Nokia Q4 2012 Results: $585 Million Profit

| January 24, 2013 | 245 Replies

Screen Shot 2013-01-24 at 11.09.47Bit of a nice headline at TheVerge. After several quarters of losses, Nokia seems to have recorded a profit of $585 Million ($10.83 Billion Revenue). Good (small) steps in the right direction no? As noted by the Verge, that’s significantly better than the 700M+ loss last quarter or the 1.2B loss last year (as part of the restructuring efforts). Nokia’s net cash rises from $4.7 Billion to 5.8 Billion.

Most of the profit, coming from, oddly enough, NSN.

Here’s the PDF document:


Fourth quarter 2012 highlights:
Nokia Group non-IFRS EPS in Q4 2012 was EUR 0.06; reported EPS was EUR 0.05.

  • - Nokia Group achieves underlying operating profitability, with Q4 non-IFRS operating margin of 7.9%.
  • - Nokia Group strengthened its net cash position by approximately EUR 800 million sequentially, of which
  • approximately EUR 650 million was generated by Nokia Siemens Networks.
  • - Devices & Services Q4 non-IFRS operating margin improved quarter-on-quarter to 1.3%, due to an increase in
  • gross margin as well as a decrease in operating expenses.
  • - Nokia Siemens Networks non-IFRS operating margin improved quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year to a
  • 14.4% in Q4, the highest level of underlying operating profitability since its formation in April 2007, primarily
  • due to an increase in gross margin.

Full year 2012 highlights:
Nokia Group full year 2012 non-IFRS EPS was EUR -0.17; reported EPS was EUR -0.84.

  • - Nokia Group achieves underlying operating profitability, with full year 2012 non-IFRS operating margin of
  • 0.4%.
  • - Nokia Group ends 2012 with a strong balance sheet and solid cash position. Gross cash was EUR 9.9 billion and
  • net cash was EUR 4.4 billion, after incurring cash outflows related to restructuring of approximately EUR 1.5
  • billion and dividend payment of approximately EUR 750 million.
  • - To ensure strategic flexibility, the Nokia Board of Directors will propose that no dividend payment will be made
  • for 2012 (EUR 0.20 per share for 2011). Nokia’s Q4 financial performance combined with this dividend proposal
  • further solidifies the company’s strong liquidity position.

79.6 Million mobile phones

6.6 Million Smart devices.

There’s an odd split here though…(total 86.3M devices this quarter)

9.3 Million Asha Smartphones

4.4 Million Lumia Smartphones

2.2 Million Symbian Smartphones.


Screen Shot 2013-01-24 at 11.27.32

The Nokia Outlook:


  • - Nokia expects its Devices & Services non-IFRS operating margin in the first quarter 2013 to be approximately negative 2 percent, plus or minus four percentage points. This outlook is based on Nokia’s expectations regarding  a number of factors, including:
      • - competitive industry dynamics continuing to negatively affect the Mobile Phones and Smart
      • Devices business units;
      • - the first quarter being a seasonally weak quarter;
      • - consumer demand, particularly for our Lumia and Asha smartphones;
      • - continued ramp up for our new Lumia smartphones;
      • - expected cost reductions under Devices & Services’ restructuring program; and
      • - the macroeconomic environment

Nokia continues to target to reduce its Devices & Services non-IFRS operating expenses to an annualized run rate
of approximately EUR 3.0 billion by the end of 2013.
- Nokia expects Location & Commerce non-IFRS operating margin in the first quarter 2013 to be negative due to
lower recognized revenue from internal sales, which carry higher gross margin, and to a lesser extent by a
negative mix shift within external sales.
- Nokia and Nokia Siemens Networks expect Nokia Siemens Networks non-IFRS operating margin in the first
quarter 2013 to be approximately positive 3 percent, plus or minus four percentage points. This outlook is based
on Nokia Siemens Networks’ expectations regarding a number of factors, including:

      • - competitive industry dynamics;
      • - the first quarter being a seasonally weak quarter;
      • - product and regional mix;
      • - expected continued improvement under Nokia Siemens Networks’ restructuring program; and
      • - the macroeconomic environment.

Nokia Siemens Networks now targets to reduce its non-IFRS annualized operating expenses and production overheads by more than EUR 1 billion by the end of 2013, compared to the end of 2011. Nokia Siemens Networks previous target was to reduce its non-IFRS annualized operating expenses and production overheads by EUR 1 billion by the end of 2013, compared to the end of 2011.

Cheers Alvester for the heads up.

Category: Nokia

About the Author ()

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Comments (245)

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  1. Amit says:

    Good 😁
    just bought Lumia 820

  2. That’s good. 5 ting Nokia!

  3. hytheam says:

    how did thy sell 86m phones how 2.2 symbian 8 asha and 4.4 lumia what are the others?

  4. Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

    This is great news!

    At last the bleeding has stopped. Bleeding caused by enormous costs of OS development.

    If this development continues and Nokia is able sell more Lumia phones, they will easily beat the Q4 2010 results.

    Elop has probably saved Nokia.

    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

      Elop is “saved” Nokia by turning it into dumbphonemaker. 4-5% up for device sales volume in Q4 (in comparison with Q3), in the Christmas season, most profitable season of the year? LOLWUT? Come on, it’s the holiday season and brand new WP8 Lumia line! Guess what to expect in Q1? Yes, sales will be down again.

      • Mark says:

        Would you rather they had died? You would, wouldn’t you!? :)

        Ah, you haters. Always make me smile. :)

        • Oleg Derevenetz says:

          No, I prefer not to hurt in the first place. Elop “saved” Nokia, previously beaten by him to coma, and Lumia still doesn’t work as before. There is nothing to be proud of.

          • Mark says:

            Ah, yes… this was the Nokia that lost 75% of its stock value between 2007 and late 2010, failed to compete with the iPhone and Android, arrogantly dismissing both and then totally alienated it’s consumer base with the N97, right?

            How many of those were Elop’s fault?

            a) None.
            b) None.
            c) None.


            • Oleg Derevenetz says:

              Oh, sure, all these YoY “red numbers” and disastrous Lumia sales numbers are not the Elop’s fault. The same old song every time. That’s all the N97 fault, of course.

              • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                So, are you trying to say that N97 was not a horrible failure at a time Android and iPhone were starting to gain some serious traction?

                At the time when Nokia really needed a new flagship phone to compete with the iPhone.

                Symbian was destined to collapse. You can’t even notice the strategy change from Symbian market share graph.

                Surely you consider Symbian’s collapse as Elop’äs fault because it started long before Elop started to work for Nokia? Now, how is that possible?

                • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                  I’m trying to say that Elop chose the wrong replacement for Symbian and, moreover, completely failed the whole transition process. People doesn’t like WP, and people doesn’t buy WP. N97 have nothing to do with that. It’s completely the Elop’s fault.

                  • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                    Well. What was the alternative?

                    Nokia was too arrogant to go with Android. It was just a bit over year earlier when Nokia was bragging how Android does not have success. Just a little over two years before that Nokia told the world how Android was not even worth evaluating because it was just hype.

                    Nokia was too arrogant.

                    How do you suppose Elop was going to kill that arrogance without killing Symbian?

                    Besides, it’s completely possible that Nokia would have sold extremely few Android phones even if they had the courage to choose that platform. Nokia was not destined to succeed with the right choice.

                    Symbian was destined to collapse but not the other way around.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      There was their own alternative, namely Harmattan. In comparison with WP:

                      1. Harmattan have “more traditional” interface, more similar to the familiar Android/iPhone interface, but with it’s own cool features, and true multitasking. WP interface decisions are at least arguable, and many people doesn’t like it.
                      2. In terms of apps Harmattan and WP was head-to-head at very start, and Harmattan could get built-in Android runtime if necessary (just like BB10 now). WP? No chance.
                      3. In terms of SDK Harmattan and WP was comparable, but process of porting apps from Symbian was easer for Harmattan, while process of porting apps from iPhone/Android was approximately the same complexity (if Harmattan would have get an Android runtime, even monkey will cope the Android->Meego porting process).

                    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                      1a. “True multitasking” seems to be a flaw in mobile phones. People don’t want to thank about multitasking. They want to use apps or applications. So, Harmattan was flawed because it had only “true multitasking”.

                      1b. No proof about real users really disliking WP UI. This is mostly a claim made in blogs.

                      2a. This is not true. There were considerably less applications for Harmattan at the time of the launch.

                      2b. No proof it would have worked in practice. It could have killed the development of the native applications. It’s also questionable if N9 would have had the processing power to run Android applications or if they would have worked well with the swipe UI.

                      3. It was not possible to easily port existing Symbian applications for Harmattan. The migration path was designed for making new applications. Not for porting existing ones. This was a huge failure because Symbian was already collapsing and there was less and less point about making new Symbian applications.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Pasanen oli hieno mies:

                      1a. People like multitasking. They like to be able, for example, run IM software in background, and WP7 wasn’t able to do it properly. This is one of the reasons (but may be not the main reason) why people abandoned Symbian in favor of Android, and not WP, after the beginning of so-called “transition process” according to Elop.

                      1b. WP sales numbers is an insufficient proof for you? People doesn’t like WP because of its interface and technological weakness. This is a fact.

                      2a. Any numbers with sources please? I’m professional developer, and I remember that numbers was comparable at very start (in the middle of 2011), but as soon as Harmattan was claimed as DOA by Elop, and WP was claimed as Nokia’s hope, further increase of number of apps for Harmattan was, naturally, limited.

                      2b. Yes, there was no proof, however there was a side-project called Alien Dalvik, but it wasn’t official. But now there is proof that development for WP doesn’t pay off, and developers are abandoning this platform. This is a fact. And there is also a fact that BB10 have no problem when running Android apps. Android apps run even on cheapest Android phones with not-so-good hardware, why there should be any problems to run them on N9? Don’t see any reasons for it.

                      3. It WAS possible to port existing Qt Quick apps to Harmattan almost without any effort. This is a fact as well.

                    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                      1a. They may like iOS style multitasking that is not “real multitasking”. That so called “real multitasking” results not so easy to use user experience and it may take a hit on battery. The lack of the mobile multitasking iOS offers is a flaw.

                      1b. That is not proof. As far as we know, it may be that only Android and iOS can succeed at this time. People want to have those two.

                      2a. Ath the time of the launch of N9 there were over 30 000 applications for WP.

                      N9 hardly matched that number.

                      2b. Not every application runs smoothly or even starts with any hardware. Swipe interface was also a huge problem for Android compatibility. Using Android applications like Fruit Ninja would have been extremely frustrating on N9.

                      2. There was hardly that many Qt Quick applications for Symbian. It was just a dream to have those. In reality almost every application was made without Qt compatibility. Even those using Qt usually used it only partially. Qt was a nice idea but it was just an idea. It never really materialized on Symbian’s applications.

                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Pasanen oli hieno mies:

                      1a. As I said above, they prefer Android-style multitasking, that is somewhat more close to real multitasking than iOS-like one. The “not so easy to use user experience”, “battery drain” and so on are excuses. Symbian have real multitasking all the time and is considered to be one of the most battery-saving OSes, while WP causes battery drain even without multitasking at all.

                      1b. So why Android and iOS can succeed at this time? Because of better UI user experience and advanced tech. WP looks like a bad iOS rip-off with all the same limitations (and even worse), but strange, ugly-looking and nonoptimal UI. That’s why it can’t succeed while Android and iOS can.

                      2a. Yes, may be N9 was hardly matched this number. But guess why? Because in the beginning of 2011 Elop claimed strategy change, and there was even some uncertainty, will be N9 released at all or not. Even when there was officially claimed that N9 still will be released, it was stated that this will be first and last Harmattan device, and it even did not become available in most countries! No wonder that there was not so many apps for it. But time shows us that bet on WP was bet on the wrong horse.

                      2b. N9 had decent enough hardware for mid-2011. Regarding Fruit Ninja, it availability was announced some time ago by Halfbrick on BB10 shortly after BB10 launch, as well as some other games from Halfbrick (BB10 have swipe gestures similar to N9, for example, to send app to background, and doesn’t have hardware keys, at least on my DevAlpha device, apart from power button and volume control buttons), so it seems that there is no problem.

                      3. Sure there was many Symbian apps back from ancient S60v3 or such without Qt, but number of Qt apps gradually increased, until the famous “burning platform” memo that was announced just a few month after S^3 launch. Anyway, it’s better to have an opportunity to easily port at least some of apps (Harmattan) or even most of apps (Android runtime) instead of full rewrite to the different SDK and interface paradygm (WP). BTW, S^3 devices have some important things for Qt, like hardware graphics acceleration, which earlier devices doesn’t have.

            • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

              That’s correct.

              This is something those guys just want to forget. They have this Symbian religion. They want to believe and those facts just won’t fit on that religious view.

              Would you believe some of them would loved to see Anssi Vanjoki as the new CEO? The guy who claimed Apple was never going to be anything more than a niche and that touch screen phones are irrelevant. That same Anssi Vanjoki.


              • Sonny says:

                You say that people dont want multitasking but apps right? Now why the f**k do all the tech blogs still say that wp8 is way behind android and iphone when it comes to apps?

                Please tell us why they killed the n9 just like that?

                • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                  People want applications on Android and apps on the iPhone. They also want to have real mobile multitasking. Not some crappy “real multitasking” that’s going to eat your battery.

                  N9 had no real application support. It was not possible to port most of the existing Symbian applications for it.

                  • Marc Aurel says:

                    So people who buy Android with its real multitasking are doing so despite the fact that they don’t want real multitasking? Your arguments are getting self-defeating.

                    As for N9 having no application support… Neither did iOS before 2008, Android before 2009 or Windows Phone before 2010. At least N9 had an easy-to-use API that was largely code compatible with the latest and preferred API for Symbian (Qt). That is MORE than what iOS etc. had at the time they started.

                    But I think you know how weak your arguments are rationally, and you just like yanking the chain of Symbian/MeeGo fans. There’s a name for that kind of behavior. Something about a fishing technique I believe…

                    • Noki says:

                      oli comments are ignorant, fictitious, lies, and dishonest.

                    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                      With “real multitasking” the device won’t close the applications if the system needs to free some memory. Android does this if the application is not a service. So, Android hardly has a “real multitasking” or are you going to make some new fancy definition about what is multitasking and what’s not?

                      When iPhone was launched there was no real competition in application support because there was no real application stores and distributing applications was really hard. Yes, Nokia had some attempts to make on but they were really rather miserable. Apple invented the modern App Store.

                      When N9 entered the market, there were already lots of application stores and applications. The world was completely different from what it was when iPhone launched.

                      N9 had Qt support but Symbian had hardly any real Qt applications. That’s why that migration path failed miserably.

                      Yes, most Symbian fans don’t bother to use logic. They just want to yell how Symbian is great and Nokia was destined to success with the strategy they had. Destined.


                    • Oleg Derevenetz says:

                      @Pasanen oli hieno mies:

                      “With “real multitasking” the device won’t close the applications if the system needs to free some memory”

                      No, that’s a different thing. With real multitasking, any app can continue to run in background (for example, while performing some calculations or something), while with iOS-style multitasking, app just can react on limited set of events. According to your definition, desktop Windows doesn’t have real multitasking, because it can close apps when there is not enough system resources.

                    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                      According to Wikipedia “multitasking is a method where multiple tasks, also known as processes, are performed during the same period of time.”

                      By this definition iOS and WP can do multitasking.

                      It’s strange how some people are obsessed with “real” multitasking.

                    • Marc Aurel says:

                      There were quite a bit Qt application either released or in the works in 2011 at the time of N9′s launch, despite the fact that EOLing Symbian effectively discouraged developers from developing for Qt.

                      You seem to think that Symbian fans believed that Symbian would have succeeded no matter what, but you represent the diametrically opposite position. In most cases, this one included, such extreme positions are both baseless and irrational, albeit I don’t think there actually are that many ‘religious’ Symbian fans as you seem to think.

                      In addition you often “forget” that MeeGo (and Meltemi) existed and was destined to replace Symbian anyway, which was decided months before Elop too over.

                    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                      There were some applications, but the number was extremely small compared to Android and iOS.

                      Symbian fans thought that it was competitive in the low end. In reality Android was starting to eat the low end quite fast.

                      MeeGo and Meltemi were planned to replace Symbian but they were hardly destined to do so. At least not in real world sales. The problem was that MeeGo was going to be a high end phone while most of the Symbian sales were low end.

                      Because of that there were too few people to pick up a MeeGo phone instead of a comparably priced Symbian handset.

                      Symbian’s ASP was something like 156€ in Q4 2010. Now, would you believe people would have happily picked up a 450€ MeeGo phone instead? Hardly.

                      Replacing low end with a high end does not work that well.

      • KeiZka says:

        Nokia was even before first and foremost a “dumbphonemaker”. Out of the hundreds of millions of devices they sell, the feature and lower phones have always been the mainstay to this day.

    • sf says:

      “Bleeding caused by enormous costs of OS development.”

      Lol man..

    • RVM says:

      Elop actually helped to wake up Nokia. However, that does not mean that other CEO wouldn’t do much better with different strategy.

      • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

        Yes, it was very important to wake up Nokia.

        Continuing with the old strategy would have probably resulted Nokia going down. There was nothing to stop the collapse of Symbian and the company was using massive amounts of money for OS development.

        Yes, if they had a better CEO it would have been an another story. However Elop seems to be way better compared to OPK.

        Vanjoki would have been a disaster. He is a man of no vision. Didn’t understand Android and claimed that touch screen phones have no future. Claimed that Apple will reman a niche. He has an awful track record.

  5. Noki says:

    AKA the area not directly controlled by Elop, is the one that does better NSN. And Ashas….

    Lumias? still pure money sink.

    • KeiZka says:

      Ah, the bitterness of some people.

    • Mark says:

      Really? ASP is up, Noki. :)

      • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

        Noki would have (probably) loved to see Nokia selling almost 10 million Symbian phones with and ASP of 70€. That’s a very optimistic scenario so it could have been worse.

        That’s what was going to happen with Symbian. It was just destined to fail.

        And MeeGo? Probably less sales compared to the WP. While WP is not iOS or Android, neither is MeeGo.

      • Noki says:

        Is it making a profit now?…. well I bet if they sold one Lumia for 1.000.000$ the asp would be off the roof, so go for it Elop.

        Truth is that it is asha line (you know the ones with low asp) and the NSN that is paying for the Lumia disaster.

  6. rstyle says:


    Nokia next move after 920 is very crucial, they need to STEP UP with the next flagship smartphone.


    • Noki says:

      No no no no no, Nokia please HOLD BACK!, its the things you don’t change that make a profit. Lumias??? just sell the smartphone division.

  7. bwisita says:

    @BloombergNews Breaking: Nokia to forgo dividend for first time in at least 143 Years

    • KeiZka says:

      Uh. Officially they began dishing out dividends in 1989.

    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

      I remember time when Nokia fans were laughing at Apple because Apple was not paying dividend. Instead of that they kept the money in the company so they can buy what they want and finance R&D as much as they want to.

      I bet it would have been a better idea for Nokia to pay less dividend in the past. That way they would have had the money to finance the R&D.

      But no, Nokia was too arrogant to do that.


      • RVM says:

        You obviously don’t know what are you talking about.

        • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

          Great arguments you have.

          No, you didn’t have any.

          It’s quite common for some people just to make claims like that while having no proof.


          • Marc Aurel says:

            Yes, exactly. Just look at your baseless estimate about potential Symbian and MeeGo sales in 2012 above.

            • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

              Just look how smartphone sales developed.

              Maybe you don’t want to look at the horrible decline of Symbian and the collapse of every other smartphone OS other than Android or iOS?


              • Jiipee says:

                - Quantities grew (for Lumia)
                - from 4% market share to 3%
                - according to one analyst source, margins fell
                – ebit is down

                Havent yet calculated anything

              • Marc Aurel says:

                Decline of market share in a rapidly growing market, not unit sales before Q1 2011. Maybe you don’t want to understand the difference?

                I don’t know what you mean by “every other” smartphone OS. The fact is that Bada managed to grow for a while under the Android onslaught. Better than WP in fact. Blackberry OS 7 also has not collapsed as much as Symbian has despite the fact that it has a much weaker app ecosystem and outdated UX compared to Symbian Belle (and arguably even Anna).

      • Bloob says:

        Except Nokia spent ( and I believe still spends ) the most in R&D in mobile industry…

        • incognito says:

          No they don’t, not since 2011. Which is sad, because had they not spent so much on R&D beforehand, they already wouldn’t have anything to show, they are lingering on their past successes now but that can’t last for the eternity.

  8. nn says:

    So, basically, everything except for NSN is going to hell (including locations, locations, locations). The good news is that they made a quite a big profit, the bad news they expect this will again turn into losses and the going-to-hell will continue in the next quarter.

    • nn says:

      BTW, North America device sales (smartphones+dumbphones) are 0.7M. That’s complete disaster for WP8 phones, they were barely able to get past the 0.6M maximum from Q2.

      • Marc Aurel says:

        Yes, it really doesn’t look good for the promised conquest of the NA with Lumia. We already know that sales in Q1 2013 will probably be lower due to seasonality, but the real test will be Q2 2012 when the New Lumias from MWC will become available. If the Lumia sales still remain disappointing, we can say that the Windows Phone strategy has failed completely. There’s still a small chance that it might succeed enough to keep Nokia smartphones floating for the time being, but a third ecosystem? BlackBerry 10 and Tizen have about as much chances of becoming one.

        • incognito says:

          BB10 and Tizen actually have higher chances to become the mythical third ecosystem, whatever that means, given that they don’t have almost three years of proven failures and don’t sport extremely polarizing UI paradigms – initially, at least, people will look far more favorably at them than at WP.

        • Noki says:

          I have been following the bb10 thing as of late and things are looking really good, there are tons of apps in app world for bb10 (incredibly a lot of them native) the android ones run very well.

          There is a real developer friendly atmosphere, I must say I’m impressed abd things are looking really good on that side of things.

      • dss says:

        Considering the immense marketing campaign… yes, no bueno for Microsoft. Just imagine their numbers without Nokia.. lol

  9. prashant says:

    I got to took some feedback frm shopkeeper as i bought an asha 205, yesterday they were quite satisfied with current nokia phones especially with lumia 920/820.

    • prashant says:

      it was really good to hear tht frm them.

    • Harangue says:

      Exactly, heard the same thing a while ago. First Nokia phone(s) in years they would recommend. And yes that includes 710/800/900, those weren’t that loved by shopkeepers apparantly.

      Ask them about Symbian devices and you’ll be amazed even further. Refusal to sell them because close to 1 in 1 was returned. That might be exaggerated, but it shows the sentiment towards Symbian and in turn Nokia a while back. WP boycot? More like a Symbian boycot.

  10. prashant says:

    it was really good to hear tht frm them.

  11. Luisito says:

    Over Yahoo Finance they says Nokia generated US$ 270, Someone that had read the papers can tell me, which is the real deal, 585 or 270… Who in the earth could NSN will save Nokia’s ass (before being losing money like a drunken millionarie on a cassino)

  12. Mark says:

    Dear haters:



    • Luisito says:

      Is playing golf with your god…

    • arts says:

      there is still many gods to worship. i.e:

      no more dividends, sales still aint back to q2 levels, bla bla bla.

      But hey, some people wanna see nokia go bankcrupt, and every quarter Nokia survives, makes them MORE UPSET. HAHAHAHHAHHAHA.

      this is fun. =D

      • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:


        Was it Tomi Ahonen who told us that Nokia was not going to survive as a company?

        Yes it was.

        Now that’s an accurate forecaster.

      • Luisito says:

        I don’t wanna see Nokia going Backcrupt, in fact right now I’m looking to others devices that are more appealing to my tastes and needs, but like those old girlfriend that you always look over & over again, just to see how’s she doing… I’m still here looking how’s doing the brand that once in time was the darling of my eyes, maybe it someday they bring something ala N900, weird, beautifull and yet so powerfull that still can kick into the ass of some moderns “smartphones”… Come’on Nokia I know you still can… Come’on

    • Noki says:

      I for one welcome nokia to its new found condition of a dumbphone maker, Network provider… And it can further its profits by terminating the LUMIA madness.

      • KeiZka says:


        Oh you silly.

      • Mark says:

        Again… ASP is UP, Noki.

        What part of that are you having difficulty with? :)

        • Marc Aurel says:

          Probably the part about margins. Since the sales of smartphones are so low in units, overall ASP of mobile devices is also significantly down YoY. So Nokia is still becoming more and more a sub-$80 feature phone maker. (I don’t use the term “dumbphone”, because it badly misrepresents the true capabilities of current Series 40 phones).

        • Noki says:

          heee the profit part?, is it profitable? now? NO!!!!! asp up! pathetic! so what did you expect to be down wile selling new Lumias with a higher price tag, you must have pretty bad expectations…

          Want something bad, 4.4 million Lumias on xmas season worldwide…on average less than 0.55 Million phones per terminal world wide, PATHETIC. After spending Billions on marketing.

          • dss says:

            Ya.. the ratio between marketing and sales scares me the most.. but sometime it does take a while for it to catch up. 2014 might be the year..

            • Noki says:

              hehehhe 2020 is a nice round number :) 2020 the year of windows on the mobile :)

              (please note the stab at the “year of the Linux desktop” joke that MS fans like s to make.)

              • who knows says:

                What’s wrong with you Noki? Get a life and stop spreading so much negativity around you.

                It’s actually disturbing that you are angry about Nokia making a good Q4. A Nokia-fan should be glad about these news. ASP are up 33 procent since last year, that’s huge. But noooo, you just have to rain on everybody elses parade (this goes for more than just Noki). Why don’t you start hanging around some crackberry forum instead? Obviously you are more into their type of devices anyway.

  13. Francis says:

    Looks good on Q4’12, but overall operating profit Y2012 is -2,303M !! All red for Devices & Services (-1,100M). Seem that NSN had reduced Nokia Losses this time. Cash reserve also drop -22% to 4,360M.

    • KeiZka says:

      Which I find severely amusing, since it was before the other way around: Smartphones and Devices propped up NSN.

      • Marc Aurel says:

        NSN is now enjoying the fruits of its technology leadership in 4G technologies. The cost cuttings help as well, but the question now is whether NSN still has enough R&D effort to maintain its leadership for the next generation. The Chinese (Huawei in particular) will catch up (by any means necessary…) in a year or two as far as 4G goes and NSN needs to have new technologies ready to counter the Chinese undercutting of prices.

  14. Dr.Smart says:

    Quite an achievement considering everything. Now it’s time to ditch the dead-weight that is WP Phones. WP phones’ prospect for Q1 is worse, and one sees no upward momentum.

    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

      No one living in Symbian religion?


      • Dr.Smart says:

        Get lost you creep.

      • Dr.Smart says:

        Who the f** said anything about Symbian?

        • Marc Aurel says:

          The good ‘ol strawman attack is the mainstay of people preferring the analogue of certain fishing technique on Internet discussion forums.

          • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:


            “and one sees no upward momentum”

            I’ll have to remember that it’s apparently accepted to say that one sees no upward momentum.

            At the time of the strategy change one sees no upward momentum for anything else but iOS and Android. Nice. You may like this statement because you didn’t oppose earlier that argument.


            • Dr.Smart says:

              Get lost you little creep ;)

              • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                I guess that’s another expression Nokia fans agree as a great way of communication.

                Unfortunately I’m not into Symbian religion.

                Yes, it was a funny joke when some people talked about Apple’s customers as a member of iReligion. However it’s very sad that Symbian was really the true religion for some people.

                This is what happens when people start to believe in marketing. Nokia had probably the best marketing in the world.

                • Noki says:

                  For some one that is “not into Symbian religion” You seam to have a huge fixation on it.

                  • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                    You seem to have a huge fixation on WP while you are not into Windows Phones?


                    • Noki says:

                      NO NO NO the one with a fixation is Elop you know there can only be one and all…

                      I have stated many times, nothing personally against Nokia experimenting with a pathetically small platform, after all I’m/was a meego fan, just have a problem with “there can only be one” strategy.

                      I also have a problem with people that vindicate that pathetically small platform by saying that everything else is, pathetically small, displaying a gigantic cognitive dissonance…. Do you know some one like that???? I do….

                    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                      Nokia was always really focusing on just one platform. When they had Symbian, Maemo was just a hobby for them.

                      It wasn’t Elop who decided that there can be only one platform they really push.

                      This error was made long before Elop. It started even before OPK but OPK was embracing the idea. Do you think they ever really pushed Maemo when Symbian was selling well? No. They started to work on MeeGo only after it was obvious that Symbian was not able to succeed too long.

                      Why not blame people who decided to push Symbian instead of Maemo in 2005-2009? It’s easier to blame Elop, but the real people to blame are those who were focusing on Symbian.

                    • v.s.i says:

                      ^ The obvious has been already stated before me.

                    • Marc Aurel says:

                      You mean that we can only put the blame on one person or at the most one group of people? The Symbian clique did some harm to Nokia particularly in 2007-2009 (I wouldn’t go as far back as 2005) and the S60 clique did some damage within the Symbian clique by killing Series 90 before that. All that goes partially back to Jorma Ollila himself and the matrix organization, which encouraged internal competition too much and stifled effective cooperation innovation.

                      SO yeah, there were many mistakes made before Elop took over. It’s just that he has not made things much better, either. There is very little basis in fact for saying that Elop has saved Nokia. I think he has botched the transition from Symbian to WP pretty badly.

                      I am not saying anything about the strategy change itself here — there are just too many unknowns to say much about it. It wasn’t doomed to fail, but neither was the old strategy. Nobody really can say much more than that without claiming supernatural knowledge.

  15. sh says:

    4.4 milion lumia ??
    what this means windows phone 8 or this includes old lumia generation
    because one windows phone 8 device (920) can not sell as well as one symbian

  16. DJ says:

    Where is a good news in this report? Only 4.4 million Lumia phones soled is a disaster. After 2 years since switching to WP Nokia is still unable to sell 10 millions Lumia. That shows that WP is a OS that nobody want. If Nokia went with Android they would have been able to sell more phones and probably be biggest Android phone maker.

    • KeiZka says:

      Just like HTC is selling, just like ZTE is selling, just like Sony is selling, just like Motorola is selling, just like…

      The grass isn’t necessarily greener on the other side of the fence.

      • Sonny says:

        So you are directly comparing nokia to the likes of htc and zte.

        Just shows ur faith in Nokia!

        I am 110% sure if nokia went with android they would have beaten samsung by a mile!

        • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

          Funny how you talk about faith while you don’t want to see people talking about Symbian religion.


        • dss says:

          Can’t beat Samsung.. that was back in the late 90s and early 00s … when Nokia held all the cards with Symbian. Now they are where Samsung were back then.. things go round and round

          • DJ says:

            Android on Nokia would have kill Samsung. Camera, build quality and Nokia Maps would have been enough to push Nokia to the top. Majority of Symabian user preferred Android over WP and they switched in masses to Android and not to WP.

      • Marc Aurel says:

        Sony and LG are improving their performance, so it’s not all dark for Android makers other than Samsung. Of course Android still would not have been an automatic success for Nokia, but then again nothing would have in the competitive environment of 2011 and 2012.

    • tomwhat says:

      Puh…needed to scroll down really long to find this first post of mentioning only 4,4 million Lumias sold. Didn’t MNB recently estimate something around 6 millions recently?

      This is a complete fail!!! WP strategy sucks like hell and me (2 N9s my girlfriend 1 N9) spend my money now on other things (3 Playbooks bought for family and waiting for BB10)

      I wonder about the stubbornity here of some WP pushers: I recently tried WP8 in reality and was shocked how restricted it still is…Real professionals enjoy deeply integrated services like on N9 and very soon on BB10, not big tiles and the need of installing 50 apps extra…

  17. zxz says:

    nokia is still dead

  18. Ityu says:

    Beside we what I would love to see if they partner up with Canonical and start make some Ubuntu Linux phones.

  19. spacemodel says:

    The only positive point I see is the ASP on smart devices YoY rise from $186 to $248 although the overall ASP has lost $8,-

    But looking at all the other parts YoY it’s pretty bad: Net cash down $1.2 billion, total mobile devices sold down 24%, total smartphone devices sold down 81%, total operating loss $2,3 billion and a negative outlook for Q1 2013 of 2% operating loss.

    The total of Lumia’s sold in Q4 2012 is 4.4 million which is, especially in the most interesting quarter of the year, nothing more than pathetic.
    Look at the US, 700.000 Lumia’s sold, wow, I said it before, Nokia’s stategy with WP in the US is a complete failure.

    WP7 had no traction and with WP8 it is the same song again, this is it, 4-5 million per quarter is the limit for WP, the mobile world have already decided, it’s iOS or Android all the way.

    Of course there’s always room for some niche product like WP but posters who think WP will ever reach a double digit marketshare are just delusive.

    Nokia’s quarter was saved by the Asha’s (and financially by NSN, RIM’s payment, sell of HQ) but Asha is Nokia’s last defence line, is losing marketshare on a YoY basis and the prospect of even cheaper and, especially, much better Android’s is not a prospect to look forward to.

    Elop stated in februari 2011 that the transition period from Symbian to WP would be two years and now we are here, from 20 million sold smartphones down to 6.6 million.
    This transition period is an utter failure and there’s not a single sign it will be any better; it’s time for change.

    • spacemodel says:

      Correction: Yoy total smartphone devices sold down 66%, not 81%.

    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:


      What would have happened without the transition?

      Perhaps 10 million Symbian phones with ASP of 70€? Huge cost from OS development and net cash would have been considerably lower?

      Elop didn’t kill Symbian. It was just collapsing because it was no longer match for iOS and Android. That’s sad but Nokia really had no chance with Symbian.

      If you look at the market share graph illustrating Symbian’s collapse, you can’t even pinpoint the moment the strategy change was made. That’s how fast Symbian was collapsing even before Feb 2011.

      • Luisito says:

        Yup… Stock market is thinking the things aren’t so rosy… pre-market Nokia stocks down 7.xx % yup… in the grand scheme of things, this isn’t so good… Q1 2013 will be key to finally judge the whole WP transition…

        • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:


          If you think the stock market is going to judge the value of those reports, it seems that Nokia has been succeeding better compared to Apple.



      • Marc Aurel says:

        Yes, but it was a strongly growing market, so market share does not have the same meaning as on a stable market, where market share is everything. If you look at unit sales you CAN pinpoint the strategy change.

        Of course you are also conveniently forgetting (for the nth time) that Symbian was not going to continue soldier onforever with the old strategy, either. With Meltemi coming to replace Symbian in the low end in H2 2012 or H1 2013, Symbian was going to be phased out by the end of 2013 in any case.

        • Noki says:

          Yeah symbian was going to be killed no mater what we all knew it. But gracefully and quietly, and milking every possible sale they could out of it.
          Instead elop stupidly I and I mean STUPIDLY killed it publicly send most users to something else and managed to convert less than 1/8 into Lumia sales…
          This is the Microsoft way, works for them because they have a desktop monopoly so people don’t have a choice, but guess what? wen they have one they take it…
          Result after 2 years nokia is reduced into a minor player position in the smartphone market..

          • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:


            In the real world the strategy change never really killed Symbian sales.



            You can’t even pinpoint the moment when the strategy change was made. Symbian was collapsing and there was nothing to change that. That collapse started in 2010 and it was just going to continue in 2011.

            Symbian was destined to fail. It was just not competitive any more.

            Elop saved Nokia by ending futile OS development.


            • Noki says:

              Care to put the one about the actual sales? You know the one that masters the most no?

              No because you are a Dishonest liar that will bend/twist the truth in any way you see fit, you have the moral fibre of a worm and must have some big problem symbian that needs to put it in an altar or somthing.

              And what the thing you recently got mimicking that TV clown that goes by the name Gordon Ramsay, finishing all of your sentences with “yes” do you think that makes you look any more obnoxious??? strangely enough it does not it just makes you look silly.

              • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                I suppose your Master Tomi Ahonen has already pointed out the unit sales. Well. Partially. He tends to forget that the ASP was down even in Q4 2010 when Nokia launched Symbian^3. Market share is a great tool for reviewing trends. Trends are very important. They tell you lots about the possible outcome the current strategy has. In this case no one has given me any valid points about what would have stopped the collapse of the market share.

                Do you have any explanations for that? What would have stopped the collapse? Symbian’s collapse that is. Yes, I know about MeeGo, but it was not going to help that much in 2011 no matter what.

                I suppose you are not an adult. That’s because adults rarely insult each other when they are trying to have a real conversation. Or if you are not trying to talk about this, please tell us that you just want to insult and behave like a child who is not getting everything at once.

                About that yes.

                Why did you pick up a nick that means cinder in Finnish? Nokia is a Finnish company after all. Or maybe I don’t watch Gordon Ramsay as much as you do and never knew he was saying Yes? It never occurred to you that there just might be some other reasons for using that word?


                • Marc Aurel says:

                  ASP is still down for all devices because the Lumias sell so little in numbers. It’s not JUST about market share in a growing market, but unit sales matter as well. The predictive value of market share is not absolute.

                  Everybody knows Nokia was in trouble already back in 2010. There were many reasons for that; lackluster hardware (the N97 in particular), outdated UX (S60v5), poor app ecosystem (Symbian C++ being a bitch to develop for). There were also fixes or at least stop gaps planned for those of varying effectiveness. Their true effectiveness was never seen because of the strategy change and the way Elop handled it (for example it took him nearly FOUR MONTHS to say that Symbian would be supported until 2016 after the 11th of February announcements. How’s that for poor communication?)

        • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

          Yes, market growth helped to keep up the unit sales for some time. Market share is the best metric for evaluating the performance of a mobile OS. It doesn’t care about seasons or problems in the economy. It’s just telling how well someone is performing.

          There is no proof about Nokia’s strategy change resulting the collapsing unit sales. However the development of the market share clearly points out that Symbian was going to lose unit sales if the market didn’t grow enough to cover the loss of the market share.

          On the other hand, it was not possible for one to see upward momentum for the Meltemi/MeeGo strategy.


          • incognito says:

            While I said I won’t respond to the ignoramuses such as yourself, I’m writing this for the sake of discussion: Should Apple abandon the iPad line? It’s been considerably dropping in market share on a rapidly growing market.

            Or your theory only applies to only one type of mobile OSes, the one that suits the best your ‘argument’?

            • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

              Yes, Apple should abandon making products not going to make profits. I think you are missing a point here.

              This applies to any OS.

              Symbian’s problem was rapidly collapsing market share, dropping ASP (16% YoY even in Q4 2010!!!) and shrinking profits for Nokia. Just compare the EPS from Q4 2007 and Q4 2010.

              • Marc Aurel says:

                Shrinking profits are not the same as losses. Besides, Nokia was going to phase out Symbian in any case by decisions made before Elop took over. Another thing is that back in early 2009 Symbian could still have been saved by taking decisive measures, but by 2010 it was too late for that.

          • tomwhat says:

            Man, declaring Meego DOA before releasing N9 and you wonder why there was no momentum? How often do we need to mention this again? You have a problem in your logic

  20. Viipottaja says:

    Good to see the year end with good and in part great results. Also happy to see the whole year reach underlying profitability, did not quite expect that. LOOOOONG way to go in the smartphone area, and need to keep up the good work in other parts as well, obviously.

  21. Pegasus says:

    Nokia now the glorified King of Dumbphone Makers. All hail the the Dumbo king

    • KeiZka says:

      It always was. Majority of devices sold by Nokia have always been feature phones.

      • incognito says:

        The majority of profits, however, were not. Quite the opposite – NSN was a loss-making machine, dumb/featurephones were having modest profits at best, and the smartphone (converged, as they called them) department was the one making considerable profits.

        Once the latter started showing decline, they’ve sacked OPK and hired Elop to fix that… However, what he did is – he completely reversed the order of things. Instead of fixing what is broken, he smashed it even further. Incompetence at its finest. And Nokia now is de-facto glorified featurephone maker – on a market that is exponentially switching to smartphones. Bravo!

        • Viipottaja says:

          Do you have specific data to support that? My understanding/recollection is that feature phones have “always” been quite profitable (with smaller margin per device most likely, naturally). Smartphone profits have collapsed.

          • incognito says:

            They were profitable, but the trend since mid 2005 was not favoring them. I’d have to look, but I think that in 2008 they made more profits from the smartphone/converged department than from the others, especially given the size of each. And that was a global trend, anyway, so naturally Nokia was at its front. Then something happened (we’ll pretend to not know what) in 2009 and Nokia started reversing that position, which ultimately got OPK sacked…

            Elop just accelerated the backwards running. Considerably.

            • Marc Aurel says:

              I think that is a pretty good short description of what happened. OPK and the Symbian clique made many mistakes in 2007-2010, Elop was hired to fix things, but so far he has not accomplished much. NSN is largely autonomous and Series 40 full touch project was started before Elop took over. He did give it more resources in 2011, so there perhaps is his greatest achievement as the CEO. It’s something, but not what was expected from him in 2010.

  22. Janne says:

    Congratulations to Nokia for the better than expected profit! That said, the Lumia number is obviously still “meh”.

    I promised to revisit the question of Lumia’s feasibility after the Q4/2012 results (e.g. in the comments here So, here it comes.

    A little quote of my train of thought from that thread:

    I think it [Lumia strategy] can already be called a mistake. Too many risks were realized. As for a “huge huge mistake”, that would take Lumia failing. And when can we say it has failed? I can answer for myself: Bad Q4 numbers – and/or a major flat-lining effect in Lumia growth over Q2-Q3-Q4.

    We now have those Q4 numbers. I think three things are very obvious:

    1) Nokia has managed to stop the death spiral. Many assumed they would be bankrupt soon, I never thought there was an immediate fear of that and think so even less now. Second, many were certain (and others feared, including me) that Nokia would be acquired in 2012. I am now more hopeful that an acquisition will not happen and most importantly it did not happen before WP8 Lumia got to market, meaning the transition was not disrupted by such news. WP8 Lumia is getting its time in the sun and doing, well, here’s how…

    2) Lumia is very much a mediocre player on the market – a great product in my opinion, but a mediocre player. It happens. Sometimes a great product is not enough and, for Nokia, Lumia has not been enough. It was an abrupt move that clearly didn’t work out as planned, with an orderly transition away from Symbian and first Lumia year basically a bust. That has to be said. These are things they failed at. That said, Lumia is a mediocre player on the market, it is not a failure. I think that much is obvious too. There isn’t proof of truly healthy momentum for Lumia, but there is momentum. Together with first point, I don’t see Nokia moving away from this strategy anytime soon. It will work out, sort of.

    3) Nokia’s Lumia numbers for Q4/2012 were very much constrained. Not only was WP8 delayed well into the middle of the quarter, the global availability was so weak (e.g. people in Finland are sometimes still waiting for their November preorders to be fulfilled) that the Lumia number for Q4/2012 is not supporting a flat-line theory for Lumia at all. Q3 drop was expected due to Osbourning, Q4 doing better than Q2 with constraints and delays shows growth. Lumia will continue to grow. With mediocrity.

    So, was the Lumia strategy a good one? I can’t say I think it was. Too much has gone awry. It is a mediocre strategy, because despite the failings, they have managed to create truly world user-experience products with it after years of duds. Lumia 920 for example is truly a great product. They are winning some hearts and minds with it, but the money-making progress is just too slow to be called any kind of success. It just isn’t bringing in enough cash for that. Clearly, they should have navigated the waters here differently.

    What makes further conclusions so hard is: Under Elop Nokia has actually fixed pretty much everything else but the smartphone market success. It is an all-around healthier company size vs. innovation-wise. NSN making great profits is nothing to be scoffed at, that is big news and has now continued to many quarters. Mobile phones’ answer to cheap Android has been clearly a resounding success, even if that benefit may have an expiration date on it. The products Nokia now has out, from lowest Asha to highest Lumia (even the 808), are arguably some of their best work in years. Not to mention the design, the accessories etc. are arguably better than what Apple produces. Nokia ended 2012 in a fairly good condition, all things considering. I just don’t see the market pressure forcing Elop out anytime soon, unless he chooses to leave.

    So I think it is conclusive, no, Lumia was not a very good strategy. It just isn’t bad enough either. It will stick around, I don’t have any doubts about that anymore. Just like Nokia.

    I know I haven’t stayed out as much as I planned, but I have reduced this commentary a lot already. It is tiresome and usually goes nowhere, I’m glad to see an end to it. I know one could add a lot of analysis to this, such as the Windows 8 progress or WP8 progress from other manufacturers, but I’m content in just saying I think signals there are positive enough to support my “mediocre” line of thinking. They are growing and will grow, with mediocrity. I’ll go back to the regularly scheduled product-announcement watching instead of this market speculation from now on. I consider this transition to be over and the results to be: Extremely mediocre, but not life-threatening.

    Bring on MWC, my 808 could use a successor!

    • Noki says:

      Honest good review, keep em coming..

      Some comment…
      I believe Nokia was not acquired in 2012 for the simple reason that the cost of money last year was way to high and no one would invest in 2012. had it been this year and things would have probably be different..(And we do not know what is Microsoft position on the subject and if they have vented in to the market that they would outbid any offer, I suspect this to be true as well).

      Nokia can also send a huge tank you to everything that was not Elop main plan or even outside its management, like NSN, or asha line. They preformed way better than any one expected, NSN I’m really surprised with the numbers its was considered a dead horse not so long ago, and one that Nokia should sell asp. Asha was not much of a surprise given the nice UI it has a competitive price range good value for money, unfortunately the lack of vision from Elop as removed any future from it. I expect some html5 compatibility coming to it but that’s it.

      Mediocre is a very good word to qualify Lumia range. and this being the grand Elop plan should apply to is CEO skills, Mediocre,. I would actually had Incompetent because all things taken into account, the quality of the hardware the price range, the money spent on advertisement. I think sales number are Pathetic.

    • v.s.i says:

      Let that 808 successor have *at least* HDMI out and I’ll pretend I don’t know the 808 also had FMRx/Tx. C’mon guys, you did it on a 5 year-old CPU and who-knows-how-old kernel, why not on WP?
      P.S. Stereo speakers would be very nice, my old N81 can only approve of it. :)

      • incognito says:

        It will have only what Microsoft allows it to have, such is the way when you put your company’s fate in other company’s hands. You should not write/rant to Nokia about it, but to Microsoft instead.

      • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:


        808 does not have a HDMI connector used with most televisions.

        When I have been trying to connect my 808 to a television, that attempt had failed just because I was supposed to have some connector I didn’t have.

        So, it’s some mHDMI standard but that’s not HDMI used with televisions. You still need a connector.

        • dss says:

          Its amazing how clueless you are.

          • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

            It’s amazing how clueless you are if you think that the requirement for having a connector in order to connect the device to a TV is not an issue if you don’t have that connector.

            Are you just clueless or arrogant?

            Not having a connector is a real problem. You don’t get it?


            • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:


              Traditional arrogance in the way Nokia used to do it.

              Failed to connect your phone to a television because you should gen a connector? That’s users fault. Blame the user for not having an adapter while the phone was marketed with a TV connection.

              If someone makes a book about the arrogance Nokia had, it’s great to know he or she can see some real world Nokia style arrogance even in today.

              It’s users fault for not having that connector wherever he or she goes.


              • Noki says:

                You are out of this world…..
                wow so weird one as to use an HDMI cable to connect to your HDMI TV Wow! its like needing a cable to connect to your printer. the lunacy of them…

                are you having a fit because the cable is adapted to phones, (the HDMI standard plug is to big for a phone)? is that your problem? Get a life, you are just plain crazy,

                • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                  I remember how some Nokia fans were laughing at iPhone users about how they needed an adapter for connecting the iPhone to an HDMI television. Using an adapter was a major issue for them.

                  Not when I agree with them and say how the 808 needs an adapter, people are saying that it’s not an issue and I should not think it as a problem.

                  In both cases I need an adapter. It’s just as simple as that. Maybe some people are indeed having double standards?


                  • Noki says:

                    OOOOO for crying out loud.. Are you for real???
                    so first you make an argument saying its bad right? then… its not? and then lunaticly you say “others” from 5 years go, have “double standards” do you at least see the lunacy of your argumentation?

                    I’m beguiling to think that you need medical attention.
                    Not kidding, you should see a doctor because you have some serious cognitive issues.

                    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                      Please quote me saying it was bad? Apparently I said it was an issue leading into a failure to connect. But bad? Maybe you fabricated that “bad” you claim I was saying? Issue does not equal bad.

                      You could also point out where I was referring to something that happened 5 years ago. Or maybe you fabricated that 5 years?

                      Maybe it’s you who should try to focus on reading and understanding?

                    • RIM says:

                      Is this oli character for real?

      • dss says:

        EKA2 is not that old… 1998 initial release.

        • Marc Aurel says:

          It’s older than the Windows CE kernel used in WP7. Both iOS and Linux in Android are much newer as well. A fact is that the age of the core system was a problem for Symbian hardware development. It could not just be ported to almost any ARM SoC rapidly like Linux/Android.

    • dss says:

      As soon as they signed that contract with Microsoft, I knew that it was going to be great for MS and.. pretty much nothing in it for Nokia expect some cash thrown at them for the time being.

      Microsoft is the only one profiting here. Without Nokia, they will pretty much have NO SALES.. HTCs WP efforts are so tiny, it wouldn’t even matter. Samsung doesn’t give a fukc either.

      So.. Nokia is playing its part in Microsoft’s strategy, and that is all there is to it. I’ve said it many times before.. what Microsoft pulled is probably one of the best business maneuvers you could wish to see, and I respect them for it.

    • nn says:

      You know, very clever comment. I like how you say WP, while not excellent, is basically acceptable and Nokia should stick with current strategy, without explaining why is that. Especially after you claimed utmost importance of the Q4 results, and were waiting for the final numbers. You could write this half year ago or half year in future, and with some changes to the product names, and nobody could spot the difference.

      They are not out of the bankruptcy territory by any chance. If nothing else, just notice how they choose to not pay dividend. Last year they were losing billion per quarter and they still paid it, but not this time. If there is no miracle or no drastic change, the current course means eventual collapse. The outlook into Q1 speaks for itself.

      Sure, Elop fixed everything, maybe with little problem remaining in smartphones. Good you don’t go into the specifics, because except for the NSN, everything else is worse. QoQ often worse than at the end of 2011. And better not mention locations, locations, locations, which was supposed to deliver great things with the arrival of W(P)8.

      Instead we get more of the same empty lines that bears no resemblance to reality about how Elop is finally making truly innovative, ground breaking phones, the UI are outstanding, etc etc. Again, reality won’t bow to these subjective, fluffy terms.

      • Bloob says:

        For once, I pretty much have to agree with you.

        @Janne, you wrote a lot ( again :)), and some of it is good, and I do agree with WP being a mediocre product sales-wise, but like nn said, that was the case, and predictable, 6 months ago.

        • Janne says:

          Perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn’t. What’s the point? Now I’m saying it is sure. We have enough data to be certain in my opinion. Others make other judgement calls, these are just my opinions. IMO it is not going away, but it sure as heck isn’t any kind of fast-track to market dominance either.

          I think the WP move has proven not to be very successful, but also not a failure they would now walk away from or would be forced away from. I do think clearly they should have executed differently on and after February 11th, though, that much is evident. But what they do now is completely different from speculation on what they should have done.

          Elop, he may be out during 2013 one way or the other, but I don’t see Nokia moving away from Lumia or Nokia itself going anywhere. Acquisition is of course always a risk, but likelihood and effects of such now would be somewhat more limited than would have been pre-WP8 launch.

          So, no, Lumia didn’t completely fail but it sure as heck isn’t any kind of success either. It will march forward very… mediocrely. In my opinion Nokia’s strategy shift moved from an uncompetitive product (Symbian) to a mediocrely competitive product (Lumia), that is clear to me.

      • Janne says:

        nn: If you really seriously think Nokia lost “a billion a quarter” last year in any terms that would be relevant to bankruptcy, you need to take some financial lessons. In reality the loss of actual assets that would be relevant as far as bankruptcy is concerned was far less. The bankruptcy fears were much bloated, as was the certainty of some about acquisition. Fears about latter were founded of course, but not certainty.

        As for Elop, I don’t think he fixed all the things you allude. But under his watch not all things are bad, which means a forced CEO change and a strategy shift seems unlikely in my books. They may change CEO this year, but I now find a strategy change unlikely. In many ways, Nokia now is in better shape than before. Yes, even those location services you seem to single out without really digging into the meat of the report. I do agree smartphone side is doing very mediocrely and that the Asha line probably has an expiration date somewhere in the future.

        But yes, I do think we just witnessed the quarter that says Lumia is doing very mediocrely and will continue to do so, but on the other hand is here to stay. And so is Nokia.

        What part of my disparaging of Nokia’s choices gave you the impression I agreed with them. I definitely think there are many points in time they should have done different, two of my favourites: February 11th, 2011 and the day OPK started, back in 2005, and decided to ignore Maemo in favor of Symbian. You just won’t see me joining any choirs demanding a Nokia strategy change today, because I don’t see what good that would do. I make no apologies of the fact that I like my Lumia and Nokia’s current products over their 2009-2010 offering. I think they can sustain Lumia and I like the products more than in years. I have no desire to go through another Nokia transition.

        I’m off to enjoy Nokia products for a change. Enough of this bull****.

    • Jiipee says:

      Quite good summary, though, I have some comments. Mine is not final since Ive said to you that I only make my mind Spring 2013, when the amazing devices are out.

      First of all I keep WP strategy, Nokia general strategy and Elop as separate items. I would rate them as follows (1-10)
      WP: 4
      Nokia: 6
      Elop: 3
      WP results have been poor at best. I dont know how much money they have put in the marketing campaigns etc, but the volumes are miniscule. One needs to take into account that Q4 was christmas quarter and they again lost to the market growth ie market share fell. I agree partially to your notion that 920 and probably 820 would have sold better, if Nokia had been able to ship. However, the component short supply is a function of the strategy. According to sources, wp8 has been in the works almost as long as wp7. Why on earth Nokia has not used their partnership position to pressure MS to support more socs? The previous point is irrelevant, if the shortages are related to eg screens from LG. This was one of the
      points Elop argued against Meego! I claim that it is more likely that Nokia would have Android or Maemo/Meego 920 out earlier than WP8 version. This cannot be verified before the NDAs are over ;)

      Nokia: NSN has done amazing turnaround. Lets see how it fares. You might not agree, but I dont give credit of it to Elop. NSN is partially owned by Nokia, but has its own governance bodies. The NSN chairman is known for his restructuring abilities and the CEO seems competent. Mobile phones seem to operate efficiently and continues to launch good products. The double sim improvement can be credited to Elop, or not. The net present value of Nokia’s location business future potential diminishes every quarter they make loss and do not heavily increase turnover. AR might do it some time in the future Google ate Here Maps for lunch on iOS.
      Elop: he gets 3 points for his leadership competence. According to the tweets eg from a Nokian who worked on Meltemi, Elop has managed to motivate and empower people. Unfortunately his strategic competences and mobile market underatanding have failed him. Internet for next billion – scrapped after Elop nominated a proven failure to lead the project. S40 wont cut it, unless the smarterphone guys brought something really special in, which I doubt since it seems to have beenbased on Li-Mo, now tizen. Future disruptions was at first said to include Meego. Scrapped and IP left unsold. WP communication was one of the worst disasters ever especially aince we now know that WP7 was only mid-term solution. Evidently badly negotiated contract with MS. Lets assume that on Nokia’s payroll were 5000 OS developers and average pay was close to average Finnish engineer (Nokia pays lousy salaries). They save maybe half a billion a year. Then one has to consider that there were excess people, who should have been sacked in any case, not all were fired and Nokia could have earned some license fees in the future that now go to MS, the annual savings couldnt have been more than half a billion. Location revenues do not show increase (and are in big part internal.billing), MS gets support from Nokia to optimize WP7. Mapping is given with no extra charge (or can be part of the platform support). Etc.

      I agree with you conclusion as Ive agreed before. WP path should be kept at least until Summer. Android needs to be developed in the secret as a plan B so that it does not take a full year to launch. Elop has to be replaces, if Q1 does not show profit for smartphones. No more excuses.

      • Janne says:

        Jiipee: Worthy post from you to the discussion, as usual. Thank you for it.

        Personally, I wouldn’t keep all of those items separate though. I am definitely not crediting NSN turnaround to Elop personally, any more than I am discrediting him personally for many of the failings. I know it is common for the naysayers to blame Elop for the bad and not credit him with the good, but I will neither do that or the opposite. Elop is just one man there, bustling from meeting to meeting no doubt. There are many variables and many people doing the actual things they do. There was a lot rotten at Nokia, it won’t go away overnight. I do blame him for miscommunicating February 11th, because that was on him – he was on stage. For many other things I hold a larger number of people at Nokia responsible, for good or for bad.

        Not that Elop’s performance isn’t a factor. Of course it is – and he is ultimately responsible were it to fail. But it was never me who made this about Elop, it was others who vilified him and make it necessary to disproportionately to address “the Elop question” on discussions like this one. The board and the management team created the new strategy, and it is being executed by a much wider array of people at Nokia. Cherry-picking blame towards Elop in some areas and credit to others in other areas is not really how it rolls in reality. Either CEO is responsible for the good and the bad or he isn’t. I don’t blame OPK for the Symbian religion inside Nokia either, although I do blame him for not having the courage to fight it head on.

        My first point (in the message you replied to) was that Nokia is now in a better shape. That does take pressure away from its management, including Elop. Hence my conclusions on that.

        Your assumptions on Symbian development cost were lowballed in my opinion and exclude, for example, the significant subcontractor cost. I’m not even sure that 5000 number is correct, but I’m too over this discussion to go there. Equally your assumption that mapping is given with no extra charge is wildly speculative in my view – and you are brushing the location initiatives and its potential aside far too quickly and broadly. You know better than that, don’t eat from the trolls hand. Mostly I agree with the rest of your outlines, Lumia performance has been disappointing and there have been various failures during the transition. That said, Lumia is here to stay. OK, who knows about the long-term, but I think we have enough to know it isn’t about “keep until Summer” anymore. Lumia will be with us longer than that, but just don’t expect it to set any world records.

        Finally, as always, it is possible that a MeeGo strategy could have worked better (and/or faster) than the Windows Phone strategy. It could have worked. It also could have failed spectacularly. Let’s see how RIM fares, at least we have that (imperfect) proxy to look at.

        Isn’t anyone else tired of this same-o-same-o? I know I am. I’d rather get back to discussing the products.

        • Marc Aurel says:

          We’ll go back discussing the products when new ones are announced… But one last comment on the MeeGo strategy: I don’t think it could have flopped much worse than the WP strategy already has (based on e.g. the performance of Bada), but of course the WP strategy COULD have succeeded better as well. That’s about as much as anyone can say.

          • jiipee says:

            Agree. I still think that including WP to the pack would have been wise move in any case. And since there was no future for WP without Nokia, they should have been able to get similar deal in any case.

            5000 devs would have easily been enough to silently escort Symbian to its grave. I have a rough idea how much and what the subcontractors (eg. Digia and Ixonos) did. They still would have needed to downsize, everyone knew it. There are plenty of houses build by (ex)Nokia personnel in Oulu, Espoo and Tampere by people who had nothing to do.

            Without knowing enough of the state of Meltemi, Id still think that would have been a clever move by Nokia. They would have disrupted the whole mid-priced smartphone market. Optimized, affordable phone with Swipe UI and Qt. The hype would have followed just as happened with Jolla, who are group of 50 people. Asha touch is selling millions and there would be a significant installed base quite soon.

            Ill try to quit commenting as well. And only revisit this topic after BB10 first results and (if) Jolla device is out.

            Due to business solution choises, WP seems a no-go for me atm and N9 serves me well enough. Also, if there will be Qt support for Android, we might be making some Qt based apps. We’ll see what happens in few years.

      • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

        Only 5000? They outsourced 3000 Symbian developers to Accenture, kicked out 1000-1500 MeeGo developers and over 700 Meltemi devs from Ulm. In addition to that people have been leaving Nokia voluntarily. And that’s just a part of the story.

        In addition to that they had lots of Symbian developers focusing on WP.

        In addition to developers they had vast amounts of managers.

        The yearly cost could have been something between 500 – 2000 million. Possibly even more.

        • jiipee says:

          I agree – the annual runrate may have been up to 2000 million. And that was something they needed to cut.

          Maybe my wording was incorrect, 5000 actual, active devs tops. I know for a fact, that they had plenty of people on idle state and used certain subcontractors to do absolutely nothing. And had teams around the world to do the same job all over again. A lot of the devs thrown to Accenture were excess baggage and that should have been done in any case. There were btw a lot of external resources working on Meego as well.

          The ULM case may have been another mistake by Nokia. Some anonymous Nokians have said that ULM was given a job they could not fullfill. At the same time Nokia re-recruited Linux/Qt devs in Finland back after firing them.

          My main point is that with few thousand devs, who would cost a lot less than half a billion a year, Nokia would have secured plan B, put pressure on MS, possibly sell the whole operation and ensured that they can work on future disruptions. You have said yourself that you are no fan of corporations,but interesting tech. Maybe my understanding is too limited, but how on earth can Nokia innovate new product categories, if they are stuck to WP only. Nokia wont be launching interesting things like Google glasses with WP and Metro UI. They first need to get an idea, get MS to support on OS side, hope that MS does not copy the idea… I want something more from Nokia than just gradual improvements on their cameras or the plastic around the hw components. I doubt that will happen with S30, S40 or WP.

  23. zxz says:

    q4 is the xmas season. 4.4 million is a “great result” , wait for the next lumia from nokia

  24. incognito says:

    Last quarter was saved by Asha, this quarter saved by NSN, they’re running out of things to sacrifice on the altar of the failed WP strategy. I pity those who think these are good results.

    Asha has an expiration date, nowdays low-cost Androids are not the likes from 2010 – they are actually quite capable for the price and the latest batches can easily overtake the Asha’s upper hand in that segment. Not to mention other side-players beside Android. I do hope Nokia has some really, really good innovations planned for the Asha line to be able to keep its pace in 2013, beyond that – it’s pretty obvious that featurephones and ‘smart’ featurephones are a dying breed and only a fool could count on Asha sustaining the company the size of Nokia.

    As for NSN, I’m perplexed by their sudden strong success considering the history of that branch and the fact that of all the restructuring and downsizing the NSN was the least affected. How long will this last, I have no idea, but for Nokia’s sake let’s hope NSN will not drop back to the loss-making department. The recipe is simple (worked so far) – keep Elop away from NSN, the fool doesn’t even understand mobile devices let alone mobile networks.

    All in all, not much to write home about. I never thought I’d say that, but I think it’s time for Nokia to sell its smartphone department completely, if they can find somebody crazy enough to buy it, and focus on some other things – if they continue wasting money from healthy departments on trying to resuscitate the department which performed a ceremonious suicide under the wise leadership of that incompetent buffoon, they’ll go under as a whole. Sadly, I don’t think that even strong strategy shift at this point can save that department. It’s dead, Jim.

    • Noki says:

      As usual great review. +++++

    • dss says:

      ya.. they are done. They either need to downsize drastically, or they just sell the thing and get it over with.

      This is agony..

      • Noki says:

        The interesting bit really is NSN. I’m very surprised about that, specially taking into account that not much changed in that area and competition is fierce, and turning a loss profit tank into a revenue making one is something that as been puzzling me. Will it be able to keep it up???? that is the 1 billion dollar question…

        • Marc Aurel says:

          4G networks (LTE etc.). The Chinese do not yet have those working very well, and apparently NSN has at least as good tech as Ericsson (some say better). How long that will last depends largely on how quickly the Chinese will catch up.

      • incognito says:

        Frankly, I don’t see how can they downsize any further or more rapidly than they are doing now – they’ve already started cutting into the meat. They’ve practically removed all of R&D, ffs, how do they plan to have any future without that is beyond me. It’s time to cut-off some limbs, the body/core is already as slim as possible.

    • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

      Asha does have an expiration date but what was the alternative?

      Starting to ship Meltemi phones in Q4 2012 or perhaps only in late 2013. No real application support for Meltemi and making it Android compatible would render it effectively into a low end Android phone competing with other Android phones. Without access to Google Play that is.

      A path to destruction.

      • Noki says:

        so according to your “logic” (logic is a nice word to use wen ever you spew out anything) having Nothing is better than having something??????

        PLus most of with you say above is your standard thread of LIES “No real application support” and made up pseudo facts ” perhaps only in late 2013″…


        P.S. please do not bother to answer its really annoying to read BS lies, and I say LIES because you are a LIAR as you have fluently proved.

        • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

          I guess you were supposed to be the one not to reply to me. At least you said that you are not going to reply to me. So, this is your idea of honesty and keeping promises?

          You are really acting like an adult!

          Asha is not nothing. Nokia is selling lots of Asha phones. Selling Meltemi instead of Ashe would have forced Nokia to sell no Asha phones while Meltemi was still developed.

          Unfortunately Android is already hitting the price point Meltemi was targeting. Meltemi was just too little too late.


          • Noki says:

            Yeah but I figured some one had to expose you for what you are. Or else some one might think you are something else than a Dishonest Liar. People might think you actually are not making stuff as you go and spreading FUD based NOTHING.

            You know like the one you just spread up there.

            • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

              I see.

              So you were not able to keep your promise because you have to praise the Truth for people?

            • Jiipee says:

              You keep on falling into that trap innovated by Spede ;)


              • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

                For him, there is an easy way out of that trap.

                Steve Jobs used to change his mind and that’s great. It’s stupid to hold on with the same opinion if the world changes.


          • Marc Aurel says:

            Asha Touch and Meltemi were not intended at the same market. Meltemi would have started where Asha Touch ended (around the Asha 311 price point) and extended up to Lumia 610 ($200] price point. But I agree that Meltemi was severely compromised by the strategy change in 2011, which stripped a large part of its potential app support by effectively deprecating Qt.

            • Pasanen oli hieno mies says:

              That is extremely strange.

              How was Meltemi supposed to compete with low end Android phones? Android is starting to compete with mid range Asha phones and Meltemi was supposed to cost much more?

              Let’s suppose meltemi shipped in Q4 2012 and they started to ship several models in volumes by Q2 2013.

              Why would anyone buy anyone buy a Meltemi phone in Q2 2013 when you could pick up some really nice Android phone for less than the price of an Asha 311?

              Meltemi was just too late.

    • Mike says:

      Great summary. I agree with you, best thing right now is to sell the smartphone department and focus elsewhere. That way they can still save the Nokia brand.

      • dss says:

        Microsoft should make a move.. just shift some cash to the Chinese, they buy it instead of them (too obvious, EU not happy), and they gradually sell it back to MS, and concentrate on making Windows Phones exclusively in the meantime.

        Done deal hah

        • Mike says:

          Well, only for the smartphone division! Nokia should keep everything else.

          • Noki says:

            Yeap apart from the Elop driven lumia/simbian fiasco the rests doing ok and we know he only focused on “making plan A work” soooo…the rest was out of his radar..

            • incognito says:

              The scary thing is – with these results, those healthier departments might get within his viewing scope and he might decide to implement some of his brilliant strategies to make them better :(

            • Mike says:

              Yeah! “Plan A” has failed miserably. Nokia should sell the smartphone division without the Nokia name. Keep all the rest under the Nokia brand. Of course, let Elop and his gang move with the smartphone division to the new owner.

              Then Nokia can slowly start over. Networks are profitable again. Focus on R&D and the next big thing.

    • nn says:

      They say they want to cut at least about 1 billion euro in NSN expenses at the end of 2013, relative to the end of 2011. So I guess not the same plunge like with smartphones, but still not insignificant number.

  25. says:

    good results so far,
    especially considering the lack of lumia supply and worldwide market availability.

    nokia is re-growing and can only get stronger each quarter as more new devices are released.

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