mark is probably far away in Q4…

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                Yes it was because Elop managed to stop the collapse of Symbian’s ASP.

                Without Elop Nokia would be selling millions of 50€ Symbian phones.

                • kues says:

                  Please tell me how Elop accieved this ‘miracle’ of stopping the collapse of Symbian ASP?

                  • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


                    Just by asking a price that can cover the cost of manufacturing the phone.

                    • kues says:

                      Knew he had some secret super powers.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Yes, Symbian was no longer competitive against low end Android phones.

                      Nokia no longer sold too many low end Symbian phones because it was not possible to compete with Symbian.

                      Less low end sales and ASP stabilized.

                    • jiipee says:

                      “Yes, Symbian was no longer competitive against low end Android phones.”

                      There are more than 2 million evidences against that ;) Note, I dont believe Nokia could have continued with Symbian so you next old school Nokia fanboy reply does not apply. Neither does Tomi reference.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Over 2 million? Where?

        • MOOking says:

          lol you mean cause elop cut off supports for symbian…… driving market down

        • A-S-D says:

          “Just decide if 5 million of Symbian^3 devices was a great success or if it was not.”

          Remember though Nokia was the market leader but now its coming from behind. In the appropriate context it was pretty good sales (not great or excellent) and the context is that none of the S^3 devices were available for the whole quarter and they weren’t available in all countries hence they were pretty good despite only being a fraction of overall Symbian sales and the market.

    • A-S-D says:

      “I don’t know why you are so happy about these numbers?”

      The 4.4 million is good from an ASP (average sale price) perspective which is most important for investors and board members while for fanboys its the amount sold. For fanboys this is a poor/below expectations result and an acceptable number would be 6-8 million, up to 10 million would be good and anything over that would be great/excellent. For the board and investors, Nokia’s making money. Also, it indicates sales of the higher end models, (920, 820, 822, 810) which can easily be translated to lower end over time due to increased brand value whilst Huawei and ZTE are seen as cheap thus their high-end models don’t sell very well outside Asia.

      “Nokia’s WP “experiment” has failed.”

      Not really. Q1 2013 is (and I’ve always said it was since Q4 2011 and Elop’s crap execution of the switch to WP and deliberate destruction of Symbian sales) the single final deciding factor and the board is concerned as much with profit margins as they are with numbers sold/marketshare so I think Elop will pass that test and Nokia will remain as is thanks to good higher end sales. Q4 was supposed to be an indication however stock shortages and a late release mean its not a great indicator. The profits margins look positive but the high end sales in Western countries could fall after this Christmas sales seen and therefore the devices division may not be profitable and viable and action may be needed. We simply do not know and won’t until Q1 results.

      “My prediction for Q1 2013 are 2,8 Million Lumia’s and even less in Q2 (in the anticipation of SGS4 and IP5s).”

      My prediction: you’re wrong. Q1 has seen the release of the 620, wider release of the 510, 820 and 920 and shortages of the 920 are now being addressed. I definitely cannot give numbers for Q2 but again, they’ll be more than the 2.8 million you give. Whilst I’m also hesitant to give Q1 numbers, I’m almost certain the marketshare will soar due to the low marketshare Nokia’s going to have in Q4 (I’m predicting 3% assuming 225 million are sold this quarter).

      Nokia sales will increase next quarter whilst ASP will go down. These are facts. The Lumia 620 will sell very well, as will the Lumia 510 and these two together will drag down the ASP (for Lumia, overall ASP may remain the same as lower Symbian sales continue to drop whilst the 808 still sells) whilst boosting overall sales. Lumia 820 will sell well in the markets it will be released in in Q1 and the 920 will be boosted by greater availability both in existing markets and new releases. I get the feeling we may see a new high-end phones for Verizon and T-Mobile released either in March or April so they may add to sales if released in March but it won’t be huge, simply helping to increase ASP. I may of course be wrong.

      Also, to those saying we’ll see a 920 successor by mid 2013, I wouldn’t count on it. It doesn’t make sense for Nokia to do that due to costs associated with developing new phones.

      • Viipottaja says:

        Great points. Here’s to hoping they have good supply of the 920T (as well as other models) for the Chinese market, given the Chinese new year shopping season coming up.

        I too would not necessarily expect an exact 920 successor (if there ever is such a thing as a direct successor) – what is more likely is are carrier exclusive variants and/or a somewhat differently positioned device (e.g. a hunch back PV3 model or a slimmer but less feature stacked model), thus allowing 920 sales to continue as well (possibly at a somewhat lower price point).

  9. Oreg says:

    Like always, the numbers are low becouse of limited avaibility but they Exceeded Expectations.
    I mean that means they sold more than they expected but there was some avaibility problems they didn’t count with. If they do so they could sell more than they expected…Wait a minute!?

    It’s just funny now :S

  10. jtanigawa says:

    I think a lot of the 2nd Gen Lumias being produced in the 4th quarter were held back to be used for releases in regions where it hasn’t been released ie; India.

  11. Marc says:

    One more thing to think about: WHY Microsoft marketing Windows 8/RT so hard and forgetting WP8? Why does WP has problems syncing with Windows and XBOX services, why there are problems with Skype still?

    We are hearing about Windows Blue in summer. It will bring big changes to Windows family. But will WP survive the next big change (if its market continue to shrink)? Or, maybe, its fate is already decided (lack of push and integration with other OS’s from Microsoft)?

    This is only speculations, of course. But Microsoft’s stance is not looking like “going all in with WP” (like Nokia).

    • dss says:

      Even there is windows blue.. it will be an update to 8, not a new OS

      • Luisito says:

        Acording to some sites over there, Windows Blue is the codename for a project to convert Windows a one year OS release, and finaly merging Windows/Windows Phone/Windows RT into one OS… Big changes are ahead, and Nokia could be harmed

    • Viipottaja says:

      At least here in the US MS is marketing WP8 quite a bit (have seen a fair number of TV ads although don’t watch much, bus station ads, movie theater ads). There is a reasonable bit of marketing from AT&T on the 920 as well (much more than at least I saw on the 900).

  12. Sefriol says:

    MONEY MONEY MONEY! Soon I have tripled my investments. Lumia sales were almost as I though. Was expecting little bit more than 5mil.

  13. MOOking says:

    YEAAAAAAAAA BS….i’m seeing this on my work news feed….and i’m like…that’s not something to brag about ….

  14. MOOking says:

    if that fool didn’t kill symbian,and meego/Maemo5 there would of had soo much more in sales

  15. Ofentse says:

    I told my friend who laghed that GS3 sold 30 and Lumia rages combined were less…I told him that Sammy is on a 3rd version of Galaxy S and that’s where Sammy was comfortable with it’s sales. I told him GS1 was an intro just like Lumia 800 and 900, GS2 that’s when Sammy gained confidence of the market and GS3 was to seriously sell and sell and sell…

    Soooooo Lumia’s 2nd gen is where GS2 was, plus with it came the doubts of ppl jumping over to it like they did not with 1st Gen Lumia. Sooooo Androids are still the most ReFerred Phones coz they’ve made a name of themeselves. Ppl still have doubts of WP in general coz of the same old bull shit “apps”… Anyway Q4 was good for Lumia, remember not everybody can afford it and that’s why Asha sold more.

    But anyway this is good news for starters, developers are eyeing on WP, Nokia is shaping up their production line, Nokia is slowly shaping up regardless of the “small sales”… It’s Not a disappointment coz we still have loyal iPhone and Android users who really will find it hard to just throw away their phones but some did and helped make that 4.4 mill…
    Ayoooba ;-)

  16. dss says:

    No matter how you spin the numbers, this is far from “good news” for Nokia.. of course, its all relative, but considering their performance from not that long ago, this is pretty bad.

    I am not saying that Symbian/MeeGo/QT would have done better (even tho its hard to imagine it would have been any worse), but stil… Windows Phone is supposed to be saving Nokia, not the other way around, which is exactly what’s happening here.

    I wonder how many WP devices HTC and Samsung sold ? I bet you between both of them they didn’t even reach the 2 mil. mark.

    • Bloob says:

      Yeah, I can’t help but wonder, if a small MeeGo team would not have produced better results than this.

      • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

        How much MeeGo coders did Nokia have? Is 1000 enough? 2000?

        They kicked out the Meltemi team and there were over 700 people. Meltemi was 100% compatible with MeeGo.

        Most people were laid off in 2011.

        So it was not that small team.

        • jiipee says:

          I think something like 1300 was referreds somewhere including hw personnel. As always, Nokia had way too many developers and even more managers working on a project. My friends were cursing this already in 2005. You should also remember that after a software development project is ready maintenance and further development takes a lot less resources.

          If Jolla is able to release a device before Q4 with their limited resources, that would be a benchmark what Elop should have reached, if he was good in execution.

          You keep telling about the old Nokians and still Elop chose maybe the worst one to head mainly software development project. And then had to kick her out. You yourself quoted het brain farts some time ago. Well, maybe marketing position on selling servers is good background to head SW development. Or she spoke better english than the rest.

          • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

            It may be 1300. Maybe more, maybe less. What it was not? It was not a small team.

            Jolla. That’s interesting company. People thought they were going to release a phone in 2012 and now you are not the first one to say how may get it out in late 2013. The official release date was in summer 2013?

            Yes, she was not that good. Elop has failed on many matters but something he got right. He killed Symbian. After getting my 808 I understood that there was no hope for Symbian. It was doomed. Really.

            Speaking good English applies only to native Finns. I think I mentioned that earlier.

            • Bloob says:

              Never claimed it was a small team, rather that Nokia should/could have kept a small team, and possibly still do better than they are doing with Lumia.

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                Yes, they should make best possible products with a team of few members. That would make the profits run!

  17. xxx says:

    Toni Ahonen comment:
    Nokia smartphones shipped 6.6 million units in Q4, up only 5% from Q3 when it sold 6.2 million smartphones. This is down from 19.6 million one year ago when Lumia first launched and 28.8 million when Nokia sold only Symbian based smartphones.

    • dss says:

      Yes.. and that huge gap transferred over to Android, very few stayed along with Nokia for the Lumia range. I feel like most of those Lumia sales are new customers, not Symbian transferees..

    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

      Nokia considers Asha phones as smartphones so it’s not that low.

      I guess that’s fair because they did consider Symbian phones as smartphones.

      However Tomi Ahonen really failed in forecasting Q4. He claimed that Nokia will be selling 2,5 million WP phones in Q4.

      • Marc says:

        “I guess that’s fair because they did consider Symbian phones as smartphones.”

        Symbian is more smartphone than WP is, even today :)

        On the other hand, if you choose WP for your high end smartphones, you can call a dumbphone “low end smartphone” (because functionality is similar) :)

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

          You should remember that Symbian is 1st generation smartphone while Android, WP and iOS are 2nd generation smartphones. Modern smartphones.

          • dss says:

            Whatever that means.. my 808 is a better smartphone than my iPhone 5, and that is considered by many the best smartphone in the world, so.. there is a riddle for you.

            • Marc says:

              Sometimes, people are using double standards (like “modern smartphone” (what does it mean?) ) trying to cover limited functionality of OS (like first iOS and WP)

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                You can pick up the first iPhone with the latest iOS available for it and still get massive amounts of apps for it. You can still use the browser and it works pretty well.

                If you take a Nokia phone of the time, something like N95, it’s not so nice. No applications or very few of them and using the internet is not so nice.

                And still both of those are over 5 years old devices.

                Apple invented the modern smartphone. You can thank Steve Jobs for that one.


            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              It depends.

              I have an 808 and it’s really not so good. I got it because of the native resolution.

              I want to have a reliable phone/smartphone and 808 is not that.

              However it’s nice if you like it. As a smartphone it would never be enough for me.

      • Weirdfisher says:

        did he mean 2.5 million WP8 phones?

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

          No. All WP.

          Tomi Ahonen wrote:

          “Like I said, the Kantar numbers are very accurate in short-term forecasting smartphone OS platform performance for the current quarter. And these findings suggest total Nokia smartphone sales of 6.8 million units for Q4 which they also suggest, would split 4.3 million on Symbian (and MeeGo), and 2.5 million on all Lumia, old and new, on Windows Phone.”

          • Marc says:

            His predictions was actually very good before the end of December (6.8 mln.: 2/3 Lumia and 1/3 Symbian). Then he made corrections based on Kantar data. And here rise more questions about WP sales (more shipped than sold?)

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              Yes, but he made corrections and that’s why he failed.

              I can be the world’s best forecaster if I can forget the wrong forecasts.

              Tomi Ahonen tries to be best by forgetting all those failures he made.

              • Marc says:

                Well, 6.8 mln prediction for Symbian and Lumia in Q4 is pretty close (6.6 in reality). And even his corrected Lumia sales are not too far from reality, comparing with his critiques predictions :)

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


                  His last forecast for WP was 2,5 million and the reality was 4,4 million so he failed miserably.


                  • Marc says:

                    Yes, he missed (and admitted it himself), but his critiques missed even more :)
                    So, it’s not bad.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


                      He is just a very bad forecaster.

                      This is very simple.

                    • Mark says:

                      He failed. Any fool can be wise after the event.

                      He was wrong. Deal with it.

                    • Noki says:

                      that’s the story here today, don’t mind that 4.4 is a joke of a number..
                      Tomi got his prediction wrong by a whooping 1.9 Million aka less than a rounding number error in the smartphone market.

          • Francis says:

            No, this what Tomi said in November 2012:

            “Nokia Q4 smartphone sales are likely in the range of 4.8 million to 6.8 million this quarter, Q4 Christmas quarter of 2012. That would be roughly 31% of Symbian/MeeGo sales, 25% of old Lumia sales, and the remainder, 44% of new Lumia WP 8 sales. Nokia’s total smartphone market share is headed to something around 3% now, and the Lumia series, Windows Phone based Nokia smartphones would have around 2% market share.”

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              And after that he said this in December 2012:

              “Like I said, the Kantar numbers are very accurate in short-term forecasting smartphone OS platform performance for the current quarter. And these findings suggest total Nokia smartphone sales of 6.8 million units for Q4 which they also suggest, would split 4.3 million on Symbian (and MeeGo), and 2.5 million on all Lumia, old and new, on Windows Phone.”

              Tomi really failed this time.

  18. RVM says:

    I just googled for some Samsung results, and it appears that Nokia was once again the largest phone manufacturer in Q4 2012, since Samsung sold only around 65 million phones.

  19. ftw says:

    4 M Lumias on Christmas season? PATHETIC

  20. stylinred says:

    wow so Symbian is still selling like a beast, sigh elop you fool

    I wonder how Blackberry 10 is going to hurt Lumia in Q1 considering all carriers are adopting BB10 devices

    • viktor von d. says:

      it’s not going to since bb10 will be available from q2 and then they will only have one phone for starters and with limited availability at first

      q2-z10 , limited availability, few markets available
      q3- the qwerty phone , limited availability, few markets available / + z10 available pretty much everywhere
      q4-new phones to cover low end and another flagship, limited availability at launch and few markets
      q1 2014 – blackberry in full force everywhere with full range of products

      so nokia is safe in q1. no threat from blackberry. q2 however will be difficult if they don’t release anything new cause all the full hd 5 inch phones that were shown at ces and mwc will be available. plus the new galaxy s4

      • stylinred says:

        blackberry claimed availability wouldn’t be an issue

        but that’s interesting about q2 i thought it would be available in the next couple weeks

        • viktor von d., says:

          it’s going to be launched in a couple of weeks. but it will take another few weeks till it will be carried by operators in the us and won’t be available everywhere at the same time. that’s why i’m saying q1 and even q2 will pose no issues for nokia from rim.
          the others however will rape nokia

  21. Dr.Smart says:

    Who gives a rat’s ass if Nokia sells 4.4 millions or 44 millions.
    Nokia is an OEM for crying out loud. Do you get excited by Samsung because it sells so much? No these are box movers.

    Real shame that Nokia is not the driving force in mobile computing anymore (regardless of sales).

    • Mark says:

      Dry your eyes!

      It’s OK, you expected Nokia to fail and sell only 2.5 million Lumias… and you were WRONG! LOL! :)

      • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

        Yes. Tomi Ahonen, the supreme priest of the Nokia religion has foreseen how Nokia will sell only 2,5 million Lumia phones in Q3 2012.

        Now then this prophecy failed to became true, all they can do is to claim how this wasn’t a “real” forecast.

        So here is how Tomi does it. He makes a number of forecasts and selects the one that was best. The Nokia sheep just forget the failed forecasts and praise him as the best forecaster there is.

        Nokia has become a true religion.

        • Dr.Smart says:

          Whaaaat? Who said anything about Tomi Ahonen or 2.5 mill?

          Mark and Ere .. where the hell did these dumb and dumber one-two punch brothers barge in from remarking idiotic unrelated remarks?

          • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

            Please follow the conversation.

            That’s how you can understand what people are talking about.

            Ignorance is not something you should brag about.

          • Noki says:

            yeah tomi got is prediction numbers wrong by what is on the smart phone area a rounding error, that the big win today.
            Nokia still not able to push the 5 million Lumias barrier, with 8 repeat 8 lumias on the market is not worth mentioning.

            I gess the most important thing to look here is Tomi geting is numbers wrong by a whooping 1.9 Million wow yes 1.9 million aka the number of galaxies sold in an afternoon. pathetic

          • Oreg says:

            Best comment so far :) Thank you

    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


      Nokia was no longer any kind of driving force in the industry. Not after Apple invented the modern smartphone in 2007. That was the moment when Nokia started to collapse.

      It will be hard for some people to understand this, but unfortunately Steve Jobs was the man who pretty much killed Nokia with inventing the modern smartphone.

      • dss says:

        A modern smartphone..? They took a dumb phone, and made it very pretty and pleasant to use…

        Symbian 10.0 still holds its own against iOS 6 to this day…and since iOS is still catching up, it will continue to do so for the next 2 years, despite the lack of active development.

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

          Yes, Apple uses Unix core and the iPhone is reliable pleasant to use.

          Some people seem to be living in the past with Symbian. However, it’s not that bad. First we had the Amish people and now Symbian people.

          But wait! Symbian has all those half baked specs! Is must be great because it has so many half baked features.

          • Dr.Smart says:

            The only one half-baked is you sir!

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              I guess you own one of those magical Symbian phones never having any problems. It’s a shame Nokia never sold those in volumes.

              Symbian collapsed just because it had too many half baked features and it was quite unstable.

              • Noki says:

                And what is WP excuse for Not selling?
                We all know till nausea all the reasons Symbian “sucked” but is WP excuse???

                BTW I suspect another BS lie from microsoft on the 10 Million WP sold in Q4, with nokia representing around 70% of WP sales I don’t see how Microsoft can claim 10 Million.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  You were supposed to stop replying to me. Yes?

                  Are you ready to talk about the source for those claimed 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011?

          • AlsoCan says:

            We may be the dumbest ever for liking Symbian, but all we ask is to survive.
            I have no interest in which of Symbian, WP, iOS, BB10 is beting the other but I have a problem with (very soon) not being able to buy what I like.

            iPhone was an amazing innovation, but it does not mean that everyone wants an iPhone or that every phone should copy the iPhone (I’m looking at you, WP). There is plenty room for other things and the more choice we (consumers) will have the happier we will be.

            • Noki says:

              Not in Nokia, in Nokia there can only be WP, no mater how deeply unprofitable it is.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              Just buy something else. You can still buy Symbian phones if you want to get one. The 808 has a very good availability and it’s Symbian. There will be alternatives for iOS and WP. But don’t blame iOS and Android for killing Symbian or some other OS.

              Yes, you can buy Symbian or N9. Symbian phones will be available for years. No applications for those while iPhone has tons of apps?

              If you would live in an universe without iPhone ever invented, there would be very few apps or applications for any phone. Well, actually only applications because there obviously wouldn’t be apps without iPhone.

              The application industry was in a very bad shape before iPhone. There was no real application stored (well working ones) and applications cost 10 or 20 times what they cost today.

              In a world without iPhone you would be using very few applications. So, just get 808 or N9 and pretend that iPhone never was.

              That’s how you can get the perfect phone. Yes?

      • kues says:

        Apple didn’t invent the modern smartphone in 2007, they just invented an iPod with touch control, mobile phone and internet capabilities.
        But Apple had a coherent product development, innovation and marketing strategy based on iTunes and a strong iPod userbase (about 70 million iPods sold in 2005/06- hitting over 20 million in Q4/2006!).

        Nokia was driving but in the wrong direction- thanks to Ollila who didn’t clean up the top and middle management and managed Nokia like some financial institution whose business modell -if at all- changes very slowly. Nokia had innovation but they didn’t make it into real products (or received no real support), because there was no vision, no overall strategy for a changing market. And when Nokia started to wake up in 2007/08 decisions were made to slow and executed poorly.
        Best example is Nokia buying Symbian and installing the Symbian Foundation. A wonderful plan, development could have been streamlined und speed up (after 10 years of bloating and up to 10 companies meddling around). But Nokia made the opposite happen, more bloating, more delays.
        Nokia had (and still has) a severe problem with top and middle management…

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


          Now how is N95 supposed to be a modern smartphone? The original iPhone can be used as a modern smartphone. I suppose N95 is not one.

          It’s interesting to see how some people still consider phones like N95 as a great modern smartphones.

          • Dr.Smart says:

            Too much self-pleasuring with Lumia up your arse is what has done this to you .. poor man.

          • kues says:

            Never said the N95 is a modern smartphone- though it still can do it’s job. But the original iPhone isn’t a modern smartphone either. The iPhone 3G was a modern smartphone, but it came to market 2008 not 2007- same as Apples appstore which opened doors in 2008 not 2007.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              Yes, is it the 3G connection or GPS?

              • kues says:

                Or the appstore, MMS, etc?
                And yourself: missing touchscreen or low screen resolution?

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  “The original iPhone can be used as a modern smartphone.”

                  I guess I didn’t say it should be used with original software.

                  The original iPhone can be used to get plenty of apps from the App Store. Nice apps. Not all apps but plenty.

                  The Nokia way for designing smartphones was having one OS you can’t really upgrade. perhaps some minor fixes but real upgrades were missing.

                  Really, back in the OPK days there was hardly any OS upgrades. It was only after Elop started to work for Nokia, when they released OS upgrades for Nokia phones. Yes, real upgrades instead of some minor patches/whatever.

                  I guess that if we should blame Elop for everything bad, we should give him credit for making OS upgrades possible for Nokia phones.

                  • kues says:

                    They could have upgraded the Symbian OS for older devices- it was a choice not do so.
                    And it wasn’t Elop who started the first round of cleaning up the Symbian and Meego development mess- Rich Green and others did do it. As you probably remember it was announced 21 Oct 2010- just one month after Elop took seat as CEO. And it was the CTO presenting the news.
                    Also the unified underlying hardware platform for Symbian^3 devices was of course planned and developed long before Elop was CEO.
                    He was the one who cancelled the highend dualcore and high screenresolution Symbian models as WP couldn’t competed in time…

          • viktor von d., says:

            the first iphone was a bonified dumbphone with a toucscreen. you couldn’t install apps,it had no maps,no bluetooth,no sd card, 2 mp camera that only took pictures, no videos, dependedent on itunes, no multitasking, no mms support.
            the current asha phones are supersmartphones compared to what apple had in 2007. and yet people still called it the first real smartphone.
            meanwhile nokia had the n95, the best,real ultimate smartphone available at the time who had most of the features that you expect from a smartphone today.
            here’s something from wikipedia about the n95

            ”Its capabilities include:[1][2] a Global Positioning System receiver with maps and optional turn-by-turn navigation; a 5 megapixel digital camera with Carl Zeiss optics, flash, video recording and video conferencing; wireless connectivity via HSDPA, IrDA, 802.11x and Bluetooth; a portable media player with the ability to download podcasts over the air a FM Radio tuner; Composite Video output via included cable; multi-tasking to allow several applications to run simultaneously; a web browser with support for HTML, JavaScript and Adobe Flash; messaging via SMS, MMS and e-mail; Office suite and organizer functions; and the ability to install and run third party Java ME or Symbian mobile applications.”


            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:


              An updated, original iPhone is still a touch screen smartphone. It’s pretty nice to use web with it. It’s also possible to get tons of apps for the device. Apps that can make it to do something nice. App Store still works.

              And the N95? No touch screen and a very limited selection on applications. Very hard to make it to do anything new with the applications. There are just too few of those. How is the application store/Ovi Store/whatever on the N95?

              So, how comfortable is Angry Birds on the N95? It’s pretty nice on the original iPhone. Very playable. Maybe you consider the N95 version as the better one?

              • Sonny says:

                So according to you a smartphone has to have a touchscreen and apps?

                Well that means WP isnt a modern smartphone because today’s Iphone as over 700 000 apps while WP8 has 100 000+ apps

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  I guess your religion forbids to call WP as a smartphone?

                  • Sonny says:

                    Why cant you answer my simple question?

                    according to you the n95 was not a modern smartphone but most people here will say the n95 was Nokia’s best smartphone. So how is WP a modern smartphone OS if it doesnt have all the apps compare to IOS and android?


                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      You should try to think what is a modern smartphone and what is not.

                      Maybe you could give me some examples of modern smartphones without touch screen?

                      It’s true that N95 is probably the best smartphone from Nokia. However it’s not a modern smartphone.

  22. Noki says:

    tss tss tss. what a win 4.4 Million wow on average selling 550.000 phones per Lumia wow… Give up on WP it never going any thing other than a money synk.

    For the astroturfers seams like the big win was that Tomi got is numbers wrong… Heeheheheh…

    Really how can any one see this number positive during the xmas season, with 8 different terminals on the market selling world wide, is beyond my comprehension. Ashas saving the day along with feature phones…Lumias still a massive money synk.

    The numbers might be slightly positive (still losing money right?) for nokia as a company but for WP-Lumia??? its just sad.

    I have another forecast for Q1 0 Lumia sales this way Nokia cant fail to impresses positively. WP astroturfers are sad ….. 4.4 a win????

    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

      What upsets me most, instead of accepting the facts – “WP is rubbish, WP isn’t selling well, Nokia doesn’t do well, Elop should be fired and quartered for what he has done with the company over the past two years” they are busy inventing excuses – “it’s all previous management/OPK fault” (gosh, it was more than two years ago!), “Meego would not be better” (plain fabricated speculation), “let’s wait for [(next quarter)|(windows phone (8|9))|(new amazing WP device with DirtyHear technology)]” (there is no point even in commenting this endless nonsense)… And every quarter there are always shitloads of people with all the same excuses.

      • Noki says:

        +++++10 000

      • hosny santos says:

        +10000, noika is going down and Flop is the king of the hill, is time for Plan B?// meego, jolla, and to burn Flop, now where is Jane, with his big mouth/ he needs came and figth for his Flop , when Nokia is die,roks tommi

    • spacemodel says:

      Yep, 4.4 million in the most interesting quarter is just bad, no if or when, just bad.

      WP7 had no traction and with WP8 it is the same song again, this is it, 4-5 million per quarter is the limit for WP, the mobile world have already decided, it’s iOS or Android all the way.

      Of course there’s always room for some niche product like WP but posters who think WP will ever reach a double digit marketshare are just delusive.

      Nokia’s quarter was saved by the Asha’s but, as someone posted before, Asha is Nokia’s last defence line, is losing marketshare on a YoY basis and the prospect of even cheaper and, especially, much better Android’s is not a prospect to look forward to.

      Elop stated in februari 2011 that the transition period from Symbian to WP would be two years and now we are here, from 20 million sold smartphones down to 4.4 million.
      This transition period is an utter failure and there’s not a single sign it will be any better; it’s time for change.

      • ftw says:

        don’t you know? wp does not sell because symbian sucks its all symbians fault.. symbian is so bad it is preventing wp from selling in other OEM’s like HTC samsung ZTE etc..

  23. ayon1200 says:

    in my opinion it is their beyond expectation bcs its new no games apps compare to android and ios. so they release these set bcs of selling to attract developer. when the developer see good number set sold dey come forward to develop the app. then in mwc they release a perfect which may huge success

  24. Marc says:

    So, basically, 2012Q4 Lumia sales is like Symbian’s 2010Q4 (sales numbers up and market share decline).

    Except, Symbian sold more and had 10x marketshare of Lumias?

    Still, somehow Symbian was called “dead end” and “burning platform”, but WP is a success and need just a little more time (when next month we’ll see new Blackberry devices (and it is a stronger offering than WP (apps and OS itself) in addition to current platforms)?

    How is it possible to still believe in WP success and at the same time make jokes about “Symbian/Nokia religion”???

    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

      It’s not a joke when people are talking about Symbian as a religion.

      Symbian was a religion and it is still a religion.

      The difference between WP and Symbian? WP costs less. It’s highly unlikely Nokia would have been able to sell 15 million Symbian phones in Q4 2012.

      Using Symbian today would result enormous losses. Nokia would die with Symbian. It was a road to destruction. Symbian development took huge resources and it was extremely inefficient.

      MeeGo? Extremely few applications from Symbian and no proof whatsoever it would have succeeded.

      • Oleg Derevenetz says:

        “MeeGo? Extremely few applications from Symbian”

        Windows Phone? No applications at all (at least at the very start). Sentences like this can be said for almost all new platforms, but some at least trying to deal with it – for example, BB10 have built-in Android runtime support (as well as native runtime, of course) to let app base grow faster. There is no reason why this couldn’t be done for Meego (except Meego closure, of course). Windows Phone? No chance to have something like this, but tons of useless restrictions instead.

        “and no proof whatsoever it would have succeeded”

        Any proofs for Windows Phone success? Currently I see literally NONE.

        Windows Phone sectarians are so funny.

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

          Android compatibility. Really nice way to kill most of native software development for the platform.

          It’s a nice way of turning OS into some kind of Android wannabe without the need for native applications.

          WP seems to have lots of application at the moment. No reason to believe MeeGo would have that good availability of applications. Qt for Symbian was hardly ready for some real compatibility between Symbian and MeeGo. Sorry.

          • Oleg Derevenetz says:

            “Android compatibility. Really nice way to kill most of native software development for the platform.”

            Let’s see. In any case, users will be benefited by this for sure. Unlike WP users.

            “No reason to believe MeeGo would have that good availability of applications.”

            Just plain speculation. BTW, I still can’t see any “good availability” of applications on WP, on the contrary, developers are abandoning it, like here:


            or here:


            Just google by “developers abandon Windows Phone”. Sorry.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              Yes, that remains to be seen.

              Speculation, yes. No proof that MeeGo would have sold any better compared to WP. Still it’s cheaper to use WP.

              I see, you seem to think WP has no applications while MeeGo was destined to be a success with huge amount of applications.

              You are strong in your faith.

              • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                “No proof that MeeGo would have sold any better compared to WP.”

                No proof of reverse though. In fact “MeeGo wouldn’t sell, if it had a real chance” is just a speculation, while “WP doesn’t sell” is a fait accompli. You are trying to fight against facts just with speculations like “Meego would not be better”. Good luck with that.

                “You are strong in your faith.”

                Not as strong as you though :)

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  I’m not claiming that WP is selling well.

                  Nokia got some nice growth, that’s true.

                  The problem is that Nokia didn’t kill Symbian early enough.

                  The problem was that there can be only one real OS for Nokia. First it was Symbian, then MeeGo and now WP.

                  Lots of problems. Strange.

                  And people still think Nokia was winning with these cards?

                  Well. They have Asha and it’s selling pretty well. Almost same ASP as low end Symbian.

          • Oleg Derevenetz says:

            “Qt for Symbian was hardly ready for some real compatibility between Symbian and MeeGo. Sorry.”

            BTW. Are you developer? Can you read code at least? If yes, then there is food for thought for you. Let’s look on sources of real Qt-based Symbian/Meego app, that is available at Nokia Store:


            This app can be built for Symbian and for Meego simultaneously. Code base of C++/Qt classes is fully shared among them. The only difference is QML part, here it is for Symbian:


            and here for Meego:


            Can you point out more than five differences between them (apart from “import 1.0″ instead of “import 1.0″)? Strongly doubt it. How you can say that “Qt for Symbian was hardly ready for some real compatibility between Symbian and MeeGo”? I’m a professional developer, and I’m saying you – it was MOSTLY READY. Sorry. By the way, you can compare these sources with sources of BB10 port of the same app (that is fully working as well and is ready to publish at BB AppWorld in a short time):


            That’s what called “hardly ready for some real compatibility”.

          • Oleg Derevenetz says:

            “Qt for Symbian was hardly ready for some real compatibility between Symbian and MeeGo. Sorry.”

            BTW. Are you developer? Can you read code at least? If yes, then there is food for thought for you. Let’s look on sources of real Qt-based Symbian/Meego app, that is available at Nokia Store:


            This app can be built for Symbian and for Meego simultaneously. Code base of C++/Qt classes is fully shared among them. The only difference is QML part, here it is for Symbian:


            and here for Meego:


            Can you point out more than five differences between them (apart from “import 1.0″ instead of “import 1.0″)? Strongly doubt it. How you can say that “Qt for Symbian was hardly ready for some real compatibility between Symbian and MeeGo”? I’m a professional developer, and I’m saying you – it was MOSTLY READY. Sorry. By the way, you can compare these sources with sources of BB10 port of the same app (that is fully working as well and is ready to publish at BB AppWorld in a short time):


            That’s what called “hardly ready for some real compatibility”.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              So, that is based on Qt available in early 2011?

              Code seems to be pretty clean. And you have an… interesting way of handling possible errors in that application.

              It’s also proving that Symbian’s Qt had no bugs?

              • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                “So, that is based on Qt available in early 2011?”

                As far as I remember, development of this particular app was started in the end of 2011 (I lost some part of history while moving sources to SourceForge SVN). But there are was also projects started in the summer of 2011. So, yes, it’s based on Qt from 2011.

                “It’s also proving that Symbian’s Qt had no bugs?”

                Everything have bugs, even WP:


                But that’s not a reason to say “Qt for Symbian was hardly ready for some real compatibility between Symbian and MeeGo”.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  Yes, but Qt should have been ready in late 2010 or very early 2011. There was very little time left for Symbian.


                  Symbian started collapsing in 2010. Not because of Elop. It was just no longer competitive.

                  You can’t even notice the strategy change from that chart. Symbian was already crashing so fast that there should have been those Qt applications in late 2010/early 2011 MeeGo was going to ‘inherit’ from Symbian.

                  That’s very good chart and it shows how hopeless the situation was.

                  If developers were supposed to start coding those Qt applications only in 2011, how much there would have been those in late 2011 even if everything would have been going fine? Not too many.

                  And Symbian was still lacking really functional Qt in early 2011. Qt that was supposed to be the solution but it was just too late.

                  • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                    “If developers were supposed to start coding those Qt applications only in 2011, how much there would have been those in late 2011 even if everything would have been going fine? Not too many.”

                    There was not so many WP apps at that time as well, so which platform would be better in terms of apps, is highly questionable.

                  • kues says:

                    WP had little apps in late 2010/early 2011- following your logic Android would have been the only reasonable choice for Nokia…

                    Qt was ready in 2010, first integrated SDK (Nokia Qt SDK 1.0) shipped June 23, 2010.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Android was possibly a better choice but Nokia was so arrogant that it was not an option. Just a bit over two years before that Nokia was claiming how Android is not even worth evaluating. And a little over year before that they claimed that iOS was the bigger threat for Nokia.

                      Qt for Symbian was not ready at that time. It was just too buggy. How come it was not possible to get Qt applications to ovi Store before late 2010?

                      Yes, I suppose old school Nokia fans are complaining how WP has too few applications. It’s extremely hard to believe that MeeGo would have more while Symbian was destined to be gone. It was just collapsing.

                    • arts says:

                      i have no knowledge on this qt thing that was going on.

                      But let me share one end user experience:

                      there was no usable tumblr app, definately no youtube app, and no evernote app during the year 2011, and into the early 2012.

                      These services exist way before the feb 2011 annoucement. People begging for evernote clients date back to 2008-2009. Tumblr is hipster back then, but still pretty popular too. and youtube…. well its youtube.

                      Seems like qt being ready did jacksh!t to end users.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @arts, before Qt era development of Symbian apps was really, REALLY tough thing. Ironically, just a few month after release of Qt SDK and first platform that fully support all Qt SDK features – S^3 (for example, Qt Components package was available only for S^3 and above) it turns out that one of the target platforms was declared a “burning platform” and another was declared DOA. Not many developers (especially developers paid by services) will waste time to develop for Nokia platforms claimed as dead by Nokia CEO.

                      Don’t worry, WP is going the same way – not because Nokia/MS officially announced it dead, but because people see that it’s in fact dead – no sales->no developers. There was some initial enthusiasm and expectations, but now developers run from it like from plague – because they basically can’t get enough money to get a reason to waste time on WP any more.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      And the developers were supposed to start coding for Symbian only in 2011? This seems to be really smart when iOS had true developer support from 2008.

                      How long does it take to make some quality applications for mobile? 6 months? 12 months if it’s complicated and you have to do some studying. Yes, 3 days if you just make some crap.

                      Now the developers were supposed to start in early 2011 or late 2010 while this was happening.


                      The collapse of Symbian and Elop’s new strategy has no effect on that. Strange. I thought you claimed Elop killed Symbian. How come Feb. 2012 can’t be seen from that chart?

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu:

                      “And the developers were supposed to start coding for Symbian only in 2011? This seems to be really smart when iOS had true developer support from 2008.”

                      Don’t get me wrong – while developers had an ability to develop for Symbian long before than for iOS, they got comfortable enough SDK and tools in late 2010, yes. That wasn’t Elop’s fault.

                      “How long does it take to make some quality applications for mobile?”

                      It depends. Large apps, especially games with complicated gameplay and rich art, require months and even may be years, while lightweight tools (for example, a tool that allows extended camera settings, known as Camera Pro) may require a few weeks, and even may be a few days, but I doubt that they will be polished enough in latter case.

                      “Strange. I thought you claimed Elop killed Symbian.”

                      Problem with Elop in fact different. As I already said, instead of gradually getting things better by patiently dealing with internal Nokia management and priority mistakes, and by setting correct tasks to correct developer teams, he just nuked everything, fired all devs and turned Nokia into OEM, besides choosing a wrong 3rd party OS. Now we all see consequences.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu:

                      BTW, process of porting an app from one platform to another takes much less time than developing it from scratch, if source and target toolkits have comparable feature sets. For me, porting an Qt Quick app, the development of which from scratch took several weeks, to Windows Phone or BB10 Cascades may took just a few days. BTW, just for clarification – ported app will not be 1:1 rip off original app, but will use appropriate interface solutions from the target platform, of course.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      I remember very well how Qt was supposed to be the tool of the future. I was even helping to evaluate it at some point, maybe late 2009 or early 2010 when Nokia was claiming that the developers can already start the development for the future.

                      In that case the biggest problem was that it was not a proven tech in Symbian. There was no Qt installed on Symbian phones when they were manufactured and it was probable that different versions would cause conflicts.

                      No, that was not any major evaluation.

                      It really hurt Nokia when they were not able to make Qt work on Symbian in 2009. It was almost too late in 2010 and definitely too late in 2011. That’s just because Symbian was collapsing and the ASP was extremely low.

                      If Nokia was able to release fully working Qt in 2009 and a Linux phone in 2010, there would have been some chances for them. 2011 was just too late. Most Symbian phones were low end or extreme low end and the amount of touch screen phones was not that great.

                      I didn’t really evaluate that code so well. That application is a small one and there is nothing wrong with that. I wonder how much work it would have added to the project if there was some robust error handling in that? Or maybe I just missed that part?

                      Making quality applications takes time and even conversions can be tricky if the UI has some special features. Just like MeeGo had. It would be interesting to see Fruit Ninja on MeeGo’s swipe UI.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu:

                      “If Nokia was able to release fully working Qt in 2009 and a Linux phone in 2010, there would have been some chances for them.”

                      You are saying it like there was no chances for them at all (other get 3rd party OS, and even in that part they are missed out). I don’t think so.

                      “I wonder how much work it would have added to the project if there was some robust error handling in that? Or maybe I just missed that part?”

                      What do you mean exactly by “robust error handling”? Any examples?

                      “It would be interesting to see Fruit Ninja on MeeGo’s swipe UI.”

                      I see no problem with that. Swipe behaviour can be turned on and off in any time (in QML, for example – by accessing screen.allowSwipe property), and may be turned off while you playing, but turned back on while you in menu or game paused.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Just curious what will happen if output_image.setPixel fails for some reason? Or something else like that. Yes. Probably nothing serious.

                      There are just not too may Qt try catch phrases there. Well, just forget it.

                      Apple ruled in high end and Samsung took the rest from there. In the past high end has been the key for conquering the market. Now Nokia was playing this game with a very low ASP and that ASP was coming down all the time at the same time when Apple was not dropping the ASP for iPhone.

                      Trends move usually from the high end what it comes to consumer electronics. If you want to rule, you have to have the quality product. Apple had the iPhone, extremely good phone with really balanced features. Samsung has some quality phones selling in volumes.

                      What was Nokia doing in 2009? Collapsing in the high end. Spoiling the company reputation. Apple started to really annihilate Nokia in the high end in H2 2009. The iPhone 3GS was extremely good product and it had tons of apps. Not just some applications Nokia had but apps. The only solution would have been to release fully working Qt for Symbian in 2009. Without it, the battle for applications vs. apps was lost and Nokia started to collapse. First in high end, then in the mid and finally in the low end in 2011.

                      Yes, swipe can be disabled. But what I would like to see is how people would use the phone when that happens. Regular people. The iPhone is so much easier to use. Just press home button and you are back. Whatever you do and wherever you are, that works. That was just an incredible innovation from Apple. So simple, so elegant.

                      Disabling the swipe results an inconsistent user experience. While even a child can use iPhone’s home button, it would be interesting to see how easy to use it is when pausing game/whatever will have to be used just to get back to the UI. That’s actually extremely questionable approach. Applications are allowed to prevent user from using the standard UI. That’s not highly elegant like the home button.

                      What if the application crashes and you can’t enable the UI? What if it wants to show first some ads? That’s not a problem with home button but with applications, that could be a real problem with swipe.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu:

                      “Just curious what will happen if output_image.setPixel fails for some reason?”

                      It looks like you are not so familiar with Qt? If setPixel raises an exception with valid arguments, then there is some sort of stack or heap smashing or such, and there is no point to try to handle resulting segmentation violation exceptions, it’s better for all of us to let app crash, because there is no guarantee that any data structures are still valid at all. I’m handling errors where appropriate – for example, possible camera errors while capturing image with camera (no space for image, camera isn’t ready, or such) or while saving image to file, as well as verifying that (in your example) setPixel arguments are valid (x and y are resides inside the image, etc). But handling of SIGSEGV/SIGBUS exceptions is pointless.

                      “Yes, swipe can be disabled. But what I would like to see is how people would use the phone when that happens. Regular people.”

                      This is a question of education. They should learn first how swipe works just when they take a phone in their hands at a first time, without this they can’t even use this phone – by obvious reasons. The same is with iOS as well – for example, it’s not very obvious that device orientation can be locked by pressing twice on the home button and then making some changes on appeared panel.

                      Anyway, I think that Nokia had chances in 2010 and even in 2011, as well as RIM have chances now with their BB10 that somewhat similar to Harmattan (I mean by interface), but have Android runtime and their own audience as well – for historical reasons.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Asking about error handling is my favorite way of getting to know the code. When explaining it the coder usually tells what the application does and gives some nice examples of critical tasks. I wasn’t really saying that your code is not good. It’s just a way of getting to know the philosophy.

                      While it’s true that in that particular case the data would be already messed up, handling possible errors in code can be an important task if the application is not a small one and it’s possible that something was already messed up. That’s why I was interested about the additional work required to cover all that. Well. More errors. I guess error handling is also a matter of coding style. After all, I tend to have very different style for error handling compared to some coders. Java was actually a nice language back in the days because it really made it possible to make code that just “can’t” crash.

                      Sorry about off topic. Probably something very uninteresting for the MNB audience.

                      Locking the orientation in something nice, but it’s hardly as important as knowing how to get back to the home screen. I’ve shown very young kids how to play Angry Birds or some other game and how to change the game when they get bored. This has been a very easy task because it’s just so simple. Press this and select the new game by pressing it. There are some other problems but this works with some simple enough games. I’m not that sure if this would be so easy task with swipe. Locking the UI, releasing it, getting back etc. There are some uses for swipe but then again, so there is for home button as well.

                      It will be interesting to see how well RIM will perform. How many native applications they will have and how much profits they will make. They have nice services. It’s perfectly possible that people will use future RIM phones to use those services and Android applications. I don’t think they will get that many native applications but on the other hand they don’t need those because of their business model. It’s very different from the one Nokia has.

        • Marc says:

          It will be so fun if RIM will “get back to business” with BB OSX released 2 years after N9.

          Loughing with tears in my eyes…

          • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

            And if it doesn’t succeed, you will claim that MeeGo was different.

            Yes. Faith.

            • Marc says:

              BB OSX will do better than WP and you don’t need faith for that.

              Will you take your words about WP when that will happen?

              P.s. and yes, Meego would do better than BB OSX, because of 2 years head start and Nokia’s backing (you can’t deny that).

              • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                Succeeding with Nokia’s backing? So that’s why you are so pleased with the success of WP?

                I’m sure you can find a good man of faith to make a nice comparison ‘proving’ how BB is the best. No matter what the real numbers are. Wait! I know a guy who almost proved how Nokia ruled the mobile money! Incredible!

                • Marc says:

                  You didn’t answer my question:

                  Will you take your words about WP when BB 10 will overtake it?

                  Please, never compare Meego’s success based on Lumia’s. Meego would’ve never received so much hate as WP did.

                  But I am sure you know that already. Yes?

                  P.s. don’t forget to answer my first question.

                  • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                    You didn’t understand.

                    BB has already “overtaken” it if you don’t define what that really means. You can surely find some “analyst” to boost the numbers so you can prove that it won.

                    So, before the real definition there is little point in that.

                    WP has received hate? That’s just the same old talk we already saw with iPhone 4S. People were saying how even the fans were disappointed. Now, how all that hate talk affected the sales?

                    We saw people praising N9? Yes?

                    Did we see actual sales? Not really. Some people were trying to claim it got record sales but we never really saw any sales.

                    So, praising was just praising and hate talk is just hate talk. These people living in the blogosphere are just very loud. Hate lives there but that’s not people buying the phones.

                    Really. Received hate?

                    Now, iPhone fans were disappointed and blogosphere was crying out how bad iPhone 4S was. So, you remember the sales? Yes?

                    • Marc says:

                      (1) Let’s count only BB10 and Lumia’s WP8 devices.

                      (2) My point is that RIM’s strategy to stay with their own OS will work (company will be profitable and will remain an important player in smartphone market) and Nokia’s strategy with WP will (is) fail (no profit and lost market share).

                      Is that clear enough?

                      So, if both of these two points will be in favor of RIM (let’s say, 6 and 12 months after BB 10′s launch in market), will you agree that WP strategy is a failure for Nokia?

                      I am glad that we both agree, that Meego is a loved product and WP is hated by many.

                      You think hate doesn’t matter. So, why Nokia fans didn’t embrace WP?

                      Your comment about the lack of a huge N9′s success despite love is an absurd, because you’re “forgetting” about Elop and his “promotion” of N9. (Still it sold well)

                      This argument is getting absurd, because you’re evading the truth.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      So, are you suggesting to compare the first quarters of the unit sales (like Q4/2012 for WP8 and QX/2013 for BB), market shares at those quarters, or perhaps sales for a certain period like for full year 2014 or H2 2013?

                      Or are you talking about all cumulative unit sales at some point of time and comparing those? Or perhaps comparing cumulative revenues?

                      I guess Nokia should be making profits with WP strategy. Now, how much profits is enough? Just as much as they did in 2010? Something else?

                      I’m sure that MeeGo is loved by some people and hated by some. I’m also sure that WP is loved by some people and hated by some. Those people loving MeeGo may talk more in blogs. That’s how the illusion can be made.

                      Sales matter just like iPhone 4S proved. It was supposed to be hated even by the fans but it was selling pretty well.

                      No proof about N9 selling that well. Maybe it sold very well or maybe it was a miserable failure. It’s just not possible to know that because Nokia is not releasing any numbers. yes, we have some guesses but those are just guesses.

      • dss says:

        Even if it was/is a religion (which is a ridiculous assumption) it will need to be something really special for people to “believe” in it .. which, in your view, its not so do you think it got the “religion” level ?

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

          Maybe you should ask that ex-Nokia manager about the religion? After all, he was there before me claiming how Symbian was a religion.

          On the other hand, it doesn’t have to be that special to be a religion. A good story is enough. Remember Xenu?

          Symbian has all the great elements for a good story. A pure savior, a villain, betrayal, conspiracies and the second coming.

          Nice religion.

          • ftw says:

            You are a sad little person, I suspect some one is paying you to be here attacking symbian and everything else that might cast a shadow over your WP wet dreams, wake up your pyjama is wet.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              Yes, everyone not agreeing how Symbian was the best OS ever must be a Elop’s henchmen.


              The head of MeeGo was saying something bad about Symbian? Now, do you think Elop was paying him to do that or was he just a sad little person?

      • kues says:

        Being Symbian a religion or not- in 2010/11 Nokia no longer had a choice: Symbian had to be the Transition OS regardless if the new OS choice was Meego, Android, Windows Phone or something else. Nokia had/has to sell devices while reorganizing and developing new devices.

        Regarding platforms and possible success: Windows Phone had already proofed it was no success after it’s first sales quarter in Q4/2010. And WP was in no way ready for lowend devices- Android was or Symbian was (and Meltemi was to be).

        The real task for Nokia was (and still is) to turn it’s millions of Feature-/Dumbphone Users into Smartphone Users- so far Nokia has failed miserably (loosing 35 million devices sales per quarter), because WP was, had and is no solution for than task. Android would have been a solution- reaching from low to high end and being not very far seperated from Series 40 due to the programming language. Or a Qt ecosystem combining Meego and Symbian, which was to be replaced by Meego from the highend and by Meltemi from the lowend, and Series 40 would have served cheap touch devices until Meltemi takes over and be pushed down to the lowest end until it would have vanished just like Series 30 did. WP and Series 40 are like fire and water: if you used a Asha Touch or Full Touch (with Meego style UI), WP UI is like a completely different world making Android UI feeling like home…

        Who from Nokia did opt for WP by the way? The Meego guys have left early or later, leaving the old Symbian worshippers -now converted to WP- still on board…
        There’s a fitting german saying: Den Teufel mit dem Beelzebub austreiben

        • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

          Here is a graph explaining why Symbian was destined to lose.

          There was nothing to stop that development. Really nothing.

          And the funny part is that you can’t even notice the strategy change from that chart. It just had no real effect. Symbian was collapsing and Nokia was forced to kill it before the costs of developing Symbian would kill Nokia.

          No reason to believe that MeeGo would have succeeded. Just read the Story of MeeGo. It was a mess and N9 was shipped really quite unfinished. It didn’t even have folders! Really!

          No folders and the front side camera was practically unused.

          People are trying to reason how the folders were not that big deal while even iPhone has those. And the same people were claiming how iPhone was crappy when it didn’t have folders.

          So, unfinished OS to replace collapsing Symbian? Really nice. Combine that with incompetent management for OS development. Disaster.

          • kues says:

            So iOS/iPhone is on it’s way to death according to the graph…

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              Yes it is if Apple can’t sell more iPhones.

              What makes it a bit better for Apple is the long time trend. Apple’s iOS has been dropping only for a short time while Symbian was collapsing for years.

              Apple has also very high ASP that was not dropping. Nokia’s ASP was coming down really hard.

              But yes, if Apple can’t turn the trend, they will eventually collapse.

              Nokia collapsed because they were not able to turn the trend. Sad.

          • Oleg Derevenetz says:

            “No reason to believe that MeeGo would have succeeded. Just read the Story of MeeGo. It was a mess and N9 was shipped really quite unfinished. It didn’t even have folders! Really!”

            LOL, WP now, after 2 years of existence, still have no folders. Really! Unambiguous sign of an unfinished OS? :) You make my day every time by such ill-considered statements.

            • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

              Why are you LOL?

              It doesn’t seem that WP is really successful and people are telling that is happening because it’s missing features.

              Now MeeGo was missing features. Could you please explain why it was so great idea not to have folders and full support for front side camera when N9 was released?

              • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                I’m just trying to say that if OS doesn’t have support for folders on the app list screen, then it doesn’t necessary mean it was “unfinished”. That may be just an interface decision. BTW, since there was complains from people (they would be like to have an ability to create folders) – no problem, Nokia released an update for N9 with folders. MS, on the other side, still persists in their interface blunders, ignoring people opinions so far, and Nokia can’t do anything with that, even if they wanted to fix something. That’s an aftermath of being an rightless OEM.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  And the front camera support? It was hardly used for anything? Now how is that so smart?

                  Maybe you have some explanation for the front camera and why it was smart not to really support it?

                  Mirror, yes. That’s not real support.

                  • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                    That was in fact not quite as you said. As far as I remember, front camera was in fact supported in the OS, and you can get access to it via corresponding API (and just after release there was 3rd party apps that allow to, say, take photos using it, and there is even an app to make Google Talk video calls using it, named GTalk Video Call), but it wasn’t used by any built-in N9 apps, such as Camera app or Skype.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Of course it was supported by some API. It’s pretty obvious because you could use it as a mirror.

                      However there was practically no support for it when the phone was released.

                      So, you are claiming that they just decided that it was a great idea not to make any real use of it?

                      Sorry, but it really seems that it was half baked OS at the time of the release. It’s just really interesting how some people still claim it had all the features and they were polished.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu:

                      What “support” of front camera you expected exactly? It was useless for taking photos because of poor resolution, so there was no reason for built-in Camera app to use it. And it was useless for Skype, because it doesn’t support video calls at all on N9 (and still there is no support for it). If there was an update to support video calls in N9 Skype, then the front camera would have been used for sure.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Useless for taking pictures? Really? Even the front side camera of iPad 2 can be used for that and it’s not too great.

                      What’s the point of adding a front side camera that’s so bad people can’t use it?

                      Why not letting the user to decide? Because it’s a Nokia phone supposed to give people the freedom of choice? Or was that some kind of an attempt to copycat Apple? Surely not.

                      I bet they just dropped the feature because they didn’t have time to implement it.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu:

                      “I bet they just dropped the feature because they didn’t have time to implement it.”

                      Even if so, this niche was momentarily occupied by 3rd party apps. In any case, features rarely appear all together. As you remember, first iPhone can’t ever run 3rd party apps – while other smartphones did this for years, and even cheap dumbphones was able to run Java apps. End of the world did not happen, and iPhone got an ability to run 3rd party apps a bit later. More serious issue than absence of support for front camera in built-in Camera app on N9. I can remember LOTS of such issues in Android devices as well.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      True, but at the time iPhone had few features never really seen before in mobile. That was something new. Now I know some people think swipe was new, but was it really that nice as were multitouch, iTunes, great browser Symbian never caught up and real OS upgrades?

                      While everything changed in 2007 when Apple introduced iPhone, it really started selling only in 2008 with the iPhone 3G. It’s probable that, with proper marketing, Nokia would have sold just as many MeeGo phones in 2011-2012 as Apple sold iPhones in 2007-2008.

                      I remember very well how people using Nokia phones complained how iPhone was missing all those features. Yes it was. Now is this something why N9 was supposed to succeed over 4 years after the iPhone while it was offering very few new features compared to the competition?

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Ere oli aliarvostettu:

                      “Now is this something why N9 was supposed to succeed over 4 years after the iPhone while it was offering very few new features compared to the competition?”

                      That’s not something WHY N9 WAS SUPPOSED TO SUCCEED, that’s just WHY N9 HARDLY FAILED just because of absence of front camera support (temporary, I think). This discussion is pointless. Who knows what would be N9 if it wasn’t shutted down? All we know is that WP is failure and isn’t a good choice. Personally I think that Elop should be fired immediately, because he is fully responsible for such catastrofic “transition” from Symbian to WP, for destroyed R&D, for fired people, for nuked projects, and so on – and catastrophic results of all those. I do not think that this may be challenged – he is fully responsible for his actions. Not “previous management”, not OPK – he is already fired more than two years ago after all. Only Elop.

                    • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                      The front camera was just one example of why the OS was half baked. There was several issues with N9. It was missing features even the iPhone had while the iPhone is considered as the absolute minimum (by many Nokia fans) what it comes to features.

                      What would have happened if Nokia didn’t shut down Symbian development? The costs were astronomical, Nokia was extremely inefficient and the middle management, well, something horrible. People at Nokia were thinking that it was really the best there is. It was a religion. Really. The head of MeeGo development was saying it was a religion preventing anything else competing against it. This thinking was preventing Nokia from making progress.

                      Steve Jobs called Apple’s Lisa sh*t back in the days and told how the designers of Lisa really f***** up. Yes, he was using those words. It’s possible that Elop was trying to pull off some Steve Jobs stunt and failed while doing it. Not the first time someone at Nokia was trying to be Steve Jobs.

                      All we know that WP was not selling that well. It’s not possible to say that it will never sell well.

                      Remember also that the MeeGo team already failed twice while delivering the UI. It’s possible that Nokia’s management feared that they would fail again and then Nokia would be doomed. While WP was unproven product, so was MeeGo. With the exception that the MeeGo team already failed to deliver and WP was shipping.

                    • ftw says:

                      “The front camera was just one example of why the OS was half baked”
                      So a non existing issue is an example…

                      how much are you being paid to be around here, spreading FUD? Because that all you do FUD!And what is WP excuse?

                      Micrososft as been working on mobile OS’s for ever and still Harmatan declared dead 2 years ago OS had more features than WP does now!

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      An existing issue.

                      Didn’t you know that Lord Elop pays all the people who say anything good about WP?

                      In reality Symbian had more features than iOS but iOS just annihilated Symbian in the high end. Apple took almost all the profits.

                      So, having all those features don’t make Nokia to succeed. It’s not about features.

                      Unfortunately Nokia tries to succeed and make money. They just can’t do that with just features. They need great products like iOS and Android. MeeGo was not that great product because of the lack of the applications. And because there were some other issues, but the lack of applications was a showstopper.


              • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                BTW, somewhere above you mentioned that WP is better for Nokia because it costs less. If this is the main reason to have WP as main smartphone platform, then why just put shit inside smartphones instead? Shit costs literally nothing, and can be produced by any employee, from CEO to janitor, while in case of any software you’ll yet need some engineers.

                • Ere oli aliarvostettu says:

                  You wanna take it this way? Well, let’s try it out.

                  They were already using some virtual sh*t. It was called Symbian. However manufacturing that sh*t in-house was resulting enormous costs.

                  Outsourcing can save some serious money.

                  • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                    That’s was just a joke. In fact, Symbian was a quite expensive shit, but that’s not a reason to replace it by another shit just because it costs less – if the only reason was lesser cost, then they can just use real shit from staff. I’m trying to say that “it costs less” reason isn’t enough to be a determining.

  25. Sheva1326 says:

    Good Job Nokia

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