Nokia Symbian & Meego Support Officially Over

| January 2, 2014 | 267 Replies

Symbian 808

 

Even though it’s almost been 3 years since the burning platform memo, and the end of Symbian device productions as flagships for Nokia; we still get comments and requests about popular Symbian devices like the N8 and of course the ever popular N9. Unfortunately that era has truly ended now, as the Symbian Signed Team, responsible for managing the Nokia store, and submitting and updating its content announced today that they’re officially “closed”.

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This means that we shouldn’t expect to see any new apps available in the store (although you can find them online still, if the community is up to it), and you quite probably won’t see any updates at all; regardless of the promised support till 2016.

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Category: Nokia, Symbian

About the Author ()

Hey, my name's Ali- Currently a fifth (and final) year Dental Student from Chicago; studying in Jordan. I love all sorts of gadgets almost as much as I love my cookies! Be sure to follow my Twitter handle @AliQudsi and Subcribe to my Youtube for the latest videos - no pressure. Thanks.
  • Imarius

    i will always remember symbian and meego,
    so many features and so far ahead of their time.

    and whats more i will remember the phones that use them,
    taking great pictures on my n95 and n8 :).

    using offline maps to help me when i was lost in a new city,
    when friend with other smartphone where let down.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qpDFXPAyXA

  • Jakiro

    PLease Built RAW FILE support for Dear NOkia 808

    • dss

      Its not going to happen.

      • b4b4,4l1

        If only there are some hardcore Symbian fans who have the capabilities to do so. If only.

        • Janne

          It is possible 808 can’t support RAW if the JPG compression is hardwired into the extra chip. I believe Damian said the chip can’t be upgraded conventionally at least.

          • b4b4.4l1

            Well, even without RAW support, it’s not really a big deal. Nokia 808 is already way ahead the competition.

  • Blaž

    Bye,bye Symbian :(, you served me well. Loved Symbian Belle more than now WP8. You will be missed.

  • b4b4,4l1

    I will only need Opera Mini and Whatsapp on my recently bought 2nd hand Nokia 808 as that’s what I’ve been using for 5 years on my Nokia 5530. And I believe some devs will provide alternative links to download their apps. I don’t care about other apps and games.

    • MdN

      Same here, as far as internet is concerned (apps that could expire due to access point changes) I only need Opera Mini and CuteTube (developer already made it upgradeable independent of Nokia Store). UC Browser gets regular updates too outside the Store. Other apps are I use are for functionality or camera, they work just fine as they are, and I have them all backed up. Actually I want another N8 as a back up too.

      • b4b4,4l1

        Yeah, UC Browser ftw, chinese devs never leave symbian, although it’s always the last to be updated, but that’s better than nothing. Opera has stopped updating Opera Mini for Symbian, but it’s still usable.

        • MdN

          There’s a saying that Opera never stops supporting phones with Mini on it (someone correct me if I’m wrong). A few months ago I took my old E51 and updated Opera Mini on it, works normally. And that’s a 2007 phone. ;-)

          • b4b4,4l1

            I casually check m.opera.com to see if there’s an update available or not, but I found nothing during last year. Latest version I have here is 7.1.32444.

            • MdN

              Mine is 7.1.32448, got it from the Store when I got my phone last March. No updates since.

    • fabricio

      use eight v2.3 app, i amazing for symbian…

  • Cristian

    i am not buying another Nokia device ever…. okay i lied maybe the 1020 but seriously Raw file support would be nice on my 808. One last update wouldn’t hurt ..

    • xavier

      Fellow 808 user here.I am using now as primary phone a blackberry os10 device and it’s a great system: qnx rt microkernel, real multitasking, file explorer, usb host mode, hdmi out and miracast, Qt based GUI by the Swedish TAT design group (swipe based and very fluid and smooth), able to run android jellybean apks in case you want top sideload any android app missing in the BlackBerry World store (eg. Official instagram)…. To be honest I haven’t tried extensively WP8 but don’t feel compelled to, having windows 8.1 on my desktop is enough! :)

  • Banderpop

    It’s silly to want to make money from app purchases anyway. What a terrible idea that was. Much better to close the Store completely and pass on all troublesome money making duties to Microsoft right now. Long-time loyal developers and users won’t mind, I mean, it’s 2016 already isn’t it? /s

    • Zipa

      What makes you think that the Symbian AppStore is generating profit? I’m pretty sure that it does not, not even close. The infra costs for something like that are ridiculously high, and when you add the costs of the administrative staff to that you have an almost certainly guaranteed money pit in the makings.

      • Banderpop

        You didn’t notice that I didn’t say profit in my post then?

        I’m sure it’s not making a profit now, since most app developers had no choice but to jump ship (or ditched plans to join) after Symbian and Meego were end-of-lined back in Feb. 2011. It’s just a shame (or rather a disaster) that Elop was so keen to jump onto an ecosystem where all app revenue goes to Microsoft and not Nokia, and then ended up propping up Windows Phone almost on their own anyway, meaning practically no benefits from the ecosystem other than being able to make their own employees redundant (and see them re-hired by their competitors). The potential for growth and flexibility was never going to match that of Apple and Google in this scenario.

        • Random Random

          It’s very unlikely that the growth potential of Ovi Store was never as big as it was with Apple’s App Store or with Google Play.

          Let’s face it. The low end customers are just not using that much money for applications and that’s what Nokia had.

          • Banderpop

            Ovi Store fails go back to the mess that was N-Gage 2. The potential to stay ahead of Apple back then was huge, and the store’s features were actually pretty amazing (demos and rentals for everything for a start, even achievements). But during the wait for N-Gage 2′s launch, Nokia decided that graphics acceleration wasn’t needed, right when not only was it clear games looked a lot better with it, but Apple were demonstrating that good graphics hardware was an important part of a responsive phone and web interface too.

            Between that set back and the mess that was their S60v5 phones, Nokia set themselves back by about 3 years. It’s remarkable just how much momentum Symbian^3 had in those four short months after the N8′s release before it was given up on. A hint of what might have been. Alas elaborate apps usually need a lot longer than that to be made, and developers can’t afford to gamble months or years of effort on burning platforms, or for that matter, anything else Nokia would be the major player of, given their reputation for starting the fire themselves.

            • Random Random

              Yes.

              Nokia definitely failed to deliver with the N-Gage.

              However what is that momentum you are talking about with the N8?

              When Apple launched App Store, they received 10 000 apps in the first four months. We never saw that happening with the N8. It’s quite unlikely that the amount of new applications launched during those 4 months would be even four digit.

              If Ovi Store was falling back already in 2010 just after the launch of N8, how was it supposed to have momentum strong enough for competing with iOS and Android?

              WP didn’t have that momentum and matching the momentum of WP wouldn’t have been enough.

              • Noki

                “The App Store opened on July 10, 2008, via an update to iTunes. On July 11, the iPhone 3G was launched and came pre-loaded with iOS 2.0.1 with App Store support”

                wikipedia

                Now was there a device runing the same OS built before, that could run apps????……

                “The first generation iPod Touch was launched on September 5, 2007″

                wikipedia

                that’s were the initial apps came from so it took a bit more than 4 months… more like 14 months….

                • Janne

                  Noki:

                  Ahem. The first generation iPod Touch definitely couldn’t run third-party apps in September, 2007 – as couldn’t the first iPhone released earlier that year. All this came later in an update.

                  I should know, I had one of those iPod Touches from the start.

                  You are probably confusing iPod Touch with the games regular iPod offered at one point, which have nothing to do with iPod Touch, or iOS/iPhone OS, and iPod Touch definitely never was able to run them.

                • Random Random

                  I’ll help you with your ignorance Noki.

                  The first generation iPod was not able to run apps. The developers started to ship apps when the App Store was launched.

                  Of course the unfinished development environment was available for the developers before the launch. Just like Qt was available for the developers before the launch.

                  It was 4 months.

                  Now I have educated you. Just like Janne did.

                • noki

                  I stand corrected my bad.

              • Banderpop

                “However what is that momentum you are talking about with the N8?”

                I mean how developers like Electronic Arts, Gameloft, Fish Labs and Rovio all had games ready and making use of graphics acceleration for Symbian^3, whereas they had all skipped S60v5 (apart from making some hopeless java-like games, and some Gameloft 3D titles that only worked on the Omnia HD or Satio). But then they stopped again, as though no new game development was started after Feb. 2011, surprise surprise.

                I’m not talking about the numbers. I don’t know them, and across all formats, most apps are rubbish and better served by websites. I mean there was a huge and long awaited jump in quality from some big name developers that had finally invested in the Ovi Store just before its fate was sealed.

                • Random Random

                  I see.

                  Yes, it’s true that Symbian had some big developers launching applications for it. However the problem is that too many applications were still missing and the availability of applications still wasn’t that good.

                  At the time it made sense for the big players to try out even the Symbian platform. Once the graphics and the design are ready, porting isn’t that big job compared to designing a new game.

                  For the small studios launching a game for the Symbian platform made less sense unless they wanted to take some risks. Some small developers were willing to take the risk, but obviously not too many compared to even the launch of App Store.

                  The installed base of Symbian 3 devices was just 5 million in the end of 2010 and that’s just a fraction of what iOS and Android had.

                  With that low installed base it made sense for the developers to create applications for some other platform with more users.

                  One result of the very low installed base were the high prices Ovi Store had compared to the App Store. A game on iOS costing 89 cents had a price of over three times that much on the Ovi Store.

                  High prices together with the small installed base made it even more risky to launch applications for the platform.

                  To illustrate how small the installed base of Symbian 3 was, Apple had installed base of almost 20 times what Nokia had for iOS.

                  Another problem for Nokia was that Symbian 3 was not catching up but losing to iOS and Android.

                  That’s why N8 and Symbian 3 really didn’t have any significant momentum.

                  • Banderpop

                    The number of Symbian^3 devices, prior to three months before the end of 2010, was zero (excluding review units and suchlike). 5 million seems good going for just a single, expensive new device that IIRC took ages to roll out to all intended markets. The cheaper, more mass market units like the C7 and C6 wouldn’t have been included, and were immediately Osbourned anyway.

                    Why are high prices for apps a risk? Are there really developers who wouldn’t want to charge more? They set the prices after all, not Nokia.

                    Beating Apple was a tall order when Nokia had taken so long to put GPUs back in their phones. But I feel halting the loss of marketshare and remaining in the top three was still possible without turning to an incomplete American OS out of their control. And, all the risks you state were ones Nokia and developers had to overcome with Windows Phone anyway, against even greater odds.

                    • Random Random

                      Yes, it was zero and that’s was a problem.

                      Five million would have been a nice number for the market leader in 2009 but in 2010 it was only a fraction what much more expensive iPhone was selling at the same time.

                      The problem really was Symbian selling less than iOS or Android. That resulted with less developer interest and less applications. What would have changed that, really?

                      Maybe Nokia could have sold more Symbian 3 phones in Q1 2011 but Android was also ramping up and attracting the developers who were looking for a platform to develop for.

                      The high prices on the applications result with two things. Making the platform less interesting for the customers and making the customers to use less money for software. That’s what happened on iOS and there is no reason to believe it wouldn’t have been the case on Symbian.

                      Now why did the developers have that high prices? That usually happens with a niche platform. The installed base is just too small for getting enough sales with a very low price. Apple had about 20 times bigger installed base and Nokia was not really catching up.

                      You mention the market share.

                      How was Nokia supposed to stop the loss of market share in 2011 with the Symbian platform? They lost five point of market share in Q4 2010 and that’s when Symbian 3 was launched. Manufacturers like Apple and Samsung gain market share with the launch of a new products and software versions.

                      If Symbian 3 was not going to change the loss of market share, what would have been able to do that?

                      Of course the risk took place with WP but in that case Nokia no longer had to pay for the development costs or pay license fees for several years. Also, with WP it was easier to get applications because Microsoft was paying for the developers to develop for the platform. Nokia didn’t have the money to do that.

  • burning nkia jumper

    Well, so Nokia is continuing suicide as usual. The MeeGo Linux has incarnated into the Sailfish Linux, sometimes even called MeeGo 2.0.

    Even when Symbian users and developers were abandoned still they are power which is flowing away either to Android or iPhone or MeeGo Sailfish Linux.

    Whatever, developers are active in Sailfish as it allows to utilise most of, if not all, important projects from Symbian and MeeGo. This is funny and tragic how Nokia has left most promising platform which is Linux MeeGo/Sailfish.

    The Sailfish have lots of software, lots of enthusiasts, and the most important growing market and ecosystem. It generates sale and incomes, and it is one of the 3 mobile systems with the biggest number of unique software.

    And meanwhile WP is generating next friction of 1%-1,5% of nothing multiplied by the disappointment of number of Nokia’s customers – what traditionally is celebrated as Nokia howling success, as a pathetic effect of this multiplication.

    Whatever. Great is that at last the MeeGo Sailfish mobile device anyone can buy normally and GLOBALLY via the jolla.com site or via operator locally, unlike comedy of restricted selling of the Nokia N9.

    I remember how customers were begging without any effects for a Nokia N9. Well, empires folls down due to stupidity, sooner or later. Sad and pathetic, like orchestra playing at Titanic.

    • Random Random

      You remember “how customers were begging without any effects for a Nokia N9″?

      This is something you may remember but is probably just an illusion.

      That probably never happened.

      • MdN

        One shop over here had one N9, it was shrink-wrapped and never unwrapped in case they had to return it to the importer. Which they did in the end, as no one would pay 750 Euro for it. They are just as careful with higher-end Lumias now although 520 does sell.

      • BellGo

        Not that I expect you to actually acknowledge reality, but it was announced as a dead platform before release, was released with a ridiculously high price in very few markets and received little to no advertising.

        But again, feel free to ignore all that and reply with something nonsensical as you always do.

        • Random Random

          What are you talking about?

          The claim was that the customers begged for N9 and now you are talking about how it was a dead platform at the release?

          I don’t think the people begged for it. There is no proof about that happening. There may have been a small group of people doing that but it’s just irrelevant for the big picture.

          Besides, it’s usually you who wants to keep making random comments about MeeGo instead of talking it through in one conversation.

          That’s dishonest.

          • BellGo

            You meant literally people begging for a N9 instead of potential customer interest? My mistake.

            Still no idea what you are referring to at the end there.

            • Random Random

              Well.

              How can you know there were potential customer interest for N9? In large scale.

              How can you really know that?

              Or are you guessing.

              It would be really good to know where does that idea come from?

              • BellGo

                Maybe read my message again to see what I said? MeeGo and N9 was never given a chance.

                • Random Random

                  Are you saying there was no proof of people demanding it?

                  I asked where is the proof of people demanding, begging or wanting to have N9 phones?

                  I wasn’t talking about why there wasn’t demand for it.

                  I asked how someone can know there was begging or demand for it since the comment I was replying to claimed that there was begging or demand for N9.

                  So, what are you saying?

                  • BellGo

                    “I wasn’t talking about why there wasn’t demand for it.”

                    And I thought you were at least implying that the lack of demand for N9 is proof for lack of demand for MeeGo, which it isn’t as the N9 was never given a chance.

                    If not, then I misunderstood as I previously said, and there is nothing to discuss.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      Some people claim there was demand for it but Nokia refused to sell those. I haven’t seen any proof of that happening.

                      Then again.

                      I haven’t seen any proof suggesting that there would have been any more demand for MeeGo than there was for WP. Even if it was not killed.

                    • BellGo

                      There certainly would have been more demand. The question is how much more.

                    • Random Random

                      It’s not enough if there would have been more demand.

                      There should have been much more demand than there was for WP.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      My simple answer is following: those who claim there were no customers begging Nokia to sell N9 (especially in restricted for N9 markets) are laying.

                      don’t lie.

                      See even posts at MNB from that time, or many other forums with Nokia fans.
                      eg. Nokia N9 has win in UK award for the best mobile for consumers, and also after this the yellow pencil award for N9 design. Also Nokia N9 has beaten in ranking both Lumias available that time only a bit later.
                      Note that in UK selling Nokia N9 was forbidden by Nokia, it was restricted market – so how and why customers have loved N9 so much? So much that even after declared death of MeeGo and after a time next N9 incarnation (Jolla) and next MeeGo incarnation have gathered orders from 175 countries?

                      I think all who repeat lies about N9 and lack of demand has forgotten that companies like the Nokia or the Apple are for satisfying customers, but not for propaganda or internet PR. This stupidity has lead Nokia to selling the whole R&D department for nothing.

                      And I haven’t heard anybody worried for Lumia future – who cares? But everywhere you can find visible support for Jolla and Sailfish, so exactly for MeeGo and better version of N9.

                      And if Nokia would take any Lumia hardware as it is, and put into ether MeeGo Harmattan or Sailfish – it would be sold in preorders in the same way as Jolla.

                      I think they don’t do this only because of stupidity or political correctness or monopolistic agreements with one of big partners All-We-Know-Who.

                      Of course there were customers who didn’t like N9 and have sold it quickly, but note: Nokia N9 STILL is available at price from it’s launch. And that shows there is still a demand for it. Even after this time. But first Lumias you can by at 25% of it’s launch price.

                      Weather you admit this or not: Nokia can’t feed (earn for) R&D department with all Lumias combined together AND Jolla can develop and sell de facto the Nokia N9 successor, however de jure it is entirely different product.
                      (I hope nobody will try to convince anybody that R&D dpt must be sold because Lumias generates to much money?)

                      Still Nokia ought to cut off expensive and not effective experiments with WP, update MeeGo Harmattan and Meltemi to Sailfish in current stage, then Nokia will have products competitive for Android and iPhone.

                      WP is FUBAR from the previous century IMHO. It will be artificially kept alive as it is needed for PRISM and such a things, so very big money will not let it go to museum, but nothing more will happen. Just the end of life cycle of product also works for WP in the same way as for any other product.

                      Finally: I don’t care if you want to stay blind worshippers of WP or antyMeeGo allays – this is only paid PR problem, but the World goes foreward with MeeGo Sailfish Linux.

                      And I don’t expect you are able to admit this. This can be beyond what you are allowed to admit, I understand it and I can live with this. I will not cry also ;D

                    • Random Random

                      What makes you think that there was more than a small group of people interested in about MeeGo?

                      As far as we know, it might have been just a relatively small group of people making lots of noise about the product.

                      For example 10 000 people can fill the internet sites with praising and good reviews if the product is something they have always dreamed about. However that doesn’t prove that there would have been large scale interest on the product. It just proves that some people wanted to praise the product.

                      Also, tech sites and comments are a very bad way of forecasting the success or a failure of a certain product. For example iPhone 5 was very disliked product in the techs sites and on the comments but it sold very well.

                      What makes you so sure about the tech sites and comments correctly predicting the success of N9 if it was sold as a primary product?

                      There are some electronic products still available years after the end of the production but that doesn’t prove that they would be in high demand. Why would the current low availability and apparently a small group of people still interested of N9 prove something like that? The group can’t be large because the prices aren’t going up and the supply isn’t running out.

                      The talk about PRISM. As far as we know, Nokia sold Symbian in US and was going to sell MeeGo in US. And all the phones sold in US are supposed to be wide open for PRISM. Why would US allow any OS sold there if it was not accessible from PRISM?

                      Well.

                      To wrap it up you say that MeeGo would have succeeded because it was very liked in tech sites and in comments. How would something like that prove the actual product would be successful enough?

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      The replay for all you questions dear RR is Jolla company. And their smartphone with Sailfish. That makes me to think that N9 successor is needed and demanded, etc.etc. And from Jolla buy common customers from 175 countries, not only tech-sites-people. All this makes me to think that MeeGo/Sailfish has that spark which makes a product sexy and demanded. Note: you compare Jolla with Nokia, why? Because both organisations have similar figures? No! Only because Jolla has shown what opportunities with MeeGo/Sailfish Nokia has abandoned and what money are in MeeGo/Sailfish.

                    • Random Random

                      If Jolla is the answer, Nokia never was able to know that because Jolla took place only after MeeGo was long gone.

                      Then again Jolla has not announced any major unit sales.

                      We still lack any proof of genuine demand for the product. This time it’s once again mostly talk on the tech sites and on the comments.

                    • Noki

                      @burning nkia jumper

                      dont waste yout time with this one, it took him days off hamering to admit that the N9 sold probably arround 2M terminals….

                      before it was only 200.000 3000.000 would depend on his mood… its pointless…

                    • Janne

                      burning nkia jumper:

                      eg. Nokia N9 has win in UK award for the best mobile for consumers, and also after this the yellow pencil award for N9 design. Also Nokia N9 has beaten in ranking both Lumias available that time only a bit later.

                      Then again, Nokia Lumias have won tons more awards and review recognition.

                      Nokia N9 STILL is available at price from it’s launch. And that shows there is still a demand for it. Even after this time. But first Lumias you can by at 25% of it’s launch price.

                      A question of supply and demand, it is easy to acquire Lumias – even newer, better, cheaper Lumias, so old ones have less value. N9 was a one-off and more rare. In Finland where N9 was less rare, you can buy one used for 100 euro, which is 25% of it’s launch price.

                      Nokia N9 would now be less in demand had it too been a part of a family of devices like Lumia. Ironically, I think the release of Jolla will further depreciate the N9, because Jolla is a newer model catering some of the same market.

                      Weather you admit this or not: Nokia can’t feed (earn for) R&D department with all Lumias combined together AND Jolla can develop and sell de facto the Nokia N9 successor, however de jure it is entirely different product.

                      Nokia’s R&D expenses were on a completely different planet than those of Jolla’s due to size and also because Nokia had become convoluted during the early 2000s. Symbian was the most manned OS project in the world, probably more people than Apples, Microsofts and Googles OS people combined, worked on Symbian because it was a mess. Also, Jolla raised risk capital to pay for the development – Jolla didn’t and definitely haven’t earned money to pay for their R&D yet. We all hope they will, some day, of course become a money-making enterprise. All the best to Jolla.

                      The Sailfish have lots of software, lots of enthusiasts, and the most important growing market and ecosystem. It generates sale and incomes, and it is one of the 3 mobile systems with the biggest number of unique software.

                      This is a really interesting comment to make, because I can’t support it through my Jolla and N9 Sailfish experiences at all. I have both here, plus a host of other mobile devices from all the major platforms, and I sure as heck can’t see how the quote could in any way be connected to any kind of reality anywhere in the universe.

                      And meanwhile WP is generating next friction of 1%-1,5% of nothing multiplied by the disappointment of number of Nokia’s customers – what traditionally is celebrated as Nokia howling success, as a pathetic effect of this multiplication.

                      Sure, WP’s growth was not enough for Nokia in their BoD’s view. Then again, in the real world, Windows Phone is continuing its mediocre progress and is far more likely the be the “third ecosystem” in the longer run, than Sailfish, Ubuntu, Tizen or Firefox. But the great thing, of course, is time will tell. If one of the latter four can actually catch up to WP and go past it, it will be easy to tell.

                      I remember how customers were begging without any effects for a Nokia N9. Well, empires folls down due to stupidity, sooner or later. Sad and pathetic, like orchestra playing at Titanic.

                      Nokia certainly was stupid. To ignore Maemo in 2005 and try to coax Series 60 Symbian into a modern touch operating system. Fool’s errand. Obviously all the false starts and lack of focus in 2010 and beyond, of course, were added stupidities. The amount of different prongs, incompatible forks of OS Nokia has tried over the last five years must amount to 6 or 7 (and dozens if we cound all their earlier internal Symbian forks). In the meanwhile, Apple had *1* mobile operating system. Google had *1* mobile operating system. Nokia had, basically, over half a dozen they were developing or developing for – mostly killed before or shortly after release of course.

                    • Random Random

                      Noki the astroturfer.

                      There is no proof about N9 selling 2 million units. You keep claiming that but in reality the unit sales were never released and that two million is based on speculation and not facts.

                    • Random Random

                      Very good comments from Janne.

                      It’s obvious that burning nkia jumper seems to be using marketing material and web site comments as a proof of Nokia’s might have been success.

                    • GordonH

                      And wheres the proof that going WP was more successful then if Nokia had gone Meego?

                    • Random Random

                      If there is no proof either way, it’s better to go with the cheapest option.

                      That was WP.

                    • GordonH

                      Going with WP was very cheap … so cheap that Nokia got sold for peanuts to MS.

    • Janne

      Sailfish certainly continues the MeeGo story, but it has absolutely nothing… NOTHING to do with Symbian.

      So no, Sailfish is not continuing any “important projects from Symbian”.

      And that’s a good thing.

      You do realize Nokia’s Symbian religion basically killed Maemo and gravely hampered MeeGo. Most MeeGo engineers I know hate Symbian.

      • MdN

        I’m sure they hated having a job too.

        • Janne

          I’m sure they would have loved a better appreciated job even more. One that could have made Nokia competitive with modern, high-end touch smartphones.

          Perhaps already in 2005.

          I’m not saying those guys love WP. I’m just saying many hate Symbian. For cause. Who could blame them either. They had the keys to Nokia’s future and were summarily ignored.

          So, let’s not romantically group Symbian and MeeGo together as some glorious brotherly pair. They were no such thing. Symbian anchored Nokia to a past from which Maemo – then MeeGo – tried to liberate Nokia from.

          Anyway, this discussion is beginning to sound like another rehash I don’t care to repeat.

          It is what it is.

    • tom

      “The Sailfish have lots of software…..It generates sale and incomes, and it is one of the 3 mobile systems with the biggest number of unique software. ”

      ha ha ha ha ha

      • burning nkia jumper

        Yes indeed, even when you are unaware of this.

  • DannyBoy

    nokia is not a name to trust anymore! nokia 808 was released in the summer of 2012 and after 18 months guess what? no support anymore! bye nokia, welcome sony

    • MdN

      Yep. They stopped selling Symbian last year.

    • Dave

      Are you talking about the same Sony who don’t have a single decent camera phone in their range, whos product support is legendarily bad (like most Android vendors really).

  • http://julesbgoesblog.blogspot.com/ Jules

    :( , u wer good in Nokia N8, BYE Symbian

  • swain

    Sooner or later it was definitely going to happen. But the worst thing is Nokia ended up being a traitor. It cheated it’s customers by giving false assurance of Symbian support till 2016. They must ask Mr Elop to announce this news as well. He must have some wonderful idea to logically prove it as beneficial to Nokia as a phone maker. Or at least Janne need something to sing.

    • Janne

      Me? Elop failed, Nokia’s phone business lost its independence and Nokia broke a promise. Sure. There’s a song.

      Oh and Symbian religion killed Maemo in 2005.

      • jiipee

        Symbian religion, to mgmt incompentence, cost control approach and too nerdy OSSO folks.

        • Janne

          I can agree with all of those of course.

        • swain

          I too agree with you on the reasons mentioned. But they were not the only reasons. IMO the major factor was fragmentation and poor hardware selection.
          After 2009, except camera, what was best about Nokia’s hardware ?
          Symbian was never so lucky to get the kind of hardware treatment that Lumia got. The best of Symbian was running on last century’s hardware.
          There was huge pressure from iPhone and increasing pressure from Android. Then there was the internal competition between MeeGo and Symbian to make it worst.

          • Noki

            big +1

            • Janne

              You guys are really delusional if you think simply better hardware would have made Series 60 Symbian a modern smartphone experience.

              It is the cheap hardware that allowed Nokia to keep making some money out of Symbian for as long as they were able to. It was a race to the bottom, because low-end was the only place where they could sell the Symbian touch experience.

              Nokia lacked software that they could have charged high-end prices for. Both application software (the ecosystem) and modern, shippable operating system software. They had Maemo, but they ignored it so long and then took the stupid turn to waste even more time with Intel for MeeGo, that it wasn’t an answer.

              • noki

                You sound more and more like your RR friend there….nice….

                • Random Random

                  Anyone talking about facts probably sounds like me since I prefer facts.

                  • Noki

                    if it comes out of your mouth it’s fact, if any one else says it regardless how how many proofs they present its unproven …. Gotcha…

                    Demented you are demented, seek help!!!!

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      Apparently you dislike the facts.

                    • GordonH

                      Well RR thinks repeating lies means it’s going to be a fact.

                • Janne

                  noki:

                  So you would rather attack my style or RR’s character, than the arguments I posted?

                  Please stick to the topic, not the people – I guarantee better exchange of information follows.

                  What part of my message was wrong in your opinion and why?

                  • Random Random

                    He can’t talk about the actual topic.

                    That’s because he just doesn’t have enough knowledge about this.

              • GordonH

                “You guys are really delusional if you think simply better hardware would have made Series 60 Symbian a modern smartphone experience.”

                That was a very stupid thing to say.

                • Janne

                  One of these days, GordonH, why don’t you surprise us all and actually offer some arguments instead of insults! You can even keep the insults, but combine them with some argumentation. Maybe?

                  I don’t think it was a stupid argument from me, though. Better hardware could certainly have helped with some issues (say, more memory in N97), but Symbian’s UI problems on Nokia’s software “stack” were not about hardware, but about software. There were some inherent flaws in Series 60 (still the basis for Symbian^3).

                  Putting better hardware in would not, for example, magically have made Symbian’s browser competitive with the iOS or Android browsers. I’d think any who really understands Nokia’s Symbian’s exotic development/portability as well as UI issues (and why it was very hard for it to be a modern smartphone experience) knows simply better hardware would not have made the difference.

                  • GordonH

                    Nope Janne… I remember the long arguments with you.

                    It was useless taking to someone in those days taking sides with WP and MS.
                    Now you seem to not be too pro WP and MS but it’s still in your blood. It pops up around your being defense with RR.

                    It’s a comment section not an arguments suggestion. Like I said before one 20-30 liners in the argument doesn’t show validity to an argument.

                    • Random Random

                      That’s surprising.

                      I have genuinely thought that you wouldn’t be intelligent enough to have a real conversation.

                      All you have been doing lately is to yell about how bad you feel inside. At least that’s how it seems to be.

                      However now you are talking like a real person.

                      Is that impression of bad feeling really everything you want to say about yourself?

                      I really can’t believe anyone changes his/her mind if you throw one liners at people. All it does is making people to think how bad manners Nokia fans can have.

      • swain

        Other things are too obvious at this point except “Elop failed”. I don’t think he failed. It was never felt that his actions were anyway going to help Nokia in surviving. So saying that he failed is just an excuse.

        • Random Random

          Well.

          That’s just guessing.

          There was never any actual proof about that happening.

        • Janne

          You think that, sure. I think Elop failed.

          • Marc Aurel

            Yes, he failed, although in retrospect it is difficult to see how he could have done much better after choosing WP (for which the BoD of course shares a major responsibility), badmouthing Symbian needlessly and then osborning it months before it was really necessary.

            The fact that WP development was so slow that Symbian development in 2011-2012 was actually FASTER (who would have believed) wasn’t Elop’s fault; he had clearly overestimated his former employees ability to execute, but there was little he could do about it after the WP strategy was announced. Neither was it his fault that Microsoft decided not to port WP8 to WP7 phones (with 512 MiB of RAM) even though it would have been technically possible and not overwhelmingly difficult, which caused another osborning of current Nokia phones within 18 months period.

            • Marc Aurel

              “former employer’s ability to execute”, of course.

            • Janne

              Part of Elop’s failure was February 11th PR. An integral part.

              • swain

                Now I don’t feel it as a failure. It just accelerated the killing process of Symbian. May be that was part of some plan.

                • xNokian

                  Right. Completely killing sales of a product that you get half of your revenues with nothing to replace it with is a great business plan.

                  • Random Random

                    You should know that there is no proof that the memo killed the Symbian sales.

                    At least three things happened.

                    The memo was published.

                    Symbian’s unit sales started to collapse

                    Android started to hit new very low price points.

                    Do you have any evidence of the memo resulting the collapse and not something else?

                    • xNokian

                      Arguing that it had negligible effect on sales is the same argument as circles representing rectangles.

                    • Random Random

                      I see.

                      This is something we should just believe in.

                      With this I mean the memo resulting the collapse of the unit sales. Not just adding to it.

                      What is the actual proof that the memo was the actual reason for the unit sales to collapse?

                    • xNokian

                      I have great respect for Mr. Elop but he epicly failed leading Nokia and lost D&S. Remember the picture from the 11/2/11 where symbian was expected to be transitioned to WP? That was EPIC fail. I wish somebody would draw an actual picture of Symbian fall and WP nowhere to be found.

                    • Random Random

                      I see.

                      You don’t have any proof suggesting that the memo was the reason for the collapse of the unit sales.

                      It happened at the same time, but so what? That alone proves nothing.

                    • xNokian

                      You have no proof to most of the BS you post here, why do you ask for one from me? Like you want a proof that the screen that I am typing on is white – you’ll argue it is black.
                      You’ll probably argue Elop’s failure as well but you’re not fooling anyone.

                    • Random Random

                      So, you don’t have any proof.

                      You claim it happened because of Elop but in the end you have really nothing to back up your claim.

                      You accusing me of not having good enough arguments at the same time when you refuse to even consider having any proof can be called double standards.

                      You seem to be a dishonest person.

                    • Noki

                      Hey MNB comic relief, what is the job of the CEO, what defines a good CEO????
                      The guy took great care of one area and one area only D&S specially the smartphone division under his management he produced only negative results in that area so he failed… you can say what ever but he failed at his Joob PLAIN AND SIMPLE… BY DEFINITION OF ITS JOB, you can argument he did the best under the circumstances, but that does change the fact that he FAILED geeee.

                      THERE PROVEN BY DEF OF HIS JOB ASSIGNMENT..

                    • Janne

                      The 10 billion dollar question, indeed, is the question of causality – and its direction.

                      Was the Memo and more importantly the February 11th announcement (the memo was written and leaked earlier and alone probably wouldn’t have done that much damage) the cause or the result of crashing Symbian sales?

                      Was Feb11 the cause or just a result of crashing Symbian sales?

                      It is probable the event added to Symbian’s woes, of course, but the big question is how much.

                      Was the strategy shift a result of an impending Symbian crash that was already visible in Nokia’s internal projections? Or just the cause of it as is the opposing view from outside of Nokia management?

                      It is hard to see how the BoD would have approved February 11th if a crash of some sort was not already clear and evident to them.

                      That said, I still think how February 11th was executed was a major gamble (I said here so at the time) and they lost that gamble. I think Osbourning Symbian and perhaps even N9 so soon were just unnecessary. They could have packaged the new strategy differently and I believe it would have helped their transition.

                      Must read that Jorma Ollila book proper one of these days.

                    • Janne

                      BB is one indicator. BB7 (a legacy OS like Symbian) sales in the early 2011 were still strongish, but crashed later in 2011 in a major way, even though BB made no February 11th or memo – quite the contrary tried to keep up appearances.

                    • Random Random

                      Yes Janne.

                      We don’t have any actual proof suggesting that the collapse of the unit sales happened because of the memo, but we have lots of proof about the market changing obsoleting the old platforms.

                    • GordonH

                      Yes and we now have proof that going WP was disastrous.

            • GordonH

              Mind you, Nokia was flailing before Elop took hold, but his plans weren’t for the benefit of Nokia.

              Moral of the story: never hire an ex-Microsoft director as your CEO unless you want to be asset-stripped and your key assets given to Microsoft for a pittance!

            • http://www.forfictionmobile.com/ zlutor

              just a few things he could do better (among many):
              - having a clause in the contract freeing Nokia from WP exclusivity/increasing ‘platform support payment’ automatically and dramatically if M$ does not deliver (fast enough).
              - starting developing Android phones parallel with WP models (silently but getting M$ knowing about it). HW components are anyway the same – except Nokia camera tech but Android supports C++ dev – so it would be not a big deal.

              As all normal people would do in normal cases – having safety nets here and there. But he did the opposite: always declaring ‘no plan B’…

              • Random Random

                If you didn’t already know, Nokia was developing Android phones already in 2010.

                • Janne

                  One of those over half a dozen different false OS starts Nokia made since around 2008 or so.

                  • Random Random

                    Yes it was.

                    Nokia had lots of half baked OS starts but what Jorma Ollila probably was trying to say was, that Nokia was not able to really push more than one OS at a time.

                    • Janne

                      Yep, that is probably what he meant.

                      Also, an interesting mental exercise on focus realities on the market:

                      Anyone, name one single phone manufacturer who is pushing more than one smartphone OS at a time?

                      Heck, Nokia is probably the only one if we count Asha software platform as a smartphone platform.

                      Nobody else is pushing more than one. They may have niche products like Nokia had Maemo, but nobody really is pushing more than one.

                      Nokia’s problem was, it was pushing the wrong smartphone OS for too long (Symbian), when they should have turned to pushing Maemo in 2005.

                    • Random Random

                      Some people think that if they see an OS demo and the OS has a seemingly working UI, it’s ready to ship.

                      People were commenting in summer of 2011 that Nokia refused to ship N9 while they already saw in a demo that the phone was ready.

                      That’s how much some people know about OS development.

                      It’s of course possible to have some additional operating systems, but it’s not the same thing as really pushing them.

                    • GordonH

                      I know seem to think that if WP7 was ready and shipping it meant that Nokia should dump all profits.
                      Oh some people pretend to forget that WP8 was shipped almost 2 years after N9.

            • shocked

              Neither was it his fault that Microsoft decided not to port WP8 to WP7 phones (with 512 MiB of RAM) even though it would have been technically possible and not overwhelmingly difficult, which caused another osborning of current Nokia phones within 18 months period.

              I could never wrap my head around this. How could Nokia not know that WP 7 devices couldn’t be upgraded to WP8?
              Nokia had to wait for almost 2 years before they could get competent mobile phones into the market. WHY kill Symbian off in 2011 when they could have sold Symbian Belle mobiles along side Wp mobiles till Wp 8 was ready.

              • Noki

                Nokia had to know, had it not known its could request for the annulment of the deal in court as a breach of confidence and ask for compensation…

                So nokia knew very well way before any one dreamed it…

                But hey it was Microsoft’s best interest and it was before the board puled the rug out of Elops feet..

                • Janne

                  Of course Nokia knew. They often referred to the WP roadmap as a reason for choosing it. It is clear WP8+ was the real target, WP7 was a temporary measure to get the ecosystem fight going. They got some of that done too, but still I think it was the wrong call to make. WP7 meant that for many markets the current choices were effectively in February 11th Osbouned until late 2012, early 2013… With a different transitional and PR strategy Nokia could have not Osbourned products so early.

                  Of course then there is the question could MeeGo have worked. For Nokia’s global markets, N9 would have been ready over a year before WP8 – and WP7 was not able to serve many markets as well as N9 might have been able to. Now, MeeGo had other issues of course like the cost of development, no Microsoft money and ecosystem (e.g. Windows 8) to support a longer tail in the future…

                  So many things to consider, and in the and, all speculation.

                  • Random Random

                    It was apparent that MeeGo was not going to get native applications.

                    Apparently there were also some developers refusing to even think about developing for MeeGo since if Nokia shipped Android compatibility for it, all that was needed was the Android application.

                    However the Android compatibility would have killed the native development. Apparently this is happening for Jolla.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      You are laying, and misleading. This is black PR propaganda. MeeGo have own software despite sabotaging the project by own CEO Mr Elop. And Jolla have MeeGo/Sailfish software. Doesn’t meter how many times you will repeat those or similar lies here.

                      I would like to remind you it was Microsoft who had to pay lots of money for development of Angry Birds as development for business purposes was not calculable, just a niche of 1% promoted with Microsoft money.

                    • Random Random

                      In reality very few developers seemed to be interested about it.

                  • noki

                    Suggesting windows 8 as as a good thing is imaginative. See the news coming from ces. The drop in pouco sales the rise off chromebook etc etc. Windows 8 is so far a disaster.

                    • Janne

                      Windows 8 has its own adoption issues for sure, but really, MeeGo would have had even less synergies with any mainstream consumer ecosystem outside of mobile – even if they could have created some kind of mobile ecosystem for MeeGo.

                      We are only beginning to see how Windows 8.x and Windows Phone 8.x are starting to play together and benefit each other, but certainly there are more such synergies than we could have foreseen for MeeGo.

                      Perhaps MeeGo would have survived without such synergies, but having those synergies is one benefit of WP compared to MeeGo.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      Sorry but Windows 8 is already long time at the market, and Windows is over 10 years in mobile market.

                      And I agree with Noki:
                      Suggesting windows 8 as as a good thing is imaginative. — Windows 8 is so far a disaster.

                      Unlike you said Jane, MeeGo had a synergy – there were devices with MeeGo from Lenovo, Acer, Asus in sale at the market. PadPhone was designed to be the MeeGo device, changed to Android only after burning winds and sabotaging MeeGo declarations from Elop. And after Nokia made very stupid thing and abandoned MeeGo they were not continued – thanks to the sabotage from Nokia IMHO.

                    • Random Random

                      WP8 is a new OS.

                      The core may be old, but as an OS it’s quite new.

      • dss

        That same Symbian religion killed Symbian as well..

      • swain

        FYI Maemo was never killed. It was merged with Intel’s Moblin to form MeeGO.

        If killing is concerned, you can say WP religion killed Symbian, MeeGO, Meltemi, Nokia.

        • Janne

          Of course I know that.

          Maemo wasn’t killed literally, it was simply ignored to death with no direct path forward for apps etc. N9 was Maemo 6 in name only (ironically, not even that) from a product-line point of view.

          Maemo wasn’t killed in 2010 with the MeeGo announcement either. No, it was killed in 2005 when it was destined to be ignored.

          • Janne

            And sure, WP killed all those (well, Jolla was Nokia Bridged out and got some licenses too).

            What is this, Symbian religions deeds towards Maemo are somehow lessened because WP was bad too? No, the point was, Symbian and Maemo were not some brotherly dynamic duo. One of then was suffocating the other.

            Ironically, Symbian religion and its failings also introduced Nokia to Elop and WP. Given Maemo command in 2005, likely no WP would have ever come.

  • cache

    As I wrote in removed and ignored tip, Nokia stops weather service allmost month ago, now this..

    There goes support ’til 2016. This means no more Nokia/Lumia for me. I was ready to buy Lumia this year and say bye to my 701, but with this attitude? No. Just no.

    • Random Random

      You should understand that they run out of money.

      We never saw any proof of Nokia ruining the Symbian business. Apparently it just faded away because of the other companies.

      At least there is no proof of Nokia’s managers ruining it.

      Out of money.

      That’s what happened.

      • MdN

        I wonder what happened to those Accenture people. They were the ones maintaining Symbian, not sure about the Store as it includes S40 which is owned by MS, still being sold and maintained.

        • xNokian

          Some moved on to other roles within Accenture but majority left for other opportunities or were sacked.

      • cache

        No, I should not. I bought 701 at october 2012 in Nokia store with 2 year guarantee.
        Now, after one year and three months its starting to be useless junk with 9 months of guarantee. It’s not correct behavior to a regular customer.

        • Janne

          You have every right to be upset. In reality cutting Nokia Store support so soon was a pretty crappy move. I’m quite sure keeping at least a nominal level of support until 2016 would have been feasible. Heck a year longer would have been a big enough deal too.

          • Jiipee

            Do you know, if the responsibility over old devices is shifted to MS or not?

            If it is transferred to MS, I might send a request to the Finnish Consumer Protection officials about the further support of Meego & Symbian as promised by the company reps or a rebate. Afaik, Nokia (or MS) would be required to fullfill their more or less official promise by the law or they breach the contract. The trouble is that the actual sale is through 3rd party. It would be interesting to see the decision on what is understood by a smartphone and how integrsl services such as store and some apps with latest api support are.

            • http://www.forfictionmobile.com/ zlutor

              give it a try!

            • Janne

              No idea. I’d expect it to transfer, though, because entire D&S seems to be going.

              Support for old devices was one theme mentioned by Nokia Conversations in September, they mentioned some legal responsibilities and at the time I got the idea Microsoft was bound to honor them. Then again, who knows from such PR answers what the responsible party is and how transferable responsibilities like this even are.

        • chardhs

          You should’ve known that in 2012, nokia focus is AllandOnly WP.

          don’t buy symbian. Slow, not stable.

          world has new era. Android, iOS and WP. 3 future OSes.

          dont let your mind under past time. 2014 dude…. Upgrade your momory and forget the past :(((((

      • asd

        @chache, I understand your point of view very well. Lately, during the last few years, I have learned to take Nokia’s announced plans with a grain of salt. That hasn’t prevented be from getting dissapointed though. I’m still an optimist and maybe under MS they can hold on to a plan for a while.

        MS’s Lumias might be well supported, or if the lack of WP7->WP8 upgradeability and rumoured combining of RT and WP are to be any indicators, you still might end up feeling betrayed. But hey, at least it would be by a different company this time.

        @RR, Running out of money, or being low on it, is a good point. If the store’s cut from the price fo the new apps would bring enough money to pay for Symbian Signed staff salaries they probably wouldn’t mind keeping it going. If they could have sold as many Symbian phones as they planned, it might bring.

        There are also reasons that aren’t directly related to running out of money. I’d don’t know what happened to the store in this deal, but I would presume that it too was transfered to MS. If the store really is under MS now, it doesn’t make any sense to Nokia to pay for this out of their own pocket anymore. MS wants to have as little as possible to do with these Symbian and MeeGo sides of the store. Since the transaction should take place soon it makes sense that it is done now. It might even have been one of Microsoft’s conditions for the D&S sale. Symbian and MeeGo were in a way orphaned, both parties are to blame to some degree.

        • Janne

          I think the reason may be even more banal. Nokia has a contract (my guess) with Accenture for those Symbian signing activities and wanted to cut some unnecessary-seeming monthly or yearly fee. Bad for PR.

          Yes, last five years or so certainly have been a roller-coaster of false starts and inability to see any mobile phone road through for Nokia. I guess, ironically, WP is the card they in the end played to a mature point – only to then choose to buy NSN and sell D&S away. I guess NSN is a story where Nokia didn’t cut and run too soon.

          Nokia has lacked focused leadership and thus has done these zig-zag moves that certainly have made them very indecisive. So many (six? seven?) OSs and major new, incompatible forks with new names they have worked on and abandoned in the span of a few years.

          No direction at all.

          And some say Nokia had only one OS. Nothing, nothing could be further from the truth. Last evidenced by the Android fork project.

          • Random Random

            Nokia only had one production quality OS they were pushing.

            While they had the Android project in 2012, it wouldn’t have been possible to sell Android phones because the prototypes just were not production quality.

            • GordonH

              Oh geez and WP8 was so so ready in 2012 /s

              • burning nkia jumper

                Yea, it is funny: all claims from all OSes are also claims to WP, but they never appear as claim against WP or M$ – they magically turns into WP and M$ advantages :D
                /i

      • Noki

        reminds us all how much money they lost with all he preorder L800 units from Compal that ended up not being sold? how much what it 1B..? how many years of SW development does that pay???

        • burning nkia jumper

          Would be interesting to gather all those flowers at one site… Quite interesting picture would be visible… (ohh no could that disturb in quite costly divorce?, oh no)

  • http://www.facebook.com Travis

    It’s sad to know this, but I hope developers will still continue to update their apps and make new ones for Nokia N9.

    • Janne

      You may want to look at Sailfish. That is what the future of MeeGo will hinge on. Jolla has some nice ideas.

      • Dave

        Jolla tempted me for a little while …. but I think they’ve taken the elegance and beauty of the N9 interface and massaged it with an ugly stick.

        I almost feel dirty in saying this, but I’m actually tempted to the dark side and the 1020 …. (no single Android phone has a good enough camera for me ….)

        • Janne

          You are right about Jolla loosing some of that elegance, so it is a concern if they don’t adjust it. I hope they will. On the balance, they have some nice ideas for the gestures taken forward. They have made quite speedy updates so far.

          Nothing dirty in a great Lumia. If you need or want it, you can always mainly use it as a camera. No need to tie yourself to the ecosystem forever if you don’t like it that way. :)

  • xNokian

    How ironic. Symbian signed contributed to Symbian being noncompetitive. iOS provisioning is bad but not as bad as SS was. Now it is first to announce the official end or era. Good riddance and RIP Symbian.

    • Random Random

      Well.

      What did I say about how closed Nokia really was with SS?

      Much more than iOS.

      Yes?

  • Nathan

    Thank Goodness for Warehouse:
    http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91574

    And openrepos.net…
    http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90672
    And warehouse

    And that’s just 2 of many community initiatives that have sprung-up this yr.

    • Nathan

      Wish we could have a new commenting system.
      Blows that we STILL can’t edit our own comments.

    • Janne

      Speaking of Maemo.org, the story of Maemo/MeeGo is another great example of Nokia’s lack of focus. Basically what, five, six incompatible devices where you had to make own versions for each because they run different forks of the OS.

      Think if Apple had done the same with iOS. They didn’t, they fostered a path forward for those apps.

      Now again, Sailfish is another fork on the road and MeeGo apps from N9 won’t really work as is either.

      Same story, of course, with Nokia’s multitude of incompatible Symbians.

      It is too much to ask developers to maintain dozens of forks of their project for single instances of some fractured platform family. Hence many won’t do it. Even Android, where testing against that horde is hard, has a unified delivery mechanism.

      Nokia lacked focus. Luckily I believe Jolla and Sailfish will try better… But again, those N9 apps or Sailfish apps won’t directly help each other. You need to make separate versions for both and I guess many just won’t bother.

      • Nathan

        I’m not sure how you got into such a uber digression based on that one post, but, I’ll respond in kind ;)
        It was never going to be possible to support Harmattan apps in a acceptable way, unless they devised a UX that was basically a carbon copy of Harmattan’s.

        A emulation layer of sorts may have been a option*, but I guess they chose to focus their limited resources on Android support instead of Harmatttan’s relatively tiny apps/content base.
        I would’ve loved to both, but, if I had to chose I prolly would’ve (reluctantly) chosen the former, others in the community would’ve have vehemently & passionately argued otherwise.

        *I wonder if they even brainstormed this at one point, interesting one to ask them about

        • Nathan

          correction:

          I would’ve loved to see both, but, if I had to chose I prolly would’ve (reluctantly) chosen the former, others in the community would’ve vehemently & passionately argued otherwise.

          • burning nkia jumper

            I think this is similar to what I think about this.

            Jolla has built in Android emulation. So if would want then technically could emulate both Harmattan and even Symbian – Sailfish Linux is flexible enough and on-board resources also.

            Perhaps a 3rd party will see a business in something like this? And I think this is the key – limited money. For MeeGo and Symbian projects it is easier to prepare tools for easy and quick porting of valuable projects – et voilllla: there is really superduper Sailfish SDK. And porting especially with Qt is a piece of cake, question of a few hours. And developers who want to make money in growing market have a chance to be first in relatively not crowded market. So those who were/are earning money with Symbian and want to continue a project, in relatively easy way, just can port it to Sailfish. And this process is happening now.

            Sailfish is not any continuation of Symbian, but it contains Symbian behaviour as Sailfish contributors want to make it a good system for customer. Hence change from Symbian to Sailfish is relatively easy, in most of known to me cases it was described like a change to a new car, a bit different one but many times more comfortable one. Some see advantage in possibility to influence or to contribute for OS development via MER or Jolla directly.

            ATM no other OS or community give such opportunities and perspectives.

            • Random Random

              Jolla has Android emulation, but what does that mean?

              It can run Android applications, but it doesn’t have the best distribution channel for those. Google Play. While sideloading is possible, it’s not really an option for most of the people who use mobile phones.

              That means it’s a niche device, targeted for a small group of people.

              While it has lots of opportunities, it’s also limited from the point of the view of a regular user.

              About Harmattan emulation.

              It wouldn’t really be emulation but a compatibility layer. Building something like that would require the access to the Harmattan source code and as we know, there were closed source parts so adding that layer is probably not going to happen. Also, having that layer would increase the amount of memory needed because effectively the device should have the Harmattan layers in memory if Harmattan applications were used. That’s even more overhead.

              The niche nature of this product will probably limit the amount of applications ported on the device.

              “developers who want to make money in growing market have a chance to be first in relatively not crowded market.”

              Assuming the deployment takes just few hours, somethign is going wrong since Jolla is not getting those Qt applications. The store seems to be almost empty. Now why is that if it’s profitable and deploying is easy?

              • nklst

                Sailfish have Yandex App Store for Android Apps and it is possible to install Amazon App store

                • Random Random

                  Yes, and there is just a fraction of the Android applications available in those.

                  It’s a niche device.

              • burning nkia jumper

                Dear RR, Jolla DOES HAVE the distribution channel for Android OS software and for Sailfish OS software here https://harbour.jolla.com/. It is hard to believe you don’t know that! As Jolla does things professionally they allowed all devs to submit software for free for testing how it works and to polish eventual bugs if reported. Important is that Jolla staff download and test Android software to real physical devices before a soft is allowed for download, so Sailfish and Android apps there are tested. As I know ATM payments are not active, and free soft is uploaded and available. So the channel is in betatests, working and useable.

                “The store seems to be almost empty. Now why is that if it’s profitable and deploying is easy?” – as mentioned above: payments are not active yet so devs put there only free soft, not those which they want to be payed for. Simply, there are no all ported projects yet, as they are waiting for payments to be activated. And also Android store has not started with number of soft it has now. Hope it is not beyond your imagination and understanding. And IMHO it is better to find all bugs with downloading/using free soft then have problems with pay software. Also devs have a chance to ask for what they need in the store. See: problems with the Nokia’s store, or MS store cancelled and disappeared (also licences and ability to install already bought and payied software).
                Considering all this IMHO Jolla plays much more fair, has earned respect and trust of customers and devs.

                And besides of The Harbour (harbour.jolla.com) one can download from any source, also Google or any other. Buying at Google generates money for Google and for developer – hard to believe they will resign from that money because you have negative approach to Jolla and MeeGo/Sailfish ecosystem. They just increased a number of potential customers, so potential additional incomes. And doesn’t meter weather you like it or not. Also nobody can tell me where I install downloaded software, that is only my decision.

                Emulation of Android with built in Jolla Myriard’s Alien Dalvik means that Android software run with Jolla as with native Android device, just an Android version, next one.

                All we know that one soft may not run on exactly ALL Android devices, what does not disturb to use it where possible.

                Android software may cause problems when Android developer does not follow the Android standard but introduce own code for interface elements, what in effect may not be recognised/visible/useable at Jolla’s compatibility layer. Sailfish is full Linux, Android is castrated Linux with added Dalvik, hence Myriard’s Alien Dalvik built in Jolla makes it just another Android and allow to use Android software as native.

                Anyway code free from developer’s fantasies and failed experiments runs with native speed at Jolla.

                You repeat all the time your idea that Jolla is a niche device for reasons only you know. That “niche” so far contains 175 countries – I would call it “the global niche” or a global success of the MeeGo/Sailfish.

                Sailfish is targeted in general to mobile devices just like MeeGo and “small group of people” can be counted in thousands of millions. This is question of approach and yours is negative so you used to depreciate Jolla and Sailfish by all means. But this is only your problem, in the same way as doubting if Jolla will ever launch a smartphone, will have better logistics, or the most funny and weird concept of yours: “limited from the point of the view of a regular user” etc.etc.. Has anyone ever has aimed Jolla to “unregullar user”?? That is only PR mumling, not anything about Jolla or Jolla’s smartphne or Sailfish OS.

                Harmattan emulation is possible and perhaps somebody will do it, however, considering Elop has killed the Harmattan project and burning winds, more reasonable is porting to Sailfish. Also because the Sailfish port to existing N9 devices is a question of time only I think. When a device guaranties will expire a number of users will launch the Sailfish for comfort and wider software offer. That is also a beer from Elop that Nokia has to drink.

                Anyway repeated claims “Harmattan is dead” dose not motivate to make compatibility layer, but to porting, especially when Sailfish tools are far far better now.

                • Random Random

                  Well.

                  Apparently the Jolla store is not ready yet so the developers are not going to deploy applications before that happens. What is the date the store is going to be ready? It’s unlikely the developers would start developing for the device before a date was announced.

                  Why the developers can’t ask what is needed in the Jolla store and why they even should ask?

                  Android has a real Linux core. Linux is a kernel.

                  Jolla is a niche device for the reasons mentioned here in MNB. It’s still a beta device. That alone makes it a niche or do you assume that the masses would like to use an unfinished OS? Even the browser can’t be used in landscape.

                  Do you know what it means that the Jolla phone is sold in 175 countries? How is it sold in those countries? It’s easy to set up a web page and list 175 countries the phone is shipped to but that doesn’t make it mainstream.

                  How do you know that group is millions and not less? Is that just something you claim without any facts backing up your claims? Apparently it is since we haven’t seen any proof yet.

                  How could they make Jolla compatible with Harmattan if they don’t have the access to all of Harmattan source code?

                  • Nathan

                    “How could they make Jolla compatible with Harmattan if they don’t have the access to all of Harmattan source code?”

                    Lets leave this Qn for those who know what they’re talking about shall we.

                    @burning nkia,

                    Put the Qn to the Jolla people, it’d be interesting to hear why they didn’t chose that path over Android (or both), maybe they didn’t even think about it, but I doubt that.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      I know what I’m talking about.

                      Making it fully compatible can’t be done without the actual source code for Harmattan.

                      Is this something you can’t agree with?

                    • Nathan

                      My point is there’s far more nuances which you haven’t covered, either because you can’t, or for other reasons, it’d be a insightful exercise to hear their full rationale.

                    • Random Random

                      Sure there are.

                      However that was a valid question from me. No need to forget that topic.

                      There are several reasons why making it Harmattan compatible might not be a valid idea.

                      First, the access to full source code.

                      Second, it would require work to be done and why would they focus on that while they have lots of work to be done on the actual OS and not enough people to do it as soon as it should have been done.

                      Third, what’s the point of making it Harmattan compatible when Qt is supposed to provide the compatibility?

                      Is there some point you don’t agree with?

                    • Nathan

                      My point is quite simply that it’d be far more illuminating to hear from the horses mouth so-to-speak, I’m not interested in getting into some kind of psychosomatic debate with you.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      So you would like to silence me and wait for some answer you may never get.

                      Having a discussion with me would probably be pointless for you since you apparently don’t know the mobile well enough.

                      I do.

                      People like you are very easy to recognize. You just can’t talk about the actual subject because you lack the knowledge but you would still want to be able to believe.

                      Do you know how arrogant you are?

                      Yes?

                    • Nathan

                      Wow, you’re really resorting to personal attacks on a large scale now, I don’t know what to say, you simply have completely missed my point.

                      Regardless, I’ll tune out now, there are far more respectful & relevant people on the internet that we’d all do better engaging when it comes to this subject matter.

                    • Random Random

                      Do you know how arrogant you sound when you ask me to be silent?

                    • Nathan

                      You’re putting words into my mouth here, I never once told you to be silent, I think you’re well aware of that.

                      You on the other hand, have been utterly rude in your latest posts.

                      Goodbye.

                    • Random Random

                      “Lets leave this Qn for those who know what they’re talking about shall we.”

                    • Nathan

                      I was stating the obvious, it wasn’t a personal attack, nice of you to mischaracterise what I said though.

                      What you wrote on the the other hand, was crystal clear in it’s rudeness.

                    • Random Random

                      You tried to say that I wouldn’t know what I’m talking about what it comes to this subject.

                      Quite arrogant to claim something like that.

                    • Nathan

                      No I wasn’t saying that, I was saying only Jolla devs will have the best insights as to the decisions they may or may not have taken, nothing more, nothing less.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      In that case there is no reason to leave that topic for them.

                      Here in MNB people are talking about various topics even while they are not the actual developers.

                      I made some very good points about Harmattan support for Jolla and you can talk about that if you want to.

                      You can choose not to talk about it if you don’t have the knowledge or if you don’t want to.

                      I can talk about it because I have the knowledge and I felt like commenting.

                    • Nathan

                      Sigh…

                      I’ve never disputed the points you’ve made, they are all ones that are completely obvious to me, & ones I would’ve made myself (not disrespect you ofc).

                      I’m talking about the kind of specialised knowledge that can only come from those intimately involved in such things, knowledge which can offer a far more nuanced understanding of the decisions they took, or may take going forward.

                      That’s the thing with this project, I’ve been intimately involved with much bigger platforms, but never have I had a direct line to devs & been able to have surprisingly candid discussions. That’s the experience I’ve had many times now with those directly involved with Jolla/MeR/Nemo/Sailfish, which is why I simply made the suggestion.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      Before the developers commenting about this, I see no reason to “leave” this discussion for them.

                      They probably have some information we don’t have, but that’s hardly ever a reason for not to talk about the subject. Whatever the subject is.

                    • Nathan

                      That’s true, but you’ve mostly covered all that can be, more interesting snippets (& further discussions upon that no doubt) can come…

                      It’s no guarantee, they’ve very limited resources/time, & for various reasons they don’t always open up, but there are ways to reach out, & they often (in my experience) do.

                    • Random Random

                      In these conversations there will always be some topics that were covered at an earlier time.

                    • GordonH

                      RR is rude and mentally ill.

                      p.s.Quick Janne protect RR by giving us another 50 long comments .

                    • Janne

                      Quick, GordonH, add nothing to the discussion by spamming another thread with your dozens of insults without any actual content in your messages!

                    • GordonH

                      ;-) Nice one Janne.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      RR trolling is like adding more and more water to the juice, and finally there is not even memories of the taste.

                      The RR point is to have the last comment, no meter how stupid it will be or how unrelated or what a personal attack it would be.

                      Also interesting is supporting opposite claims what can suggest a kind of illness or that dear RR is a group of people using the same login. Otherwise that would mean RR is not sleeping, not eating, not doing anything but only commenting.

                      of course – how ignorant am I, etc.etc. ;) :D

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      Yes.

                      You are ignorant.

        • Janne

          Nathan: Mine was more general musings than a response to you, so sorry if that was left unclear.

          • Nathan

            +1

  • GordonH

    Waiting for Sailfish to catch up. A Linux mobile OS is very tempting at this moment to many fed up with American OSs.

    • dss

      Anything non-American stand absolutely no chance at the moment.. its harsh I know, but its reality.

      • Jiipee

        Why? Afaik Chinese are slowly pushing their own OSs and will have their alternative(s) at some point, if there are only US OS out there. China is losing so much of their potential of the total value in smartphones.

        • http://www.forfictionmobile.com/ zlutor

          ATM what annoys me most is ignoring privacy by US guys. Will OSs from Chine be any way better? I doubt that…

          sailfish would be a good candidate from this point (too) but they have to develop it quickly. We will see how it goes…

        • Janne

          Could have sworn I wrote a reply to this earlier. Maybe it got stuck somewhere or went accidentally to another thread.

          Anyway, I think Americans must be commended for a job well done on global software ecosystems. Thinking very hard over the past decades, I can’t think of any other global software ecosystems (than American) other than Japanese gaming consoles.

          During the 8-bits, some European, mostly English makers enjoyed brief moments in the sun, but those didn’t last. During the smartphones European (British Symbian, Finnish Nokia) makers did succeed in global device market, but even then no real software ecosystem for Symbian was born.

          I think language plays some market, outside of gaming most Asian phenomenons have remained local, as have for example some curious French ecosystems (Minitel springs to mind). Natively English ecosystems have naturally wider reach, while obviously the U.S. has a very strong history in software, marketing… and it is a big country with lots of people and thus lots of talent. Even in FOSS, where I think some global things have been achieved, Finnish Linus Torvalds moved to the U.S. to keep doing his thing.

          Now, this doesn’t mean the RoW is destined forever to toil away with American software and a token Japanese gaming console. It just means the U.S. holds a strong lead. In the history of technology, things have changed pole position many times and certainly there are strong technology sectors elsewhere in the world too (example: cars). I think we should commend the Americans for a job well done on software, while striving of course to compete and do even better. In the long run, who knows where the next thriving software ecosystem will come.

          Perhaps from China. Perhaps from somewhere nobody guesses now.

          • burning nkia jumper

            China have already such an OS it is called “Kylin” and is a Linux of course. It is enforced to use it in many places. It very probable it contains Chinese version of PRISM for invigilation purposes.

  • Omka

    I am sad Nokia

  • BellGo

    Outright killing Symbian and MeeGo was either a beyond idiotic move or a planned strategy to tie Nokia to WP. Either way the result of this strategy is Nokia as we know it being sold off to MS. Sad to see one of the greats go like this. Especially when it was probably so easily avoidable. (Android and attempting to sell MeeGo and Symbian, aka not putting your eggs in one basket)

    End of an era.

    • Random Random

      Any proof that Nokia would have been able to use several production quality operating systems?

      Jorma Ollila has stated in his recent book that Nokia didn’t have resources for that. That’s my source. Maybe you have a better one?

      Samsung may be a able to pull it off but they apparently have a better organization making it possible for them. Nokia didn’t have Samsung’s organization.

      • BellGo

        “Any proof that Nokia would have been able to use several production quality operating systems?”

        That they supported Symbian regardless and MeeGo was already done, and much smaller manufacturers are capable of doing it now.

        Any counterpoints?

        • Random Random

          Nokia wasn’t really pushing Symbian once they switched to MeeGo in 2010. They actually downsized the planned updated once they switched to MeeGo.

          The other manufacturers are not Nokia and they may have better organization structure. Nokia just didn’t have the culture for that.

          My source was Jorma Ollila. What’s yours?

          • BellGo

            “Nokia wasn’t really pushing Symbian once they switched to MeeGo in 2010.”

            Nokia released Symbian devices and updates and marketed it in 2010 and after. Yet it was known that they would stop supporting it and that it was a dead platform. To undo this literally ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS NOT TO SAY THAT IT WOULD BE KILLED.

            It is simply ignoring reality claiming that Nokia could not update Symbian and release Symbian devices when this is exactly what they did. If Jorma Ollila ignores this, I don’t care.

            MeeGo OS was done, but killed upon release. All Nokia needed to do was to release the same devices running MeeGo instead of WP, costing them nothing. If Jorma Ollila ignores this, I don’t care.

            Android is free. All Nokia needed to do was to release the same devices running Android instead of WP, costing them nothing. If Jorma Ollila ignores this, I don’t care.

            Now, any real counterpoints?

            • Random Random

              Jorma Ollila says that Nokia didn’t have resources to do that.

              Apparently they just had to do that for a while while transitioning from Symbian to MeeGo, but transitioning means that the old system must be downsized. If not, it means running it parallel.

              Are you saying that they could have continued with Symbian in parallel by just ending the Symbian R&D and not releasing new products. And not announcing it was a dead platform.

              How is it running in parallel if there are no new devices? How, really?

              How was MeeGo supposed to be done if it wasn’t ready to ship in 112? It was not done. R&D costs.

              Releasing Android phones requires the same R&D to be done for Android if it’s forked. That costs.

              Using a non forked Android still requires work. Or do you seriously think the software can just be installed in Nokia hardware without any work to be done? That costs.

              • BellGo

                “How is it running in parallel if there are no new devices? How, really?”

                But there were new devices and updates after announcing Symbian dead? OBVIOUSLY not now, as it is long gone, but I am talking about history and what could have been. Even in 2012 Symbian phones were released. I am not saying it should be brought back now, it is dead, but I am talking about what should have been done.

                “How was MeeGo supposed to be done if it wasn’t ready to ship in 112?”

                No idea what you are saying here.

                “Using a non forked Android still requires work. Or do you seriously think the software can just be installed in Nokia hardware without any work to be done? That costs.”

                Are you seriously suggesting that for a multibillion dollar company that cost (which has been done by enthusiasts for free) would be anything but negligible? ESPECIALLY considering that now we know that Nokia did in fact have devices running Android.

                • Random Random

                  Obviously Nokia was also going to make losses while supporting more than one OS in 2011. Jorma Ollila said that they were nor able to afford two operating systems.

                  There is also no proof suggesting that the collapse of the Symbian unit sales happened because of 112 memo. It happened at the same time, but maybe Nokia just ended it when the sales collapsed?

                  I said that MeeGo was not ready to ship. It needed more work. It was not free for Nokia because it was not completed.

                  I am suggesting that Nokia needed to add lots of custom software for Android if they wanted to do anything but an OEM version.

                  Also, Nokia didn’t have the organization of the other companies doing it with less resources. We know Nokia had devices running Android but there was never info about Nokia having production quality Android devices.

                  • burning nkia jumper

                    Nokia has shipped N9 with MeeGo so that as a fact exclude “MeeGo was not ready” – MeeGo were in sale, ready enough to generate money.

                    Further development is a normal implication I think, and I see no problem with this as there are updates, new models etc.

                    Even when MeeGo was an young child, then Symbian was a cow milk to earn for all needed changes.

                    You say Nokia had no resources, but it had enough resources to burn them with hopeless and enormous promotion of WP. I suppose that a friction of those costs would cover all costs you have mentioned.

                    Also Nokia could focus on developing own structure to better performance and effectiveness – also that would cost much less then the WP hopeless promotion. I think adjusting/adopting organisation to new circumstances is a must, not any revolution but normal activity. And Nokia really can effort for a separate think-tank for this purpose – it is a question of will or a question of farming own Jobs to do this. Alien Steven E. will not do this, as his aims are entirely different then Nokia effectiveness.

                    “Hopeless” WP promotion as WP still is buried in 1% of market – so that has gave none effect in relation to costs.

                    I still hope that Nokia at last has learnt above lessons, but nothing is certain in this area for me.

                    • Random Random

                      MeeGo was not ready when Nokia decided to switch to WP. This is what I was saying. It was going to need resources if Nokia was going to use it. Just like I said. This is normal. It wouldn’t be normal if resources were not needed.

                      There was the burning platform memo and there was the decline of Symbian’s unit sales. Were these two linked? There was never any real proof suggesting that the decline of Symbian’s unit sales happened because of the burning platform memo. It’s just assumption.

                      Or maybe you have something about that?

                      If Symbian’s decline happened despite the memo, it was not going to be able to earn money for Nokia.

                      Developing own structure.

                      Nokia was trying to do that for years. What makes you think that they were able to do that now even while someone was hired to to it? They had hired people to do that at an earlier time and they failed to develop the structure.

                • Noki

                  “Are you seriously suggesting that for a multibillion dollar company that cost (which has been done by enthusiasts for free”

                  Yes he is don’t you know Nokia paid every single person in say Meego 150000 € per year… he knows they were more expensive than symbian that was 130000 per year…
                  Sounds crazy? it probably is just Random…

                  • Random Random

                    Nokia didn’t pay them that much.

                    You don’t seem to understand that salary is not the only cost.

                    • Noki

                      OOO i thought the 1500000 included the indirect expenses, like hardware building depreciation taxes etc. o it did not included those are you saing the the 150000 was net income WOW I’m gonna work for Nokia and all my former Nokia friends are freaking rich.
                      Yes Nokia paid 6 digit wages to every single person in meego…You are aware that, such it incomes are not common at all and certainly not common in Nokia.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      You said “Nokia paid every single person in say Meego 150000 € per year…”

                      It seems that you are once again astroturfing.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      The point is not Nokia were paying salary 150k or 130k but that Nokia have not monetised as could effects created with this money. So investment was not utilised as it was possible. Real proof is Jolla and Sailfish, which generates and earns money, even when they had to change HW platform in the fly. Salaries are not the only costs, but any organisation must have an idea what to do or will have to disappear. It is not obvious how it is about Nokia with this stuff.

                    • Random Random

                      You say that Jolla is earning money.

                      I assume you have some idea about how much they are generating it or what their unit sales are.

                      If not, what is the point of saying they are earning money?

                      If they earn too little of it, that business is not profitable.

                      Jolla also seems to be on a niche business. That wouldn’t have been enough for Nokia.

                    • Noki

                      hey %$$%$#%#&#&%$#%&$ it was you that gave us the 150 000 number a year remember???
                      wen you were so happy about the 2000 developers Nokia had on Meego that were soo expensive, but once we run the number on your eralier 100.000 comes only to 200M (aka peanuts) a year so you boosted that number to 150.000 per developer….

                      You are a JOKE

                    • Random Random

                      Yes Noki.

                      Apparently you didn’t know that lots of the MeeGo team were located in US and that costs more.

                      I’ll educate you a bit more.

                      Nokia had one thousand people in the united states and Jorma Ollila said in his book that those people were there also to figure out the future trends while working on Nokia’s future platforms.

                      Locating people in US is more expensive.

                      Now I have educated you on this topic.

                      You should read the book yourself.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      No, location is US is not more expensive as prices in the US are lower then in Finland, so that is rather savings. Otherwise MS would export all their’s stuff to Finland to make savings.

                      Jolla is earning money as they have sold out the whole production lot at prices they wanted to sell it. Or do you want to claim that Jolla has calculated sale but below costs and sold out has generated a negative income and revenue? Do not copy/cut Lumia payied by MS scheme everywhere.

                    • Random Random

                      Nokia moved lots of Finns to work in US and that’s much more expensive than employing them in Finland.

                      We have not received any information about Jolla having massive sales.

                    • noki

                      Random the ever moving argument machine what a joke….

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      You apparently didn’t know that Nokia had almost 1000 people working in US. Lots of Finns.

                      You apparently don’t know that much about Nokia.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      Dear RR answering you endless questions is senseless and just boring.

                      I just don’t care if you call me ignorant or something. You are the biggest waste of time in the internet and I don’t want to waste my time for answering again and again the same questions or false arguments.

                      I can live with this, you will have to.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      You haven’t really answered any questions.

  • sinple

    even though symbian and meego ended support, there would still be new apps thru the asha phone?

    Not sure about meego, but i thought symbian phone is fully capable of running asha(S40 java) apps?

  • Acura69

    RIP. Symbian has served me well over the years with my N95 & N8 (and hopefully soon my 808). Meego is currently doing the job … shame it had to end this way.

  • Carbontubby

    What makes me sad, really really sad, is how Qt on Symbian could have been a decent tool to tie things together with Meego. Unfortunately it took too long to be finished, Symbian’s internals were too convoluted, and even the supposedly cross-platform bits between Meego and Symbian weren’t similar.

    But on a good day when the stars are properly aligned and you keep your code clean and simple enough, it’s amazing to see the reality of a cross-platform toolkit come true. As a programmer I love the elegance and simplicity of QML and Qt but I’m sad to see it as a foundation for dead platforms like Symbian, Meego and possibly BB10 and Sailfish.

    Nokia could have cornered the smartphone market by making compelling devices for consumers and creating a compelling environment for developers. They failed on both fronts.

    • Random Random

      Qt’s problem is that it doesn’t really force the developers to code truly cross platform code like using the Dalvik VM does.

      It’s a strength and a possibility, but also a weakness.

    • Janne

      Carbontubby:

      What makes me sad, really really sad, is how Qt on Symbian could have been a decent tool to tie things together with Meego. Unfortunately it took too long to be finished, Symbian’s internals were too convoluted, and even the supposedly cross-platform bits between Meego and Symbian weren’t similar.

      But on a good day when the stars are properly aligned and you keep your code clean and simple enough, it’s amazing to see the reality of a cross-platform toolkit come true. As a programmer I love the elegance and simplicity of QML and Qt but I’m sad to see it as a foundation for dead platforms like Symbian, Meego and possibly BB10 and Sailfish.

      Now, there is a good comment if I ever saw one.

      Unfortunately even this good comment succumbs a little into wishful thinking on cross-platform toolkits. It is very rarely that you have a good day where you can (or perhaps even should) keep your code clean and simple enough – especially for Symbian’s flavor of Qt that, really, like coding for Symbian anything, was still miles apart from what it was to code for your average other platform.

      Symbian was/is really weird. This is not appreciated by people who are not programmers or who are not familiar with programming Symbian. Many such people also think Qt is some magic word that suddenly made Symbian “normal”. It helped somewhat, but it didn’t make it normal.

      • Random Random

        Yes.

        Normal is the key word.

        An operating system must be normal in order to succeed.

        Qt is an API and what some people don’t understand is that it must be implemented on the target platform. As an API it can’t really improve the underlying OS like Symbian. It can only try to hide some issues the OS has.

        This is what some people can’t understand.

        • Janne

          One big deal about Symbian, and reason why it is so “weird” architecturally and to code for, is that it is really designed with very constrained devices in mind. This is also why Nokia was so heavily betting on it, their vision of the mobile future included these constrained devices, where even the GSM part might be performed by the CPU (where real-time guarantees would be necessary).

          Instead, the world moved into a completely different direction, ironically (and sadly) one that a team in-house at Nokia had seen – the Maemo team. The world moved into pushing non-real-time desktop/server operating in to the pocket, because the hardware simply caught up and there was less and less need to put separate resource constrained hardware and software into the pocket.

          Indeed, this is now hurting even QNX as car companies seem to be moving towards iOS and Android in car multimedia systems, where a real-time QNX was previously favored. The hardware has become so powerful that you can now “embed” into things, that it is more and more rare that you need specialized, resource constrained and/or real-time guaranteed software.

          Nokia simply bet on the wrong future. They should have bet on Maemo.

          • burning nkia jumper

            That make sense, and now they should bet on the Sailfish in the Nokia.

            • Janne

              A Nokia Sailfish device would certainly be interesting for some people, myself included. Not that I really expect one, but it would be interesting – at least for a small developer/Linux geek/gadget enthusiast niche at this time.

              The problem of creating an ecosystem for Sailfish remains, like it remained with MeeGo and Maemo. Since 2005 it would have been easier to grow one, than in 2014. Now the focus of most mobile developers is being taken by iOS, Android and – to a growing extent – the Windows “Metro” platforms.

              It will certainly be a long road for the likes of Ubuntu, Tizen, Sailfish and Firefox to get a mobile app-ecosystem going for them. Best of luck to all of them, we need more and more competition in the software platforms industry – so that monopolies and duopolies are not allowed to reign forever.

          • Carbontubby

            They should have bet on Android ;) Symbian was born from the days of EPOC32 when mobile applications processors were running at 32 MHz and RAM was precious. Android being resource-hungry didn’t matter because the hardware finally caught up with the software and that made the hardware cheap.

            The amazing thing about Android which Nokia/Blackberry/HP didn’t see was that the Dalvik VM abstracted the underlying hardware. It didn’t matter if you were running an ARM11, Cortex A9, quad-core Scorpion or even an x86 Atom, your app code was still the same. Stupid Nokia couldn’t even port Symbian^3 to ARMv7 (even though Samsung could with S60v5) and Jolla spent too long porting to a new platform once STE dropped out of the SoC game. Android’s success came because it opened up the mobile playing field to new SoC entrants and device manufacturers while enticing developers with a huge market.

            Could Symbian or Meego have been adopted by Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturers like Lenovo, ZTE, Huawei, Coolpad, or HTC? The licensing headaches and the amount of optimization required would have put them off. Now they can grab a ready hardware and firmware platform from Qualcomm, Mediatek or Intel, grab teh software from Google, do some tweaking and have a device ready to sell in a few months.

            As for Qt on Symbian, it’s like putting lipstick on a pig ;) At least it made developing on Symbian bearable instead of being a total nightmare.

            • Random Random

              That’s very true.

              You also make a very good point about how Qt would have worked on Android. It wouldn’t have been a good choice since it produced native code and not something for the Dalvk VM.

              That’s a very good comment.

              • Carbontubby

                Qt on Android would have been pointless since it produces native code. QML on the other hand is cross-platform with a Javascript-like syntax but then again, Dalvik is a Java clone so what’s the point? It would have been adding another layer of complexity to something which already works well.

                What Jolla needs to answer is this: how much time does an OEM need to get a new Sailfish device to market? If it’s faster and cheaper to get an Android device out there, then Jolla has already lost.

                • Random Random

                  Yes, that’s also true.

                  I wonder why people like Noki are not arguing with you while you are saying pretty much the same thing I am.

                  Currently it doesn’t look too good for Jolla. I see no reason why it would be cheaper or faster to ship a Jolla phone compared to shipping an Android phone. There may be market for a single manufacturer designing those niche products, but really, how could they sell in volumes?

            • Janne

              Excellent input Carbontubby.

              Yes, going Android could have worked for Nokia.

              Then again, I think had Nokia gone Maemo full-blast in 2005, they could have made the native Linux platform work even better than Android does with Dalvik. After all, Apple manages just great with a native iOS.

              I wager Nokia didn’t really need to be as portable as Android is. They needed to have a better OS and ecosystem potential years earlier and they would have had that in Maemo, had they really pushed it early on. Focusing on Maemo would have allowed them to make timely ports to whatever hardware was needed and keep the software development platform coherent and working.

              Shoehorning Qt to Symbian cost them tons of precious time. It wasn’t necessary to have Symbian at all, for the longer term. That’s what they failed to see. They could have done all and more with Maemo, by focusing on it and developing it forward in a consistent manner. (Series 40 could and would have covered the extreme low-end market segment, of course, where resource scarcity still reigns for a few more years.)

            • burning nkia jumper

              MeeGo HAD BEEN adopted by Lenovo, Acer, Asus and others. eg see Lenovo IdeaPad100 (perhaps with “S”) it is the product in sale, so it has happened and was possible do bring products to market in reasonable time. And M$ was terrified about this.

              The answer to your qns about Dalvik is the MER project, which just has created standard, “raw libraries” of the core of the OS and possibilities to create new products fast and easy. And Sailfish use and follow the MER, and also contribute to the MER. Whatsmore: MER is free&open software so any vendor can take the MER core (which is MeeGo in about 70-80% and further developments of MeeGo), can take the MER core for free and create an own product, or can take the Sailfish distribution (exactly like Android model works) if don’t want do it on his own.

              In the MER what is needed to use another hardware (either Intel or ARM or any other) is to have or adopt the kernel to work with hardware and to be compatible with the MER core so to comply the standard = and just it works. It has been already proven by running the Sailfish on different devices like Acer Iconia and many others. So for some interesting can be that it can be placed also on Lumia hardware, however it will probably break warranties etc. but will bring new experience to Nokia hardware :)

              Also this allowed to built in the Sailfish OS the Alien Dalvik sometimes called compatibility layer. Most probably this could be used to create the same emulation for Harmattan or even Symbian – if somebody will be determined enough to do it. Jolla has stated they are not to support other companies products like Nokia’s products, so I would not expect Jolla to do it, even if they would be given Harmattan codes.

              • Random Random

                It’s just not enough to get MeeGo running on some hardware. Releasing a phone requires lots of additional work.

                Then again it wasn’t exactly a simple task to get MeeGo running on a new phone. For various reasons. Jolla is a good example of that. 100 workers and several years and still not a finalized phone in the stores.

                • Noki

                  FUD :) stands for?

                  • Random Random

                    Maybe you should learn it?

                    • Noki

                      ??????? what ??? hhahahahaha dude what FUD?? I should learn FUD???? HHAHAHAHAH hilarious

                • burning nkia jumper

                  Dear RR you obviously are smoking and trolling first and then only, perhaps, reading with comprehension, behave please!

                  Mentioned adoptions of MeeGo have related to notebooks and laptops not mobiles, MeeGo – (and now respectively Sailfish or other distros containing the MER core and hence following the MeeGo standard in the current state of MER development) – was adopted to devices of various purposes and works very well in those products still.

                  And that was what for M$ was so terrifying that decided even to pay Nokia, only to stop/kill the MeeGo project. MeeGo has been spreading, and was accepted in products of various purposes. So why to compete when there is a moll and a possibility to pay for butchering a competitive project? Of course those are only unverified rumours and there are no proofs of any kind.

                  And again you are making full of yourself:
                  “Then again it wasn’t exactly a simple task to get MeeGo running on a new phone. For various reasons. Jolla is a good example of that. 100 workers and several years and still not a finalized phone in the stores.”
                  Let’s forget this is not about what I have mentioned about adoption of MeeGo by other companies, lets forget if making a MeeGo distro is easy task and for whom. To my knowledge Jolla has finalised their smartphone and it is in the stores (eg. DNA or internet store), as customers are buying it. Don’t make me laugh saying that buying in the internet is not buying in the store, please!

                  Your smoking is tiring and propagating interpretations with falsification of reality, even when there are some facts or true things in your posts also. And even when some ideas or findings I agree with as I assume they are true.

                  • Janne

                    It is true that MeeGo was probably a bit more mature on netbooks than anywhere else because of Moblin, but to claim MeeGo was really mature anywhere would be really stretching it.

                    Indeed, MeeGo was very late to the game and very incomplete. Perhaps had Nokia really pushed Maemo in 2005 things would have been different.

                    How many of you remember Nokia had a Linux set-top box under development 10+ years ago? Today we hear about television operating systems.

                    Maemo could have been one of those. But Nokia wasted too much time, including time on the mess that became MeeGo. In the end, I doubt if Intel was a very good partnership.

                    Nokia should have kept to Maemo and pushed it harder and earlier.

                    • Random Random

                      Yes.

                      Watching now those MeeGo videos from 2010 look almost embarrassing.

                      There is the UI and some fancy tricks but very little in addition to that.

                  • Random Random

                    Without an unified UI, it’s not that relevant. Unified on the binary level.

                    The Jolla phone is in beta. It’s not finalized.

        • Carbontubby

          Just look at the buglist for Qt on Symbian and weep… Qt 4.7.4 on Belle Refresh has plenty of outstanding bugs, Qt 4.8 on Belle FP2 adds even more. Most of these came from covering up for Symbian’s weirdness which simply isn’t needed in this age of cheap, powerful hardware.

          If you really want to experience this, load up the last Symbian-compatible version of Qt Creator. Try creating a “Hello World” program in QML, Qt and Symbian C++ to see how utterly screwed up Symbian is.

          • Random Random

            Yes.

            Symbian really was that bad.

            That’s also the reason why there really wasn’t a migration path from Symbian to MeeGo.

            SOme people were saying how there would have been Qt applications for Symbian once it would have gotten traction, but it really never did and this definitely contributed for it.

            I really wonder how some people can’t see it.

            • Carbontubby

              If Qt for Symbian was ready in 2009 and developers were brought onboard, it could have allowed for a more enticing Meego ecosystem in 2010, but Qt on either platform wasn’t ready until 2011! I would say Qt on Symbian only became workable with Belle Refresh/FP1 in 2012 when Android/iOS had completely outclassed it.

              If your kernel and base OS is a mess, as Symbian was in 2009, then hacking a meta-layer on top to make it more attractive is simply putting lipstick on a pig. Nokia should have killed Symbian^3 and put all resources into Maemo instead of flip-flopping. Ironically it was Microsoft that did this by killing WP7/WinCE and moving to WP8/NT.

              • Random Random

                Yes.

                This is very true. If Qt had been ready in 2009 and MeeGo shipped in 2010, Nokia would have been able to continue making phones. At least very probably.

                If Qt fort Symbian was ready in 2009 and MeeGo was launched in 2011 they just might have been able to survive because Qt for Symbian would have been able to catch enough traction.

                But with the Qt version they had in reality, I just don’t see how they were supposed to compete. Some people here talk about how easy it’s to deploy Qt applications in a matter of hours and how that would have saved Symbian. But they always fail to comment on Symbian’s Qt.

                I really wonder why?

                If I was into same theories those people like to have, I would say someone was paying people to say that. However that’s not likely. I don’t think people are really paid to write comments on MNB.

                • Carbontubby

                  Because Symbian became a religion? Maybe Meego was a smaller cult ;) People will overlook many things if they’re emotionally invested into something.

                  The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you think Qt could have saved Symbian and Nokia, then grab a copy of Qt Creator from early 2011, flash your S^3 phone back to Anna, and enjoy. For me, Qt on Symbian only became viable in late 2012, but by then it was already too late for Nokia. And that’s for a geek like me… normal users wouldn’t have bothered to wait so long when other companies like Apple and Samsung took their concerns much more seriously.

                • Carbontubby

                  And we forget the flip-flopping between Maemo and Meego, Orbit/Symbian4 and Qt, from 2009-2010… Nokia could have succeeded if it made a decision and stuck to it, instead of changing its mind every other minute.

                  • Random Random

                    Yes, once I rwad the book by Jorma Ollila, it was quite obvious that in the last 10 years Nokia didn’t have a clue they should have been doing.

                    They were simply lost and trying to manage with logistics and cutting the prices on the manufacturing process.

                  • Janne

                    Nobody is forgetting that flip-flopping, at least not me.

                    My criticism towards Nokia lacking a focus is heavily rooted in those events of 2009-2010 and the different, mostly incompatible and separate paths you list by name – glued together by Qt in marketing speak, but in reality not really glued together at all.

                    • Janne

                      Wasn’t Meltemi too started in 2010?

                      Nokia really had no clue what they were supposed to be focusing on. They lacked focused leadership and instead waster tons and tons of R&D money on false starts that they later cancelled before or quickly after launch. This was Nokia’s big problem during the latter half of the noughties, making a mess of their smartphone software efforts.

                      All that is the reason why Elop was eventually brought in – and of course we know he did some things to tighten the focus. Symbian too was focused: incompatible Symbian^4 was cancelled, replaced with Anna/Belle and that’s why older Symbian’s got Belle too. Then again, even under Elop there was Meltemi, Android project, Asha platform forks, different tablet efforts etc., all sorts of prongs going nowhere.

                      Nokia lacked focused leadership and thus waster resources instead of producing market-worthy results for modern high-end smartphones.

                • burning nkia jumper

                  Dear RR you again mix things and misinform readers:
                  “Some people here talk about how easy it’s to deploy Qt applications in a matter of hours and how that would have saved Symbian. ”

                  This is about porting Qt project/code from other OS to Sailfish.

                  It really is a question of hours, and this really can bring second life to projects worth to survive, which have generated money for developers, and so which can generate money with Sailfish again.

                  But this does not help Symbian to survive at all, however can help Symbian developers to make money further.

                  And potential market is promising, especially considering the “global niche” of 175 countries from which preorders have came and where the first lot of Jolla’s mobiles has been sold out. Time will tell.

                  • Random Random

                    Very few seem to be ported. Something is preventing the porting from happening.

  • darknight

    For all its fame and glory that resulted Nokia to own the platform, Symbian was the root of Nokia success story before the IOS or WP. One major update of what there is in the platform should give Nokia the pride of owning it towards the end. We will never know…

    • Janne

      Root of Nokia’s success story was the platform we later became to know as Series 30/40. It is not Symbian. In the early 2000s, the smartphone market was still relatively small.

      • burning nkia jumper

        Yes and no – the roots were in listening to customers needs, that is why that platform was loved, for doing what customers were expecting it to do. That is what counts.

        • Random Random

          Well.

          The normal people are more important than the geeks.

          Symbian was more important for the geeks. The normal people wanted to have something like iPhone and at a later time Android was able to offer.

          Very few people bought Symbian phones because of those geeky features it had. Normal people usually bought Symbian based phones because they couldn’t afford the real stuff. That was iPhone.

          Once Android became good enough in the low end, people picked those instead of Symbian phones because that’s what people wanted to have. Not the unstable and flawed Symbian phones.

          • Carbontubby

            How many people bought Nokia phones because of Symbian, and not because of Nokia?

            I’d say it was Nokia’s legendary hardware quality and strong advertising spend on the concept of multimedia convergence that made the brand. People would have bought Nokia phones in spite of Symbian, not because of it. I remember buying my first Nokia Symbian smartphone way back in 2006, marveling at the sheer ability of the pocket computer in my hand but also being frustrated by the ridiculous UI and unstable software. Normal non-geek users would have gone along with Symbian’s obtuseness until something more user-friendly came along – the iPhone. The rest is history.

            • burning nkia jumper

              People buy because they have needs, and only they know what they need. I agree that people first were buying the Nokia brand and only after a time they were becoming more familiar with OS at all, either Symbian or other. So that was Nokia who promoted Symbian and made it global OS. And of course qualities gone with a burning winds, like durability, good materials, performance, service etc.

              >Symbian was more important for the geeks. The normal >people wanted to have something like iPhone and at a >later time Android was able to offer.
              iPhone has changed touchscreen, most of possibilities were present in Symbian, and significant number of people still prefer Symbian then iPhone.

              >Very few people bought Symbian phones because of those >geeky features it had.
              Yes, most of people have bought Symbian because they are good mobiles.

              >Normal people usually bought Symbian based phones >because they couldn’t afford the real stuff. That was >iPhone.
              No that is not true. iPhone is an gadget to show one have plenty of money, but some users need just a good and reliable mobile. Some people just don’t want to spend such a money, and they have them. Speculations.

              >Once Android became good enough in the low end, people >picked those instead of Symbian phones because that’s >what people wanted to have. Not the unstable and flawed >Symbian phones.
              That is a question of price policy, Android were cheaper not any better. And Nokia as usually were to slow to react. Just like with MeeGo – lost opportunities, even when all chances and resources they had in Nokia’s possession.

              Microsoft has not abandoned Windows for better OS, they were developing it continuously and consequently. Just like Apple with iOS. Nokia could follow that path, but has chosen differently. It is a risk that was taken.

              • Random Random

                More people preferred Symbian over iPhone? Well. Obviously lots of people didn’t just have money for iPhone and they had to buy a Symbian based phone.

                It’s really funny you mention good and reliable since Symbian really wasn’t good and reliable. It was ever freezing pile of bugs.

                When I switched from Symbian to iPhone, I had less dropped calls and less issues with the phone. Symbian really wasn’t too reliable.

                Are you saying Android phones were cheaper than Symbian based phones and that’s why Android succeeded so much better than Symbian?

                Nokia really couldn’t make Symbian good enough and that’s why they just had to switch to something.

                Nokia would have been forced to start from zero installed base with WP or MeeGo. Those both were new operating systems.

                Starting from zero means building the user base from grounds up. That’s slow work and it’s unlikely that MeeGo would have fared any better than WP.

                WP got some really good YoY growth rates.

                • GordonH

                  some good YoY growth from cheap phones.

                  • GordonH

                    A top smartphone selling OS was made out to be a disaster . While a great Linux OS Meego was lied as not being ready. Android alternative was lied off as that google did not allow differentiation.

                    A weak WinCE based OS(WP7) was choosen for political reasons not technical merits. WinCE was so bad a technical choice that even MS dumped it. But Nokia choose it and dumped every other OS choice.

                    • burning nkia jumper

                      To be honest – Elop did it. How he convinced BOD to such stupidity will be buried and hidden most probably to the end of days… Anyway, Elop case for books like Osborne case.

                    • Random Random

                      Well.

                      That’s the Symbian religion and MeeGo cilt speaking.

                  • Random Random

                    Well.

                    Very low YoY growth compared to what it should have been.

                    Less than the growth on the market.

        • burning nkia jumper

          …and BTW still that counts. If Meltemi would follow that way, even if now it would be called Asha – then this situation would repeat again. With or without buttons.

  • JCD

    After months of not visiting MNB, (I lost interest on anything Nokia after that damn acquisition news) I just came back here to bid my last farewell to Symbian and Nokia.

    This is a bitter ending for all Nokia x Symbian fans, I guess. The 808 PureView is going to be the last Nokia I will ever own. At least I’m consoled by the fact that the camera in iPhone 5S is excellent. Good enough to give the 1020 a run for its money.

    I thought I was going to get emotional and shed a tear again as I write this but it’s weird I don’t feel the pain anymore. I guess I have finally moved on. There’s no more Nokia for me. But I will forever cherish those wonderful memories I had with Nokia starting from their green back-lit screens, to Xpress-On Colour Covers, the dawn of camera phones and MMS, up to the golden years of Nokia when they released their Nseries starting with the N70. I could say those were the best years of mobile history. Nowadays new technologies and developments in smart phones don’t excite me anymore.

    P.S: I’ve been a solid and die-hard Nokia fan since I was in grade school (1998) up to the time I finished college and went to law school.

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