Videos: Elop in Africa; Nokia No longer on Burning Platform; New upgrades ahead for Symbian. (Carla, Donna?)
Stephen Elop was in South Africa and Businessday.co.za reports Elop had been reflecting on the situation since last year.
http://www.businessday.co.za/Articles/Content.aspx?id=164732
He apparently said The writer concluded that Nokia were no longer on that infamous burning platform. Where are we? Are we in limbo? Supposedly Nokia’s future is now more secure after those tough decisions were made. Elop talks about the change in shift from the Old Nokia guard focused simply on market share:
“The previous leadership of Nokia was so focused on their massive global market share, and so strong at the bottom of the pyramid, that they didn’t see it crumbling from the top”
On the memo:
“I sat down to write the memo as a call for action and, a year later, everyone in the company says Nokia is changing”
Nokia certainly is changing. Whether that is for the better is quite controversial. What we do know is that the same media and blogs that used to shun and sneer at Nokia products are certainly now awarding them with praise. Slowly but surely, great products might turn Nokia around again.
I tried to find another source about this story and found a much longer article with Elop.
Elop accepts this will not be an easy task. But as mentioned, it is possible for Nokia to reverse the trend on their declining mindshare as long as they can consistently produce great products. There has been quite some excellent feedback so far on Nokia’s new smartphones.
Is it a hard battle? Do we have to re-establish the brand and win the hearts and minds? Of course. We’re going to be establishing the beachhead – that’s a word I’ve been using a lot lately – and clawing our way forward and that’s okay, that’s the challenge. But with great products, and a good strategy, we’re going to make some progress
Whilst we’re on the subject of Stephen Elop, I do remember noticing a couple of videos a few days ago. This one from ABN Digital, “Africa’s Leading Online Platform in Business, Economic and Stock Market News”
by ABNDigital
Different interview from last week in Nairobi. When asked about the future of Symbian in the next 2-3 years, he talked about the new version of Symbian being introduced (Belle). He says, “That’s the pattern you should expect to see, there are still NEW DEVICES AND OPERATING SYSTEM UPGRADES AHEAD”. Ooh, Nokia Carla and Nokia Donna. Elop is not talking about Symbian OS updates being Belle, he says that is the pattern we should expect to see (more of essentially). So more to come after Belle. And I don’t think he’s talking about OS updates for WP because he separates the WP answer in the video.
Nokia Lumia is expected in Kenya in the months and quarters ahead. Nokia does have a staggered approach, which like the video of Elop in the middle east, means that only when the full Lumia experience (Language support, marketplace) is available will it be launched.
by kemibaro |
Cheers Esbo for the tip!
Category: Nokia, Symbian, Video, Windows Phone
About the Author (Author Profile)
Hey, thanks for reading my post. My name is Jay and I'm a medical student at the University of Manchester. When I can, I blog here at mynokiablog.com and tweet now and again @jaymontano. We also have a twitter and facebook accounts @mynokiablog and facebook.com/MyNokiaBlog. Contact us at tips(@)mynokiablog.com or email me directly on jay[at]mynokiablog.comSubscribe
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- Stephen Elop conferma nuove versioni di Symbian | February 18, 2012
ms never much concentrated on mobile phone business,they are now taking it seriously windows appolo will be a good example of it.there are rumors and talks about that google is launching android 5.0 jellybean os early inorder to prevent any damage from appolo os.so that says how competition is taking windows seriously
For heavens sake meego and symbian is dead.once nokia will suceed with windows else die with windows those are the two option so accept it.
But don’t kill it by saying you killed it if you still need it to make sales number and you cant actually kill it.
Can you guys get this inside you brain please, nokia needs those sales number in 2012 and 2013 that current WP is not able to provide, if you declare something dead having nothing to show as an option people will move on to the other brand…
To be fair, they NEVER said its killed – in those words – they ALWAYS talked about a long transition period and continued support (already on Feb 11, 11, two weeks later in Barcelona as well). So, as always, its bit more nuanced than that. Sure, it should have been communicated better/differently. And sure, some in the market for phones and some carriers dropped Symbian right there and then as if it was already dead. And still, Symbian managed to sell 80+ million in 2011, despite this “kill order” – they need to hire an even better hit-man than Elop it seems to finally kill Symbian.
IMHO though, a much bigger problem than the announcement itself was (sadly, still is) the lackluster phone portfolio and delay in getting Symbian to look at least Android-ish from couple of generations ago… N8 was announced in April 2010 for crying out loud, all others with the expection of the very much niche E7 being a bit meh, and only in August 2011 a new crop of devices emerged, still with the same old screen resolution, non-AF cameras (EDoF is arguable both ways of course), and “only” Belle.
Hopefully the 808 (or whatever) will spark a big niche (yes, niche but a fairly large niche) interest and it will sell well – I do worry about carrier support for it though, in many countries.
c’mon the platform is burning, every body knew exactly what he meant by that,
“we wont sell future N9 even if it is a sucess”, you can say that in 200 different ways , the way he chose to is the worse.
thing is, if they want to fade out simbian, they need to keep saying its great and its soo great we will keep maintaining it till 2016 at least (nothing different here right?)
if they wanted to kill meego and bring it to S40′s you dont say, we will kill it no mater what but rather say something like “I’m completely confident that the N9 will sell wonderfully we are trying to bring that experience to next billion users”
PLus you don’t say you wont sell it even if it a hit, makes people think for what team are you playing any way…
see I don’t think nokia or elop as been doing it all wrong just the communication part could not be more wrong and the only one benefiting from this is Microsoft.
Do you understand what I’m saying???
All I want is that nokia to stop force feeding the Lumias to its users, but rather opt for a more fade in fade out strategy specially from the communication perspective, putting more devices side by side from all its OS’s giving the users a choice. And if WP is as great as some suggest it is nokia clients wont mind switching to it if they are not forced 2.
I see your point but there was a huge challenge for Elop : to make the WP switching successful. And in some sort, meego was the main treat for WP in Nokia.
Just consider : if they had said from the begining that meego would sell by 100M a year (that is the top third of S40 sales) where do you think the hype would have been ?
Unfortunately Nokia needed WP for gaining traction in US as a brand -which is crucial for the “ecosystem” war. Without the WP strategy, I thing that engadget/The Verge reviews of N9 would have been terrible (like 4/10).
So, without being very glad of this new strategy, I think this was the best possible. And better, the execution is just near perfect. Just look at how well the interviews of Elop are considered by the main tech blogs in US.
So now, as a customer, I just hope for some discrepancies between the speech and reality (I mean mid-range linux based devices). I’m fine with Lumia so long I can buy a phone not needing windows 7 and Zune to be used (and being able to use openvpn on my phone …).
Yes, I do see what you mean and he should probably said something like that on Meego. However, again to be fair and accurate: at least I have not seen any direct quote from him saying “we wont sell future N9 even if it is a sucess” or even any direct quote to the same effect. [Btw, for what little its worth, I _have_ seen direct quotes and video interviews where he says the N9 is great product and he is exited about its launch.] The story in Helsingin Sanomat was paraphrased by the journalist (and I am sorry to say the quality of HS journalism has plummeted even faster than Symbian
) AND even then the paraphrasing was “there is no return to Meego as the main smartphone platform”.
Note the difference?
Yes, he should learn to select his words better and to NEVER EVER trust a journalist to accurate represent what you say, especially in the headers. That’s a general rule I also have learned with my limited interaction with the media and “journalists”. I am sure he knows that though and needs to just learn to plant the messages that even after the “journalists” twisting come out right. But there is a limit to what extent you can manage that – even the story of this story, I suspect it was the “journalist” who started the discussion on the burning platform (if there even was any, “journalists” are free to post edit in whatever framework story they want and they think will get the headline and readers and spread; after all they are free and the “4th power”
), and would not be at all surprised if Elop never used that terminology during the whole interview. And then it becomes “the truth” that Elop has now said that they are no longer in/on/off/under/on the sided what ever of the burning platform. 
I agree and i refuse to belive that elop did not knew the implication of all of its actions, thats the thing, I firmly believe he knew, I might give him the credit of not knowing how bad It would be for Nokia sales, but I’m 100% sure all that as been said as been with the intention to be interpreted in the way it as been.
IN a way rueaka post above says that, “Unfortunately Nokia needed WP for gaining traction in US as a brand -which is crucial for the “ecosystem” war.” I belive elop saw it this way, but WP is all but a small player and its losing market share in the US as well.
plus this strategy killed NOKIA big markets for simbian, were WP simply as no presence, and in some cases cant even have a presence like China.
I am not sure I understand 100% what you mean, but I _personally_ do not think he is intentionally trying to harm Nokia to e.g. prepare it for takeover by MS. I don’t think you were implying that either though.
Yes, of course he foresaw that the transition would be difficult and has said as much, many many times. No, he probably did not foresee quite how difficult it might be and is turning out to be.
Actually, I am fairly sure great majority of the 80m Symbian phones that were sold in 2011 were sold in Nokia’s big Symbian markets (China, India etc.). So I think it is inaccurate to say it killed the big markets completely and in fact some of them are still doing fairly ok – Nokia is IIRC still the leading smarthphone brand in China. Going down – yes.
Also, I don’t understand why WP could not have presence in China. It WILL have a precense in China. How big a presence and how well they can make WP work with Chinese language and writing remains to be seen (in some areas it might actually work quite well as – AFAIK – you can say a lot with a few signs, which could work well e.g. on the tiles).
WP cant have a present in china in its Current UI form,Metro UI depends on Latin typography the gets slightly sliced hinting there are more screens/space, this does not work with chinese characters, and most of the ui is realy very minimalistic and typography based that works mostly with the concept of “long” rectangles of text.
They say its fixed with Apollo not sure how they did that dough. Still its not ready for 2012 so symbian will keep on selling less and less and nokia cant replace those sales with WP ones.
Yes, I am aware of how WP hints at more things being there on the panorama views. I would think that can be overcome. They already have a Japanese version and without knowing enough about the two languages (I do know both have a horizontal way of writing as well) I would still the challenges are similar and, apparently, can be overcome. So, I would not think it absolutely cannot have presence in China even in the current UI format. As I said how well that will work – I am not sure.
We have seen pre-orders for some Chinese vendors sites already and rumors of CDMA version Lumia 800 for China in testing. IIRC Elop has talked about H1 2012 for China. So perhaps it will land in China before Apollo.
http://www.itworld.com/243051/nokia-launching-windows-phone-7-handsets-china-first-half-2012
As far as I know, China is the #1 selling market for the N9, so im sure Nokia will want to roll out the Lumia there ASP. but really it is not ready.
Yes, probably it is the biggest market for the N9 as well. It’s the biggest smartphone market in the world, after all, by volume.
How is WP not ready again? I mean of course its not ready tomorrow, but as I have discussed, it seems like it will be rolled out by mid-year and I am sure it will have Chinese support and Chinese as the UI language at that point – unless something has/will change.
so much for china being so poor that sales will be such a disaster there huh.
Android was launched as a preemptive strike against Windows Phone in the first place
I don’t think that MS is taking mobile phone business serous now, WP isn’t a huge project. Things in WP is very “hardcoded”, not flexible at all. Only support for one CPU and one resolution.
What MS has done is to wait for mobiles to get hardware powerful enough to run windows.
Having two operating systems that can compete with the best isn’t possible. MS cant support as much hardware as linux does because it is open source. It is impossible.
they need to bring device running on symbian belle to lower price point.say the price of galaxy y,inorder to keep there sales and os floating.and which they are not doing.
thought that was cee-lo green from behind
RE zorg.
http://mynokiablog.com/2012/02/17/videos-elop-in-africa-nokia-no-longer-on-burning-platform-new-upgrades-ahead-for-symbian-carla-donna/comment-page-1/#comment-518889
It seems you choose not to see when I defend Symbian or MeeGo, just WP. I ‘defend’ essentially Nokia and when I see it’s required.
The repetitive argument stuff, there are many times when the topic of the post doesn’t even call for a discussion on Elop/Lumia yet somehow it springs up for someone to attack. Why? I should remove such comments to remove flamewars but that also goes against the non censoring thing.
If you notice, go to N9/Symbian related posts. Where are the Lumia crowd there attacking? Conversely go to the Lumia posts. See the constant negativity. I think someone justified attacking in Lumia posts and Lumia people not attacking MeeGo because MeeGo isn’t critical to Nokia’s success or something like that. I can sort of see where they’re coming from, though I would like it if people at least tried to stay on topic and be constructive.
As to taking sides? The side I take is with Nokia. They have chosen to go with Lumia and for me, I do agree with the strategy they have chosen (though not precisely the execution). There are too many other places in this blog that I have ranted about Nokia’s inability to take advantage of opportunities and it might appear that even with Lumia they’re going to do the same old Nokia thing again and destroy any hope of come back.
Taking this post as an example, Who is the first commenter to post something inflammatory?
There are many ways this discussion could have taken place. Assess perhaps the sourced articles rather than immediately dismissing anything because the title has Elop in it.
Burning platform – what is the burning platform, why are nokia NOT on it? Where are they now? What of Carla and Donna as possible updates? Hopeful signs for Symbian? Nope. It was just ‘Elop is a liar/Elop is talking shit’ and then the discussion went crap.
“If you notice, go to N9/Symbian related posts. Where are the Lumia crowd there attacking? ” DO you want a long list or does a short examples will do?
Go ahead. Apologies if I’m not able to see that.
BTW, attacking vs criticising. I’m all for people criticising WP, if there is a constructive comment behind it rather than ‘it sucks’.
http://mynokiablog.com/2012/01/28/weekend-watch-n9-apps-afinatron-guitar-tuner-free-at-nokia-store/
quick search…. look at the top comment and next…
There are many many other examples, it doesn’t make right in any case, but I don’t see it on sided as you do.
PLus most of the negative WP comments go on the general news sections that have to do with nokia global strategy, were those comments make sense.
To the repeating arguments things. You know wen we see something is wrong there are 3 periods in time were one as the urge to intervene… Frist we say, “don’t go that way because something bad will happen”, then smithing bad happens, and we say “told you so, now get back on track!”, and in the end “we say if you had listen to me you would not be dead now”, we are in phase 2 there is no hope that nokia will listen but at least people can vent out what they feel about it.
Hey you struck me as an honest guy and as such you will agree that the entire thing from the point of view that matters as been going terribly bad. right?
Our only disagreement would be that, you think we should give more time to the WP only strategy, and I think we should give more time to a all OS strategy without changing one inch in the direction..(killing symbian slowly rebranding meego as meltemi) wile presenting all of them as brilliant future platforms aimed at different target groups.
is that really trolling in your books? o.0
Not sure where my reply disappeared to, but the link you have pasted says there first that they like the app, but are just expressing disappointment that there aren’t enough apps in their opinion to do an app a day.
I believe I already responded to the sentiment of that post anyway.
Actually all we need is 365 apps. N9 has that. But what we would obviously want is a variety of GOOD apps to share. Another issue for me is time. I think I will be changing the format to just sharing news about N9 apps and demoing when I’m free as I do not have time to do N9 apps at the level to Lumia apps (a commitment I had made prior to knowing I might have N9. Even blogging itself, I don’t really have time for).
If you’ll check other comments by said poster, they suggest I alternate and spend equal time for N9 and Lumia.
Anyway, I think this point of the discussion has run its course, no?
I do understand why you can find this frustrating, but I am sure that you can see why some people are bothered by Nokia’s current strategy.
I don’t think anyone would have any problems if Nokia (/Elop) just would have not made Symbian’s death announcement, let MeeGo either succeed or fail at its own and taken Android along WP.
And I know you have heard that a million times, but for many, including me, this is still a very painful issue.
“And I know you have heard that a million times, but for many, including me, this is still a very painful issue.”
This. Jay, you should realize that a LOT of people have a close emotional attachment with Nokia, for various reasons.
Some, like me, are Finns and it is an issue of our pride and something we consider our own being wrenched from us.
For others it ranges from Nokia being their first phone/smartphone and fond memories of what was to being a stockholder and being personally affected. Others still are fans of Linux and the death of Maemo saddens them.
I can see you complaining about how we are hurting your and the “WP camp” feelings.
You do not seem to understand that you are hurting OUR feelings by being insensitive in how you structure your articles and how you take the WP side in comment section.
Fair enough, you have your views and it’s fine. But don’t expect sensitivity from your opponents when it is lacking from you.
Hey, we did discuss this before. I am not sure if it was with you or with someone else. But I did say I completely understand your point of view.
Symbian was the initiative by the top manufacturers in mobile to thwart Microsoft’s advances in mobile and boy did they do that. Nokia maintained their independency and propelled Symbian to great heights. Competition came in and knocked Symbian down. There was a debate as to whether that trend could have continued or could have been fixed. I understand how hard it must be that after so much work, the Symbian line is not given the chance to fully execute the MeeGo transition. This is all made worse by the fact that the cause of it is the ‘enemy’ , MS’s mobile OS somehow taking the centre stage at Nokia like a virus and taking down Nokia with them.
I apologise if I am hurting your feelings by what you feel is me being insensitive in how I structure my articles.
Let me reiterate also from my side. I am writing on a Nokia blog. I am pro Nokia. I like Symbian, MeeGo, Maemo AND WP. With Nokia focusing on WP there are a lot of Lumia related articles. When readers send in things on the N9/Symbian I jump on that quicker because there’s less of that news available and just too much WP (sometimes I just pool in WP stories together). When I portray a positive Lumia post, it is to be positive about Nokia. It isn’t to knock Symbian or Maemo/MeeGo. I have in comments mentioned things I had enjoyed in Lumia over Symbian and vice versa. Criticisms I have mentioned about Symbian is not because i am taking sides. I have always had certain criticisms for Symbian, plenty of which was alleviated by going Maemo.The fact that I still criticise certain things in Symbian is because they had not been addressed.
What would you suggest I do?
Thanks for a fair-worded reply.
I’ll say this:
Symbian was never “knocked down” by the competition as still in Q4 2010 it outsold ALL of its competitors.
Symbian was knocked down by Elop, personally and single-handedly, in Feb 11 2011 and subsequent months.
Whether the trend would have continued, is irrelevant, because:
a) a year after the WP transition, Symbian is STILL the bread and butter of Nokia and selling in the dozens of millions annually
b) WP, a year after its announcement and hundreds of millions of needed cash reserves pumped into its advertising campaigns, STILL is not selling well
This means that had Nokia not announced the death of Symbian OR even announced a WP transition, things would have been BETTER for Nokia overall than after a year of Elop mismanagement, because:
a) Symbian sales would not have been harmed by the Feb 11 memo and would still be on the rise (as they were in Q4 2010!)
b) Maemo and the N9 would have been given a fair chance at success in major European countries and India and would have sold much more than in the other, arguably poorer, markets
c) Nokia’s image would have remained stable and untainted by the Feb 11 memo and “admission” of Symbian’s “inadequacy”
d) Symbian updates, Anna and especially Belle, would have been out sooner because none of the disruptive employee lay offs and transitions to Accenture would have taken place
e) last but not least, Nokia would not have lost 3.9 BILLION euro in profits and assets due to Elop’s mismanagement.
“What would you suggest I do?”
Fair enough, I do not suggest you start criticizing Nokia like I do. It’s alright to keep up a positive image (to an extent, not glossing over obvious failures) in your articles. What I do object to is when you attack me and others for being critical. That’s something that doesn’t sit well with people because there ARE many things we can and should be critical of.
In short, I was sort of hoping that your blog would act as a way of feedback to Nokia and raise awareness among readers of what happens at Nokia and where it is heading and why. Not a direct recital of what Elop said or what some positive analyst predicted about Lumia sales (which in fact turned out to be false).
All that said, I do commend you on your selection of Nokia news and rumours and what not. There’s no other site quite like this one and this is why I keep reading it. That in itself should be a compliment to you, that people with such a different mindset still find your articles an interesting read.
Apologies, the term knock down is not the intended one. More dent. I’m not sure if Nokia’s sales would have continued to grow in Q1 2011. From Feb 11 did folks suddenly stop buying Symbian handsets?
Symbian sales were increasing – that’s excellent, but the rate of growth and market share was not. Something was eating away at it, and possibly folks at Nokia felt it would not be too long before it ate into their own sales. The numbers are available on Gartner and Nokia even or whatnot that showed whilst increasing in sales, nokia’s market share continued to decline. Why? Well that’s not too worrying. It’s still quite a feat to sell 28M continuously. However, the pace of the competition seemed faster than Nokia. That even with 28M record, iPhone amazingly (and I’m still astonished) sold 37M, with Samsung not too far back on 35M. The rates at which they grew was possibly seen at Nokia as not the rate Nokia could grow or even sustain.
I am absolutely annoyed at Nokia that in 2011 they dare bring out such a portfolio. It’s like they repeated the n97 failings by not making sure the hardware helped the software (symbian) which was still in transition. But then, someone alluded – Symbian’s strong points is being good value. Such higher end hardware might have priced it wrong. What worries me most is how long these devices take to develop and how on earth they ever thought it would be sufficient for competing in 2011 at the level they used to in previous years.
Something the media seems to miss however is that whilst Nokia is declining, it is still doing a good job selling this many Symbian phones. The install base is still the biggest, and something that perhaps Nokia should have talked about more (though there is significant fragmentation to perhaps nullify such an advantage).
As for Anna being out sooner without Feb 11, that would be hard to guarantee as fact. We know Symbian^3/N8 release was delayed from April all the way to October because Vanjoki wanted to ensure the experience was right, but then needed to issue an update they said would appear in Q4 2010 that later was mentioned for early 2011. In reality, what Vanjoki should have shown us in 2010 was Belle. It is not too much of an expectation. Nokia and those brilliant Finns have already in 2009 shown that they totally understand what a beautiful interface looks like in Maemo 5. What was the reason that Symbian could not have the same modern aesthetics and user experience in 2010? 6000 devs working on it, but seemingly bottlenecked by managers that didn’t know how to handle them. I remember from 2008 relatively quite a few rants about Nokia which was settled when Maemo 5 came out and then they decided to regress and with S^3 make people think (and possible even Elop) that that was the best Nokia could do.
If we are talking about events that should have been reversed, it’s possibly the point at which Nokia decided not to go ahead with pure maemo and try out with MeeGo. They could have released plenty more devices and they would have seen people enjoying Nokia hardware with Nokia software. We would not have needed to fire OPK and got Elop in.
I have oversimplified that. i’d love to discuss more but have work to do now. Might check back on it later. Thank you for your final comments about the blog. i had not really thought about it being as a feedback to Nokia but I guess it could be (and that Agora post indicated it might be).
I’ll try to finish up my work this weekend to start on some WP/Nokia critical posts.
That’s a very sweeping generalization you’re doing here.
1.
The articles that generate 200+ comments and flamewars have most of the time very little to do with Lumia itself and everything to do with a) how great Elop’s new strategy is, b) how well Lumia is selling, when it obviously isn’t and c) how WP is tramping on Symbian/Maemo/whatever.
Take this article for example? What does it say? It says “Nokia no longer on burning platform” and it is about Elop and the Africa launch. There’s little mentioned on Lumia except for the launch and a lot on how Elop says things are fine – WHEN THEY OBVIOUSLY AREN’T.
So, it is a blatant lie from Elop that gets lambasted here. Do you have something against this reaction to it? If so, what is it and why?
2.
Like noki said, there are numerous examples of “WP trolls” attacking Symbian, Maemo, yet you choose not to notice. Comments like “Symbian sucks and needs to be buried”, “Meego is turd”, etc etc. Search the archives and you can see plenty.
3.
About this particular article. If you are referring to my comment:
a) it was not the first, even though it appears second in the list
b) it is not inflammatory, but a statement of fact
I do not understand why you take issue when people criticize Elop. Do you mean to say that anything Nokia management does, regardless of whether it makes sense or even if harmful to the company, you’ll always support it? That’s quite asinine. Secondly, I would understand if Elop was your blood relation, but to my knowledge he is not. So rather than getting up in flames to defend your idol, just don’t read such comments if they upset you for some reason.
There is no way Elop can be commended for his conduct or mismanagement, by ANY standards. Pretending otherwise flies in the face of common sense and puts your loyalties in a questionable light.
4.
“Burning platform – what is the burning platform, why are nokia NOT on it? Where are they now? What of Carla and Donna as possible updates? Hopeful signs for Symbian? Nope. It was just ‘Elop is a liar/Elop is talking shit’ and then the discussion went crap.”
These kinds of questions should be asked from Elop. Not from your commenters.
To a sensible observer, it has been evident for a year and more now, what the burning platform crap was all about. Why avoid a pointed discussion? Like I said in my previous reply, there are myriad people affected by Elop and they hate him. I hate him. So please don’t expect us to be all fancy schmancy about the subject.
I have been getting ‘Symbian sucks’ comments since the n97 from iPhone trolls. How can you detach what camp is saying what?
Have you specifically seen the likes of Mark saying Symbian sucks? We can go into specifics of what sucks but I myself have corrected folks who say Symbian sucked then and now. It has issues, many fixed in Belle, though still plenty more fixed. You asked me to look for comments saying “Symbian sucks”. I did. I found posts saying Symbian sucked in their opinion, but they explained why. They didn’t just come out with things like “Symbian sucks” adding nothing to the conversation.
There are 24 items saying Symbian sucks, half of them are actually not even saying it but commenting on how other people have supposedly said it.
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/03/09/new-leaked-image-of-nokia-e6-not-as-ugly-as-first-pic-s3-with-four-homescreens/comment-page-2/#comment-54194
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/03/16/nokia-c7-coming-to-canada-with-pr2-0-more-symbian-handsets-for-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-56719
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/05/06/idc-smartphone-sales-up-by-80-nokia-still-growing/comment-page-1/#comment-82056
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/05/23/windows-phone-mango-preview-event-on-tuesday-a-summary/comment-page-1/#comment-90695
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/05/31/symbian-anna-coming-q3/comment-page-3/#comment-94445
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/06/27/36-of-engadget-readers-want-a-nokia-smartphone-meegowp-73-of-mnb-readers-want-n9-43-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-111601
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/07/06/n950-hands-on-nokia-please-take-my-money/comment-page-1/#comment-117079
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/07/21/nokia-q2-2011-results-today/comment-page-1/#comment-126849
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/08/01/nokia-500-is-officially-launched-rocking-1ghz/comment-page-1/#comment-134094
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/08/10/video-nokia-symbian-anna-videos-for-n8-e7-c7-and-c6-01/comment-page-1/#comment-141366
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/08/16/over-9-million-daily-downloads-on-ovi-store-approx-3-29byear-rate/comment-page-1/#comment-145848
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/08/16/nokia-finally-going-at-mwc-in-a-big-way-next-year/comment-page-1/#comment-146535
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/11/02/nokia-coming-back-to-usa-on-multiple-carriers-7m-video-with-stephen-elop-rimacquisition/comment-page-1/#comment-253177
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/12/04/video-awesome-looking-cloudgps-0-6-4-demoed-on-nokia-n9-free-at-nokia-store/comment-page-1/#comment-343426
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/12/21/nokia-conversations-says-belle-is-coming-soon-n8-shipping-with-belle-confirms-february-2012-for-existing-devices/comment-page-1/#comment-396346
http://mynokiablog.com/2012/01/04/nokias-2012-flagship-what-should-it-have/comment-page-2/#comment-434492
http://mynokiablog.com/2012/02/17/videos-elop-in-africa-nokia-no-longer-on-burning-platform-new-upgrades-ahead-for-symbian-carla-donna/comment-page-2/#comment-519178
Do you know what’s weird? The person who said “Symbian sucks” the most…IS YOU. You always saying how people are just complaining that Symbian sucks. Look which ones actually are stating that Symbian sucks as an attack. You can also freely google the site if you want as maybe the site is having issues searching.
In this article, NO, I am not actually referring to your comment. You should also know by now that I am the last person to go supporting everything the company does. I have whinged and moaned so much during the N97 days about the activities Nokia was doing. Why do you always try to taint my character by painting Elop as my idol thus saying I am just blindly going with what he says? How many times have people agreed with you that Feb 11 was mismanaged?
In THIS particular thread, the one that does discuss the burning platform, it is clearly on topic to discuss Elop. But why does it need to trickle through every other post that’s just about WP?
As for the LIE that Nokia is no longer on the burning platform, why do you indicate that No longer on the burning platform is a good thing? I say in the post, where are we? The point I’m making is that the future of nokia is now not on the arms of Symbian, but now on WP – which i might add, is no more certain but possibly less so. We are at the stage of being in the icy see. There might be some lights of hope but it’s still too far, much too far to judge it as a strategy that WILL work. It could, but that’s hope.
The arguments are getting circular. It seems every time I discuss anything with you they end up no where. Odd because it’s not the case with anyone else.
“Do you know what’s weird? The person who said “Symbian sucks” the most…IS YOU.”
Hahaha. Very funny.
Of the list of 24 links you posted here, precisely TWO were from me (where I was quoting WP trolls), and..
one was from YOU!
Come on. Enough with exaggeration now.
Also, please direct me to the search engine you used for it, because I can’t seem to find it here? The search at the top of the page yields nothing relevant to either your search criteria or any others. I’m sure I can find many similar “sentiments” using a few other searchwords.
“Why do you always try to taint my character by painting Elop as my idol thus saying I am just blindly going with what he says?”
Nobody is tainting you. You always rush in to the defense of Elop. The inferences are obvious. If he
is not your idol, stop defending him. Case closed.
“The point I’m making is that the future of nokia is now not on the arms of Symbian, but now on WP – which i might add, is no more certain but possibly less so.”
This is what I and others disagree with you on. The future of Nokia is much more “certain” with WP – a speedy demise.
You’ve been told this a thousand times now: WE DO NOT OBJECT TO WP ON NOKIA, BUT WE OBJECT TO WP AT THE COST OF SYMBIAN AND MAEMO.
Is that so hard to understand? What language do I have to spell it out for you in, swahili?
Now I don’t know if you’re actually tolling (writing things just to have a reaction) You SAY that I said Symbian sucks.
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/12/04/video-awesome-looking-cloudgps-0-6-4-demoed-on-nokia-n9-free-at-nokia-store/comment-page-1/#comment-343417
Did you read what I said? I was joking around and saying that it is actually everything that isn’t Symbian that sucked. Why would you try to actively twist what I have said? Why would you lie like that?
The links there aren’t the 24 links. Look at the date and how far back they go. I wasn’t able to find recent posts plainly calling out Symbian sucks but from those, your name had appeared because you were accusing others of saying that phrase, which now we will both appear more in because we’re discussing that.
“I guess, we should settle on the fact that anything WP or non N9/Symbian sucks. This way we can save ourselves a lot of time typing the same things over and over again.”
Also again you are making very odd connections. Why are you equating defending someone as that person being my idol? If I just simply agree with certain things (not all) why do they have to be my idol? Why do you present it as such a simple either or situation? I always rush to his defence do I? Really? Well if that’s how you see it.
I know we have been told a thousand times. Some absolutely object to having WP at all. Some just object to Maemo and Symbian being sidelined. ideally Nokia would have them all. What point are you trying to make? What change can I do to reverse such an action? What productive outcome will such discussion result in?
About your last sentence, I sense you might be feeling some anger because you would be so crass as to now paint me as some idiot who you must spell things out, but in a language I obviously don’t understand.
Forgive me, I am trying to understand your position but it’s difficult when you seem to just attack for the sake of attacking, even so far as twisting things that I have said.
I don’t twist things. You posted a selection of links. I didn’t read through them all, I just noted the comment that the link referred to. Two were mine, one was yours. That doesn’t say much. I could manually go through the archives and pick those “Symbian sucks” comments out, but I think it’s pointless wrangling at this stage.
You know and I know that flamewars aren’t one-sided and there’s enough of mudflinging on both sides. So let’s just leave it at that. Just don’t blame one side of the conflict only.
“What point are you trying to make?”
The point I’m making is the one I’ve made all along. The destruction of Symbian and Maemo is not good for Nokia no matter how you look at it.
Symbian is Nokia’s bread and butter. Take that away, and Nokia is dead. What Elop has been doing was destroying Symbian development and alienating its developer and fan base. -> Direct result is Nokia dying a painful death due to loss of sales and profit.
WHICH WE ARE ALREADY WITNESSING.
It’s as if I’m talking to a wall here. I’ve yet to see you admit that a year of Elop’s mismanagement has left Nokia in a pile of refuse.
Reports for Q2, Q3 and Q4 are proof enough.
Yet you keep talking of a “necrotic arm” and how it had to be removed.
What other conclusion can I arrive at than you not being able to understand plain English text when it looks you in straight in the face?
“About your last sentence, I sense you might be feeling some anger because you would be so crass as to now paint me as some idiot who you must spell things out, but in a language I obviously don’t understand.”
You would be too if the other side would pretend not to understand a word you are saying no matter how many times your arguments are repeated.
We’ve been through similar conversations at least half a dozen times already haven’t we?
Yet it all comes back to square one with you. And you are surprised..
dr_zorg, BTW I think you missed my last post on this topic in the Burning Symbian Blog thread. Here it is:
http://mynokiablog.com/2012/02/14/mnb-reader-stories-the-burning-symbian-blog/comment-page-2/#comment-517753
@dr_zorg
““Neither do I, but I do know they did some considering…”
How do you know that? You only assume they did, you do not KNOW.”
Look, I have made it clear from the get-go that I can see multiple possibilities to what happened, including the theory that Elop is a trojan and that they cut the Qt strategy for no good reason. (I do maintain, though, that there was good reason to transition away from Symbian.) It is possible. I don’t think it is likely, but more importantly I don’t think it is the only theory. It would be quite a bit more pleasant to have this conversation if you made similar concenssions to me, yet you insist you will under no circumstances even entertain the possibility that Nokia was on a downward spiral – all based on one quarterly report. There are many things we don’t know. I admit that. Yet to continue insisting for some reason you know what the evidence is or can be.
No, I do not know what calculations CFO Timo Ihamuotila did when talked to us on Capital Markets Day. It is possible he made all the numbers up and their whole strategy is based on a Microsoft conspiracy. Personally, knowing what finance people are like, I doubt that though. What I find more likely is that they made a series of assessments internally, based on on the things available to them internally, and came to the strategy conclusions that they did.
It is possible their plans and projections were wrong or incompetent, and certainly it is possible they were sugarcoated, but overall I find it more likely that they did make such plans and projections, than that they invented everything just to pitch us a Microsoft takeover. Especially considering that the Nokia board and most of the old executive team we in on the plan and approved of it. Why on Earth would they go along with a faked Microsoft takeover, I mean these are long-time Nokia people?
“Note the word “assume”. What were those justifications again? I would like you to quote them and explain where they are based on fact and not conjecture.”
The justifications in public have been explained many times over. You choose not to accept them, and that is fine. I have no doubt there is quite a bit more analysis done at Nokia internally that is not public, or the whole of which is not public and thus is not available to us. For some reason you are stuck in the notion that unless Nokia can prove themselves in the court of public opinion, then there is no evidence and the strategy was chosen without any evidence to support it.
I maintain the opinion that even if the public “evidence” were lacking (I don’t think it necessarily is but that’s beside the point), there is certainly good reason to find it likely that the Nokia management internally has more information and “evidence” about things than the public, and had when they made the decision to pursue the new strategy. Is that an unreasonable likelyhood that the management would be privy to more information than the public?
“Yes they can. I send you back to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and such other, publicly traded companies that base their whole existence on numbers pulled out of their arse. What makes Nokia so particularly unique that a set of managers would not be bribed to do just the same, if they were so inclined?”
Certainly the financial market has seen its share of frauds. Yes, to clarify, certainly fraud is possible. (That is not what I meant, though, I meant publicly traded companies when they offer their numbers and stuff like that have a protocol to follow. Of course criminals can fake things and break rules.) However, naming a possibility of fraud, while possible, is quite a stretch from the adamant position that you have taken. It is also quite possible that instead there is no fraud and Nokia based their decision on honest internal assessments and internal analysis.
What you are saying, though, is that there could never be any internal analysis or assessments that could have validly resulted in their decision, no other test that could prove the need for action, other than the quarterly fiscals. That is quite a statement to make. Apparently you feel the management should only look at quarterly numbers and not base their decisions on any of the other inputs such as market analysis or whatever qualitative business information that they have about the state of their business and that of the competition. Wow.
“Why don’t we? This analysis and data should be public, should it not?”
Why on Earth should Nokia’s internal business analysis and data be public? Confidentiality is one of the major cornerstones of how business works. It is up to the management – and trading rules – to what they choose to disclose. For example, Apple is a master of secercy for good reasons.
“Not only that, you yourself do not know anything about the existence of the said “secret” data yet you claim it exists. Paradox?”
Not really, no. I don’t think the assumption that Nokia has private, secret internal data about it’s business beyond the public fiscal reports is a paradox. Do you? Really?
“What were they saying? I have not heard any evidence of Symbian/Maemo teams saying it wouldn’t be feasible to continue with the Qt integration. Have you? If so, put it out here.”
You are nitpicking my list of Nokia internal information, I was listing things that Nokia management had access to that we don’t – and that won’t show in fiscal report numbers. My point was this: Nokia had access to whatever the technical teams were saying, all of them, access to information we do not have. It was one more example where Nokia management had more information beyond the fiscal reports, that we do not have. It is thus possible this information supported their strategy change, even if the fiscal report would not show such data directly. You can not critique them just based on one fiscal report, because there is a multitude of other private data they would have had access to. That was my point.
It doesn’t mean you can’t critique them, of course. You can make other overall assessments that may be just as valid. But using just one quarterly fiscal report does not give a total picture of Nokia’s business at the end of 2010. Heck, the fiscal report even says: “It should be noted that certain statements herein which are not historical facts are forward-looking statements, including, without limitation, those regarding: A) the timing of the deliveries of our products and services and their combinations; B) our ability to develop, implement and commercialize new technologies, products and services and their combinations; C) expectations regarding market developments and structural changes; D) expectations and targets regarding our industry volumes, market share, prices, net sales and margins of products and services and their combinations; E) expectations and targets regarding our operational priorities and results of operations; F) the outcome of pending and threatened litigation; G) expectations regarding the successful completion of acquisitions or restructurings on a timely basis and our ability to achieve the financial and operational targets set in connection with any such acquisition or restructuring; and H) statements preceded by “believe,” “expect,” “anticipate,” “foresee,” “target,” “estimate,” “designed,” “plans,” “will” or similar expressions. These statements are based on management’s best assumptions and beliefs in light of the information currently available to it.”
As for your question, of course we only have anecdotal data points here, all the Nokia management interviews (others than Elop too) and whatever commentary Nokia engineers have made online and elsewhere. Certainly there are opposing points of view too there (and certainly valid opposing points), but I have very little reason to doubt the poor situation of Symbian. And then there is the wealth of knowledge, experience and opinion on Symbian in the technology comminity. You, of course, will ignore whatever I say and stick to your guns without moving an inch, it seems.
“A quarterly report is real, solid numbers. Do you agree? What other real, solid numbers besides the report do you have to back up your claims? The answer: None. Only conjecture.”
For one, I do have the dramatic Symbian marketshare trend to back up the fact that the whole industry moved away from it, leaving only Nokia with an already dwindling smartphone marketshare in 2010. If not Nokia, at least let’s agree Symbian was on a downward spiral, right? Because most of my argument is, Symbian had to go – rest is up for debate. You don’t even have to agree that Symbian had to go, of course, but agree that Symbian as a platform was on a downward spiral, yes?
“You are confusing market share with actual sales. A “downward spiral” would entail a loss of sales. Just like we have now, after a year of Elop’s mismanagement.”
Now, this is a better argument to make. But is also begs the questions: Why is Nokia not growing at the pace or above the pace of the market? Would it not need to do so to maintain leadership? What will result if Nokia grows but continues to grow significantly slower than the market? Is this a long-term negative trend? If so, what would it take to fix this trend for the long-term? I am pretty sure Nokia management asked similar questions themselves. But sure, it is one argument to make that marketshare means nothing if you still have positive sales. I doubt it would be what Nokia is trying to achieve, though. I am inclined to believe they are aiming higher, even if we are to disagree with the methods at which they are attempting with (which is hope of short-term losses for long-term gains).
“In Q4 2010 there was a GROWTH of sales. Do you understand that an exploding smartphone market cannot and does not retain the same marketshare numbers for participants?”
I agree with both statements. I disagree with the conclusions made from them, though. I don’t think the Q4/2010 numbers are proof of a healthy Symbian, nor do I think Nokia’s shrinking marketshare is something to just gloss over and let happen. I do agree, though, that there were several options to try and reverse the marketshare trend, including trying with MeeGo.
“But as long as there is healthy growth in sales and profits, there is no downward spiral. Period.”
The question is: Yes, there was growth, but was it healthy? Numbers won’t say that. They just say it is growth and how much. The numbers won’t say if it’s sustainable or improveable growth. There was much pent up demand for Symbian^3 from loyal Nokia customers due to the lackluster products of previous years and all the delays and the overall market was recovering, improving sales of all kinds of devices for Q4/2010. None of this proves Symbian was going to continue being competetive. In fact, the market response later to Symbian^3 left much to be desired and I can’t blame people for that.
Personally I think there were other reasons to call Nokia being on a downward spiral, but I guess on much of that we should agree to disagree.
“Elop was a non-entity and a nobody for Nokia prior to Sept. 2010.”
Well, actually he was heading (amongst other things) at Microsoft the development of Qt Office for Nokia’s Symbian devices – the one we are now finally seeing trickling to Nokia Belle. So at least Nokia people knew Stephen Elop and had dealt with him directly in Nokia’s past Microsoft deals.
“Hmm, I don’t quite understand your position.”
Ditto.
“On the one hand you are demanding proofs of success and saying that the Q4 report (a factual piece of evidence) is not enough.”
Actually, I doubt I was demanding proof of success – at least that was not my intention if I did. If I did, forget it. More important: I was trying to get you to entertain the thought that not all was well at Nokia – and that there might well be valid internal information that lead the management to that conclusion. Even if we don’t know all of it in public. So for one: That management could, just think about that word could, have made the right call based on sound information even if we don’t have that information. It is possible that such evidence existed inside Nokia.
And secondly, overall I was hoping you’d agree that Nokia was having a hard time already when Stephen Elop came on board, as even with public knowledge that much is clear to me and I’d say anyone who has followed Nokia closely for years. I don’t ask for proof to either way from you, I was just trying to get a feel if there is any shades of gray in your opinion. But now you seem convinced that Nokia was growing healthily and thus the old strategy was working, no problems whatsoever, so I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that.
“On the other hand you are offering vague inferences to some secret and undisclosed “tests” neither you nor anybody else knows about.”
This I have to disagree with. I was trying to go over, at a very generic business level, why the management of a company has more factual information to base their decisions on than the public with only a fiscal report in their hand. You say only the fiscal report is evidence upon which company altering decisions can be made. That is your argument. My argument is, again at a very generic level applying to any company, that company managements have access to all sorts of private information that they add to the publicly known information – and then make decisions.
I hope you are not seriously suggesting Nokia does not have internal analysis and communication that produces private information (or that they shouldn’t use it unless they make it public), but in fact, I have to conclude that you are suggesting that. Wow.
“You demand proof beyond a factual Q4 report and in return offer only hearsay and conjecture.”
Actually you are the one demanding proof, when I am saying we are not necessarily entitled or have access to all the relevant proof that may – or may not – have been available to Nokia’s management at the time of their decision-making. Thus, we can not conclude with any certainty that they made an evidenceless decision “to amputate”. It is certainly possible they did it without prover information, but it is also very possible they did a very thorough diagnosis internally and had valid reason.
“Do you see the problem with this setup?”
I see a problem with your setup. You say that becuse you can not see the evidence in the public domain, that it is impossible for it to have existed for Nokia management when they made the call. I find that notion quite preposterous actually.
“I am a Nokia shareholder. Was I offered evidence of these “tests” or other facts that would support a drastic change in company policy? No, I was not. Were you? If so, out with it.”
We are both shareholders in a publicly traded company, which usually means we have no access to information beyond what is available in public. Nokia is certainly under no obligation to provide us with such information, beyond that they are probably even prohibited due to insider trading rules from disclosing many things to individual shareholders – at least not those on an insider trading list.
But yes, I think Nokia has offered many plausible explanations as to why they chose their new strategy. Some elements are debateable, sure, but I am satisfied that at least dropping Symbian was justified. No, they have not provided me with bullet-proof evidence of such, but then the fiscal report is not bullet-proof evidence of the contrary either. Company mangement is a multi-faceted thing, as is any strategy. I agree the new strategy is risky, but staying with the old strategy was risky too. Time will tell.
As for Symbian, I base my experience there more on the technical side of my understanding and experiences, than on market information or company statements. I know I mostly quoted latter in the blog above to keep it readable for all, but the rest I base on personal experience and insights I have gathered as professional in the software industry. Symbian is a mess. Even if Stephen Elop himself would make a U turn and praise Symbian, would no amount of his interviews – or Steve Jobs raising from the grave with his reality distortion – lead me to believe all is well with Symbian. All was not well with Symbian. That much is clear to me.
“That was a wall of text there, but nothing factual to support your premise except what we already know – and that’s all conjecture based on the “burning platforms” memo and the verbal diarrhea that we have got from Elop during the past year. Nothing more nothing less.”
To quote Stephen Elop, I am simply going to choose to respectfully disagree on multiple fronts.
I’ve read your reply, thank you. That thread was getting so filled up though that I decided not to reply to it there and then.
I’ll read the links you’ve posted and will come up with a longer reply today or tomorrow. Watch this space
I will.
@dr_zorg
“The destruction of Symbian and Maemo is not good for Nokia no matter how you look at it.”
Arguable. That is not necessarily true. Their destruction might be good for Nokia’s long-term outlook, at a cost of short-term pain. When Steve Jobs returned to create a healthier Apple, he caused a lot of havoc and destroyed many product-lines in the process. Sometimes it is necessary to refocus the company.
“Symbian is Nokia’s bread and butter. Take that away, and Nokia is dead.”
Again, not necessarily true, I’d even go as far as say it is less likely true than anything you say here. Arguable feature phones are the bread and butter too, but more importantly just taking away Symbian won’t kill Nokia as long as it adapts.
“Direct result is Nokia dying a painful death due to loss of sales and profit.”
No, Nokia has had loss of sales and profit for a number of reasons (they also lost some feature-phone position due to lateness of dual-SIM). It is also arguable how much February 11th caused and how much Symbian was already loosing on its own. Some arguments to that effect here:
Symbian^3 resurgence myth. How Nokia Q4 2010 results show smartphone sales collapse well in progress
http://www.staska.net/2011/07/25/symbian3-resurgence-myth-how-nokia-q4-2010-results-show-smartphone-sales-collapse-well-in-progress/
Why did Nokia Symbian smartphone sales crash this year? Infographic
http://www.unwiredview.com/2011/07/22/why-did-nokia-symbian-smartphone-sales-crash-this-year-infographic/
More importantly: None of this means Nokia is dying. Of course it might die, but it nowhere near proven it is dying. I’d respect you more if you’d drop such definite statements.
“It’s as if I’m talking to a wall here. I’ve yet to see you admit that a year of Elop’s mismanagement has left Nokia in a pile of refuse.”
We are talking to a wall when talking to you. You don’t give an inch in, we can’t possibly be that wrong that you couldn’t see ANY merit in what we are saying, just for the sake of considering all the options. You continue to discuss proof, even when we are offering plausible arguments to the contrary. Me or Jay are not saying things are exactly the way we say they are, but we are saying they MIGHT BE. You continue parroting your proof and refuse to believe in any other likelyhoods or possibilities, when clearly there are things that could go many ways and are arguable. It would be perfectly fine to disagree on our personal analysis, and discuss the pros and cons, but when you keep saying things are this and this way without any other options it is not only incredibly frustrating but also in my opinion not an objective approach to the issue at hand.
Even the label “year of Elop’s mismanagement” is not necessarily true at all. It might be the tactical retreat Nokia needed after the mess OPK left. You believe it is mismanagement, but what if it ends up taking Nokia to new heights in the future? If all that dramatic change actually would enable that, where going the old ways would not? It is possible at least. You can argue that different things are more likely, sure, this is a debatable thing, but instead you continue spouting your facts when short-term facts are no way to judge a long-term future. Even in military theory there is the concept of strategic or tactical retreat. Nokia has retreated and repositioned itself. Time will tell if that is just Nokia’s Dunkirk retreat or their Stalingrad. You seem to know it is their Stalingrad. I’d say, there is no way we can know. It might well be their Dunkirk. They’ll come back with the Americans later and win.
But like you said a few days ago, you will never believe Nokia was on a downward spiral, so I guess you will never believe any of the steps Stephen Elop took were aiming for a better future, because you actually feel OPK left things in a good place. Instead, I think OPK left Nokia on the beaches of Dunkirk and Elop had the good sense to jump into the sea and swim to safety instead of continuing to fight in France from a desprate position.
“Reports for Q2, Q3 and Q4 are proof enough.”
Arguable. First, they don’t tell anything about the future Nokia might be able to create after it emerges from this situation in a more streamlined form with a revolutionized internal corporate culture. Second, it is quite unknown how much Symbian might have crashed on its own. There are many arguments to say Symbian was on a downward spiral. Which you believe not in, I know, but still the argumenst are there. The fiscal reports are not conclusive proof of anything other than the results of those quartals. Reasons are debateable, but more importantly the future impact is very much at question.
“About your last sentence, I sense you might be feeling some anger because you would be so crass” I agree it was a bit to harsh, dough I understand his frustration as its is mine, mostly because no one seams to give a straight answer to that, specially wen its seams so obvious that nokia still needs Symbian and Meego sales to survive, and yet its continually communicated that WP is the only way, having a devastating impact on the sales Nokia needs to do.
“WE DO NOT OBJECT TO WP ON NOKIA, BUT WE OBJECT TO WP AT THE COST OF SYMBIAN AND MAEMO.”
Cant agree more, no one so far as given a reasonable explanation how come we need to kill them, and worse publicly kill them wen in reality NOKIA needs them to survive as WP does not SELL, sorry I repeat WP DOES NOT SELL, at the rate Symbian sales numbers are going down nokia will need to sell 50 million WP in 2012 to keep on float I honestly have a real hard time believing that. this Quarter NOKIA as to sell a bare minimum of 3-4 million Lumias. in Q2 10 M we should know pretty soon.
I have said before in a post that I am not a fan of Nokia artificially doing the best work on WP by sidelining Symbian/Maemo. it’s that sort of artificial limitations that got nokia in this mess in the first place – how Maemo was not allowed to grow against the giant that was Symbian inside Nokia. If something is strong and has great potential in Nokia let them grow. Let them all grow. Apparently folks in charge at Nokia seem to think they don’t seem to have that luxury any more. I don’t know if that’s true.
i don’t speak for everyone but I also do not want Symbian sales to disappear so abruptly in the face of Lumia which has not even settled any roots yet. I’m not sure if the memo was ever supposed to be a public one, but the way the announcement was subsequently announced could have been executed much better. There are multiple factors to the decrease in sales in Symbian, I don’t think it is fair (as some have pointed out) to equate it all to that announcement.
@noki
“no one so far as given a reasonable explanation how come we need to kill them”
I disagree, Nokia has given a reasonable reason, basically that continuing to improve Symbian in the long term is not viable (I happen to agree a lot on that) and of the three remaining choices (MeeGo, Android or Windows Phone), they felt they’d have the best chance at a competitive ecosystem – and place within that ecosystem – with Windows Phone. That is perfectly reasonable, although debateable of course. There are perfectly valid arguments for other paths as well, of course.
As for why not trying will all of them, Nokia feels that would distract from their focus and cost too much money. Symbian especially was requiring such huge manpower that they could not just keep it as a hobby. It is a perferctly reasonable business decision. Tight focus is a very well thought of business strategy in many cases. Often too much diversification is seen as bad use of resources. This is debateable of course, there are many valid opinions on this.
Debateable? Sure. But unreasonable? No. In my opinion.
“NOKIA needs them to survive as WP does not SELL, sorry I repeat WP DOES NOT SELL, at the rate Symbian sales numbers are going down nokia will need to sell 50 million WP in 2012 to keep on float”
I’d say: bullshit. Nokia does not need to sell 50 million Lumias this year to survive. They are very likely to be able to weather any storm with their cash, lessened personnel costs, Microsoft’s potential hundreds of millions of marketing support money and the health of their feature phone business while they rebuild their smartphones for hoped-for long-term successes they thought they’d not be able to get with Symbian and MeeGo. Of course they may go under, but I find that the unlikely scenario. I think it is okay to fear Nokia going under if Lumia’s won’t sell enough, but quite another to state it will be so.
“I honestly have a real hard time believing that. this Quarter NOKIA as to sell a bare minimum of 3-4 million Lumias. in Q2 10 M we should know pretty soon.”
I think it is very possible Nokia won’t sell 50 million Lumias this year, but also that in 2013 they very well may sell far more Lumias than they would have sold Symbian and MeeGo had they stuck to that strategy. It is possible.
“I disagree, Nokia has given a reasonable reason, basically that continuing to improve Symbian in the long term is not viable” see thats the big problem Nokia still as to improve Symbian it will have to do so for a few more years, simply because it needs its sales numbers.
The pois I make is that changing zero on the current strategy Nokia could have made the fade sales line of simbian much more compatible with WP introduction, Nokia could have done the exact same thing it did in practical terms but sell a lot more terminals… On e example the N9/N950 it would have pratcly zero to launch it it could even launch Lumia 850 based on it.
and wen people asked if it was the last meego it could simply say, “No we are working on a new meego based OS that will bring the amazing N9 to a much broader range of consumers” and also announce a new terminal with that.
Any of this would have cost nothing to Nokia, in fact its what NOKIA is doing any way, but the results would be completely different.
“I’d say: bullshit.” not realy Nokia has allocated cash reserves that do not cover its deubt, refinancing its deubt is becoming more an more expensive for nokia, as its credit rate as been drooping.
Plus strategically if nokia drops behind the Chinese manufactures ZTE and Huawei in sales numbers it becomes irrelevant the smatphone market and even Microsoft will stop caring about NOKIA.
Microsoft probably can’t, contractually, just stop caring about Nokia.
But, of course, I agree there probably would have been a better way communicating the Symbian transition. I don’t how much it could have changed Symbian sales, and could it have hurt Lumia sales, but it is at least arguable that it could have been done better. I agree with that.
As for Nokia being on the brink, I have to disagree there. Of course anything is possible, but I don’t think it is likely that Symbian fading quickly with Lumia still ramping up slow will kill Nokia. I’d wager that a takeover would be even likelier risk.
For me a takeover is also the most likely event, the IP portfolio of Nokia makes it desirable for acquisition and disassembly.
Think the most probable candidate for that is Microsoft, IT wold make perfect sense for Microsoft, specially as it could start the PC game on OEM’s in the mobile area. (explaining to them that the license fees on its software with a discount are even less than the intellectual ones they have to pay Microsoft).
Still it the end result From a Nokia Existence POV is similar.
Agree, although I must say I don’t think a takeover is necessarily very likely unless Lumia really seriously fails to gain traction. Possible, of course.
I guess a huge part of this debate comes down to personal view: Does one believe the Lumia strategy was necessary and does one believe it can succeed. Perspective changes significantly based on how one sees these.
@Janne I sincerely don’t see the need to publicly make a big splash about being only on wp ship. It’s great for Microsoft but makes no sence for NOKIA, (specially if in reality its not) again not saying nokia had to do anything significantly different from what it did.
But marketing wise its a disaster, with severe implications on sales numbers and the developer ecosystem it had.
I don’t believe that Nokia need to focus with WP only. Look at Samsung, they focus on Android, but development of Bada, Tizen, & WP phones keep going on.
It is because Nokia afraid WP & MeeGo will eat each other, or there is a special deal with MS.
Going WP + MeeGo will not consume lots of Nokia’s resource. WP development is done by MS, MeeGo has community.
http://mynokiablog.com/2012/02/17/videos-elop-in-africa-nokia-no-longer-on-burning-platform-new-upgrades-ahead-for-symbian-carla-donna/comment-page-1/#comment-518916
Thanks, yes, totally agree Janne. There are some really wonderful conversations here at times. Lots of things to learn, not just in content but the way to conduct yourself and it’s amazing how brilliantly some like those you mention and yourself handle things. It’s not easy to try to be patient and understanding on the internet. Self restraint, keeping on topic, staying in the threads that you enjoy and feel a constructive comment may be added.
I also really agree with your point in DISCUSSING with people on topics you disagree with. Discussions is GREAT. It’s nice to know what exactly the other person is thinking, the perspective by which they might see the same situation. Seeing where others are coming from, its easier to have a constructive conversation.
I’ve also found it useful in some regards to try to be open minded to plenty of things we disagree with. Though over time I have become somewhat jaded at times and less patient that I should be.
Sometimes I might think someone is wrong until I get a glimpse of how they see things, why they see things like that. I might still disagree, or I might change my mind, but either way, it’s good to know another perspective.
Relating all this to Nokia, I think there were several stories published on the blogosphere of such internal miscommunication leading Nokia to where they are now. i.e. arrogant management not listening to ‘underlings’ because they know better and shouldn’t be told how to do their job. I think Stefan of intomobile wrote about something like this recently on his experience working at Nokia (and there are plenty more instances from other ex Nokians.
“If you notice, go to N9/Symbian related posts. Where are the Lumia crowd there attacking?”
And why should they attack when Elop is doing everything he can to kill N9/Symbian and destroy Nokia in the process, meanwhile WP and Lumia has his unconstrained support no matter what? Wanna bet how it would look if Elop was fired yesterday and the whole strategy completely reversed?
The point Zorg made was that WP people are instigators in the flaming. I just said to take a look and find such examples. Now you suggest that if there isn’t any it’s because they don’t need to because of yet another Elop attack on Nokia?
What I would like is for folks who comment to think possibly about whether what they will add will be constructive and at the very least on topic. e.g. posts on N9 app just talking about N9 app and its development. Post on N8 camera mod, just talking about Nokia, imaging etc. Post on Belle to talk about Belle. On topic, constructive comments/feedback making healthy discussions.
@nn
But even if what you say may be true, why should anyone attack anyone here at MyNokiaBlog.com? Stephen Elop is not posting here as far as we can tell? Why not just discuss post-relevant things with civility, instead of the repetitive spam-fest that seems to manifest itself in many comment threads.
I know many people are disheartened. I understand. I lament the loss of Maemo, although not that of Symbian. I know many disagree and think this is the road to hell paved with bad intentions to boot. But please people translate that to civil, good discussions and not “Elop sucks” type of posts.
some are just ranging out of frustrations about Nokias state now.had their been success with wp then there would be less rant, but as of now it send Nokia is still in a mess if not worse than before
But is it in a mess? Sure, it is selling less smartphones than a year ago, but after that painful transition today what it does have is a product-line receiving growing praise – and which will only get better over the year as new devices and Windows 8 are released. That, at least, is a very very good thing after many gloomy half a decade of mediocre Symbian reviews. Sure, the N9 received praise too and played an important part in this renaissance. Most importantly Nokia’s smartphone image is no longer tied to that of Symbian.
BTW: I’m not trying to say Nokia doesn’t face a huge uphill climb with massive risks. But product-wise, looking at Lumias and Ashas I just can’t really think of them as the mess they used to be.
ranging = ranting
sends = seems
swype kasi eh
@Jay,
Sorry, I’m involved in the “flamewar”. But yeah, for me, the problem is uncertainity. Nokia’s statement with WP as primary smartphone OS, is unclear. It can have 2 meanings :
1. It can mean : we still have Maemo as secondary OS, we’ll keep supporting, updating, & providing new hardware. If that, I’ll keep silent, or even support WP comrades, even I don’t buy WP.
2. It can also mean : sorry, we can’t let MeeGo & Symbian disturb our primary OS, we will shut them down, may be we can give them another chance after WP is large enough. If that, I’ll sell my wife’s C6-01, give my 700 for her, & I buy Xperia Ray. I’ll also stop writing on your blog, except Nokia bring back Maemo lives again.
Something is hidden on Nokia-MS deal, I don’t respect keeping secret, I respect honesty.
I don’t think anything is hidden in that regard. I think I’ve seen pretty much all of the Nokia presentations during and since February 11th and dozens of interviews from Elop and other Nokia management… I think it is very clear that Symbian is faded out with some level of support until 2016 and MeeGo will definitely end at N9. Feature phones will continue with Series 40 plus other internal Nokia efforts (e.g. Meltemi/Smarterphone).
Nothing hidden about this, in my opinion. So, no, they will not continue MeeGo as a secondary OS and Symbian only for a while. Of course the hope of many is that this may change, that they’d consider a Maemo 7+ device in some form down the road (a beefed up Meltemi device?) but I’d say this is purely daydreaming at this time. Nokia have been I think pretty clear about their strategy and why they are pursuing it, agree or disagree with those reasons as you may.
Nokia seems wanting WP be successful, but afraid of losing Symbian & MeeGo fans. Giving them uncertain statement is coward action. I hate living with uncertain future, give me black or white, but not grey.
P.S., IMO, casual & ordinary Nokia buyers had fled in 2010-2011. Those who still buy Nokia smartphones in 2011 are Symbian & Maemo hardliners. Tempting them to WP is extremely difficult, impossible for some. Nokia will likely lose them if going WP only strategy.
muppet statement one year late
@janne
N8 is laggy? Agree, my wife’s C6-01 feels very laggy when is compared to my 700. But my 700 is capable to challenge Xperia Ray with Android Gingerbread.
When you found a phone is laggy, don’t jump blame the OS, check the hardware first, you are comparing 680 mhz arm 11 to 1+ ghz arm cortex, & 256 mb ram vs 512+.
It is Nokia’s stupidity, under estimate hardware factor. N97 sucks because only has 128 mb ram.
So elop was not to blame no?
and i totally AGREE that the 700 is so much better than my n8. WTH NOKIA. You should have released a ghz phone from DAY ONE.
and yeah i do feel nokia 700 can go toe to toe with any mid range android. But it does lose out on customizability and apps.
@Linukia
Wasn’t Symbian supposed to be the frugal one?
I agree, the 603/700/701 certainly is an improvement over the original Symbian^3 family of devices. I am personally holding out for the 808, so my experience with current Nokia Belle devices comes from toying around with a 701, but not much. Although, 700 is still running ARM11 – just clocked at 1 GHz.
http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/700/
The problem with Symbian is two-fold: the bloody inconsistency in the experience as well as the apparent trouble at Nokia in adopting contemporary hardware. Even with the current crop of Nokia Belle devices there are clear moments when it all lags, because even though some things may be quite fluid, there are others that are not – killing the overall experience. The second thing is, that even with the current Nokia Belle devices Nokia is still relying on anchient architectures for their Symbian devices. Here’s hoping they actually got dual-cores inside the 808, since I plan to get one for the camera.
If I am to compare Nokia Belle to the N900 and Maemo 5 which came out in 2009, or to the iPhone 4, which came out before Symbian^3 and isn’t actually sporting all that much higher clocked CPU (it is not 1 Ghz), the difference in overall fluidity in both compared to the N8 is staggering. Although the N900 is not super-fluid like Lumia, it is still a consistent experience and quite fluid. The iPhone of course is very fluid, although Lumia is even more so. Nokia Belle – like Symbian^3 PR 1.0 even – is at times quite fluid and then the next moment something kills that fluidity and the experience even if nothing is multitasked.
Clearly, Symbian would need pretty much a rewrite to get to become consistently fluid. We’ll see if Carla and Donna bring sufficient rewrites in this department. But then, the slowness and cost of all this change was one of my arguments why Symbian needs to go…
http://mynokiablog.com/2012/02/14/mnb-reader-stories-the-burning-symbian-blog/
im a symbian fan well the truth is it still sucks compared to android.i myself has used xperia arc and 701 ,but still xperia arc was much better device.the android experience is far better and consistent than belle on 701.also internet browser omg symbian sucks big time compared to android browser.
Symbian belle should have been better than anna or s^3 but it still very much behind android with ics update again android will leap much ahead of symbian.
Unfortunately I agree, manu. And one of the major problems in Symbian is the browser – in addition to the overall inconsistency of fluidity. I thought S^3 PR 1.0 browser was adequate at the time because a new browser was “just around the corner” (like good things often seem to be for Symbian), but after Anna and Belle I’ve pretty much given up on the hope that Carla or Donna might improve this significantly.
@arts
I said that because WP fans always blame Symbian in N97′s failure. Can WP run smoothly without lags in phone with 128 MB RAM??? Even tango needs 256 MB + with some restrictions..
Most of my friends who owe N97 weren’t complaining the software & apps, but they hate the hardware performance.
I have an N97 here as well, and although I am absolutely confident doubling the memory would have helped with some of the issues, let’s be perfectly honest: The Symbian S60v5 operating system is not competitive on any level other than the fact that price and Nokia name on certain cheap S60v5 models sold well and thus were decent products. Put 1 GHz and 1 GB in an N97 and while it may move better, it is still a clunky experience compared to what contemporary competition boasted, the iPhone 3GS, or even the N900.
I’m guessing most people who say things like if only N97 had had more memory don’t really have much experience in other smartphone platforms or have expectations deeply rooted in the Symbian domain and thus aren’t noticing what others notice. While I applaud Symbian for its many, many features it hasn’t been competitive in the fluidity department for a long time. Much of that has to do with the overall sorry state of it all, in my opinion. It is just hard and costly to try and transform the old dog to new tricks.
Better to move onto a new dog.
Fuck Elop if there is no N9 successor!
If you want to compare the quality of OS, you have to use the same hardware, otherwise the comparation is unfair, you compare apple to orange.
You can only say WP is better than S60v5 if WP can run smoothly in 434 MHz 128 MB RAM. I guess WP can’t run in that hardware. Beside that, the resistive touchscreen of N97 also need to be blamed.
Sorry, I don’t understand with your term : Fluid? Experience? How do you measure that?? I’ve ever touched 700, galaxy tab, ipad2, lumia 800, all of them has similar response time to my touch input.
Look, I have here also an 1st gen iPod touch from 2007 – that is basically a 1st gen iPhone without the GSM module. It has 128 MB RAM and a 400 MHz processor.
Let me tell you: It is fluid!
I also have here a N97 and X6 from 2009, that is two years later (!!!), latter which has S60v5 with a capacitive screen (makes no big difference in fluidity). Let me tell you, neither of them are fluid. They even have 33 MHz more than the iPod touch.
In fact, not even the Nokia N8 with better specs and more memory than the iPod touch is nowhere near as fluid as the 400 MHz/128 MB Apple product from 2007. Nokia, OTOH, had a quite fluid product out in 2009. It was the N900 Maemo 5. Symbian is the problem
Symbian just is not fluid by design. It has not been designed to maintain a 60 FPS. Put in 1 GHz and 1 GB into an X6 or N97 and it would still not be fluid. Add to this the fact that Symbian seems to be harder to get to work on modern hardware and you get a picture of the problem…
As for how do you measure fluidity: It is the speed, smoothness of the operation. I think it is pretty apparent.
There are more reasons why Nokia phone is not fluid. Nokia always designed hardware platforms with many options that are optionally used (cameras, leds, buttons, gps, compass, flash memory, etc). 5230, 5800, 5530, N97, C6… Through this platform design, Nokia was able to differentiate its products. Designing hardware in this manner is very difficult. “Development of new Symbian handset needs lots of resources” comes from this end I believe. Nokia simply made it that complex. Every product variation needs to be maintained and this eats a lot of resources. Is it fault of symbian? Arguably. It is Nokias product management and r&d technological strategy.
Nokia also never really understood user experience, quite opposite to Apple. Jobs understood user experience and fluidity, he put it into front of all other OS features. As we know Jobs established Pixar, he was clear what animation quality has to be reached on Apple products. Nokia simply ignored “user experience is priority”. Nokia removed GPUs from S60v3,v5 phones. First iPhone has GPU. Nokias counter strike N97 did not have it. It is difficult to make fluid effects without HW acceleration. There are many historical analogies (ZX Spectrum – C64, Atari ST – Amiga, PC SW rendering – PC HW Open GL Support).
From above it’s clear that I quite disagree that all is fault of Symbian. You mix Nokia phone with Symbian OS/S60 with Symbian OS. What makes Symbian phone bad user experience is mainly UI, applications and hardware platform it runs on.
From my view, S60 is the biggest failure in Nokia’s Symbian history. I’ve read that whole S60 is “spaghetti code”, written in 2001 till today, hard to maintain. It took long time to adopt S60 to touch and result was terrible. Symbian was Touch enabled since 1997. Psion PDA with Eikon UI that runs on 36MHz ARM responds better than S60V5 phones on 400MHz – no joking.
What could be if S60 would be dropped and S90 (Hildon UI) was used? We do not know. What we know is that Hildon UI is used in Maemo… S90 was used on Nokia 7710 – touch based, Symbian OS internet tablet, released 2004…
I think it is mainly Nokia’s fault where Symbian is today. Main damage happened with abandoning of S90 in 2008. One day I would really love to see someone to compare WP, Android and Symbian from _OS_ point of view not UI or how well it implements facebook.
Very good read these recent conversations.
So Hildon UI could have replaced clunky S60 UI, but instead of modern interface, Nokia said no?
I possibly didn’t grasp the magnitude of opportunity lost back in 2008 if that was the case. Where is the problem in the so called cruftyness in Symbian – is it Symbian itself or the UI? I think incognito tried to explain a while back about how fragmentation at Nokia let to more work being done to fix bugs than improve experience (or words to that effect), hence why so many devs were getting ‘little’ done.
There was a paradigm shift in terms of WHO was using smartphones. It didn’t seem too important to make them simple and fluid. I think I remember a discussion with Rafe and some Nokia people in Nokia World 2008 about making Nokia’s UI simpler. Anyone remember the multimedia key on the N95? That simplified S60 a bit but the rest of the UI was still rather confusing for non-geeks/newbies (we didn’t even mention things like ‘lag’ or ‘stability’ it was just an assumed thing that smartphones were slower to do certain things because they did more stuff).
@Janne, another factor possibly in why N97 could not be as fluid as iPhone (on top of what osg said) was possibly additional pixels to work with? They were the bees kness with that nHD display vs 320×480 :p. But still in 2009, user experience for Symbian touch did not seem to be Nokia’s biggest priority at all. The hardware was impressive, with the flipping, but when you got down to using it, it was uninspiring (not to mention the mountain of problems I had with mine). iPhone seemed to only increase resolution when they can do it properly and not have it affect user experience negatively, in contrast, it was something they used effectively to market their device (“retina display”)and when they were ahead in resolution, they made sure everyone else knew about it.
@Jay:
Sure, N97 had more pixels to work with, but I guess the N8 no longer has that excuse considering it has less pixels and came out later than the iPhone 4.
As for the Symbian vs. Series 60 question, I agree, much of the problem probably lies at Nokia’s own user-interface level. But still, Symbian at its core is a pocket-computer OS from the 1990s with a very different C++ coding style due to memory frugality etc., so I would say the problem with Symbian keeping up is somewhat both the OS and the UI layer Nokia uses in S60/S^3.
“So Hildon UI could have replaced clunky S60 UI, but instead of modern interface, Nokia said no?”
YES – S90 was able to handle EVERYTHING what S60 could
YES – S90 was dropped by Nokia.
“S60 team” was pushing S60 as common Nokia UI platform (more resources and more money). It was internal competition where S60 was far the most used framework on mobile OS. On the other side, S90 was used on very low number of devices, therefore Nokia decided for S60 regardless how bad it was. It was strongest team with “political” influence inside Nokia.
Hildon/S90 was designed and programmed by ex-PSION developers (= they KNEW how Symbian works). It was developed in 18months and cost below 10m UKP.
S90 is living example how Symbian was intended to handle different UI layers. S90 is skinnable to extent that you can make it look like Windows, iOS, S80, S60… anything. It can be controlled by numerical keypad, QWERTY keyboard or stylus – depending on the device. It was not restricted to screen resolution (Nokia 7710 has 640×320). S90 was framework unifying development and simplifying S60, UIQ, MOAP UI mess.
Even today, Symbian is bloated with S60 legacy, Belle supports S60 apps even if new symbian strategy is QT – a completely different developmnent approach. I think keeping compatibility with S60 is slowing everything and at the end it is the end of very promising OS.
osg: Yes, I agree mostly – when I say Symbian in the context of Nokia, especially touch Symbian, I of course mean Symbian + Series 60 v5/Symbian^3.
Series 60 for its time, as a button OS, was arguably quite usable and very competitive. Nokia has a very nice and user-friendly paradigm for their basic phones ever since the 2110, and the original Series 60 continued much of this nice tradition. Sure, Series 60 was always more buggy than Series 30/40 and its predecessors, but is was for the time very user-friendly compared to e.g. Ericsson and the like.
But Apple revolutionized and owned the usable touch phone paradigm. Obviously, until the Lumia hit, that is.
Janne, IMO Microsoft should reevaluate the whole metro UI, I see what they are trying to do, bringing a unified Look and feel across all touch based MS driven devices, But i think its fundamentally wrong, and it is so because in a way its right. Right as in, it is a nice contemporary design, but unfortunately pass the phase of the initial fancy reaction its strikes us as an cold inhuman place. Also think that its what users see at the first encounter and the reason it as such a hard time selling.
What him saying as been circulating the design circles for some time, its a interesting problem from a UI/UX perspective, (that doing it right can be terrible wrong)
I personally much prefer it to the Apple “oh look it kinda looks like real leather with stiches to boot!” (or as some put, “Man Cave”
http://appadvice.com/appnn/2011/10/apple-needs-to-get-out-of-the-man-cave-with-its-ios-app-designs )and even the cutesy/almost cartoonish Android graphics (although Google is modernizing its look; some say taking a lot of cues from Metro).
MS\Nokia know that this battle for “leadership” of the phone market, has been won.
I reckon they are looking forward to the next thing, which is convergence of mobile\tablets\netbooks.
If they can crack running the same software across mobile\tablet\netbooks\ultrabooks\xbox, and with the same experience to the user, they will have won the next round.
We are going to need to see a leap in ARM power in the next few years to accomplish this though. But its doable.
Well, I can’t even agree on the keypad based S60… I don’t like it, it’s not consistent. For newbie, you can play hours with the phone and at 3am you still don’t know where was that configuration of email access point. Just example.
“But still, Symbian at its core is a pocket-computer OS from the 1990s with a very different C++ coding style due to memory frugality etc., so I would say the problem with Symbian keeping up is somewhat both the OS and the UI layer…”
Being more specific, Symbian (Epoc32) started in 1994, first release in 1997. It was designed as operating system for communicating mobile devices. Since first release there are core communication servers (ETEL, COMMS, etc. ). Memory efficiency and user data protection was key requirement for Symbian (unknown requirement for WindowsCE). Why would this be a disadvantage? You mentioned different C++ programming. Yes, it was different, same as Objective C is completely different on iOS. BTW, symbian released number of tools (PIPS) and tutorials about porting, I believe it is no big issue today to develop for Symbian.
Android, iOS, WebOS… based on desktop OS, Unix or Linux.
- iOS is based on BSD. So, how old iOS really is? BSD is dated to 1977, by the way.
- Linux – first release in 1991
All that lamenting that Symbian is old, outdated, pocket computer OS are just… baseless lamenting.
As I posted above. I would like to know what is missing in Symbian that disables Nokia to compete.
http://web.archive.org/web/20081114233829/http://www.symbian.com/files/rx/file8929.pdf
Whats missing was an organisation that understands how to run an OS.
Apple,Google,MS – have learned through many trials, how to run and maintain OS code.
Looks like Nokia found out the hard way.
fully agree with this point. I was trying to show that it’s not OS limitation and lack of technical features but rather Nokia’s mishandling of OS development regardless what OS it is (symbian, maemo, meego)
@dr_zorg, AFAIK, they say symbian dead, not symbian sucks
@janne, don’t underestimate MNB, I’m pretty sure it is monitored by Nokia, to collect fans’ opinions.
Good point, but there’s also a selection of related disparaging comments in the key “Symbian’s a turd” (just seen that one yesterday in some thread).
I’m sure there have been a fair share of disparaging comments about Symbian in places where it was completely unnecessary. Some deserved sure, but most unnecessary. I for one try not to dwell on such things in Symbian threads (that are not about its future or strategy).
what is this world war 3 ?symbian vs meego vs windowsphone.
Dear nokia/symbian/meego fans you have only two option once accept the windows phones from nokia or else leave to android or ios or whatever.
Complaining about elop, the admin of this blog and nokia is not gonna bring symbian and meego back.
Yea, this is sad story.
If my father divorce my mother to marry another woman, then I can’t accept him as my father anymore, I also can’t accept the new woman as my mother.
The story with Maemo is much worse. My father shot dead my mother, so he can live happily with his new wife. He also said to me “Son, if you can’t accept her as your new mother, then you must leave my home, it doesn’t matter for me, I can have more good children with my new wife”.
why is nokia developing meego as future disreptive technology or whatever if they are not gonna launch anymore meego devices?
because being in control of your destiny is very important. Look at bada/tizen for example.
Nokia won’t release anything called MeeGo ever again, of that I’m pretty sure. Guessing of course.
It wouldn’t even surprise me if they renamed MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan to Maemo 7 Harmattan in some upgrade.
However, I’m confident they are continuing their Linux efforts in both the “Next Billion” basic phone labs (Meltemi) and “Future Disruptions”.
Having a Linux-based own operating system is important for Nokia so that one day, when the next big thing comes, they can create and own it.
This round they feel they missed during OPK’s time, hence the collaboration with Microsoft. What happens in 5+ years time is different story.
Future Disruptions is preparing for that. Maemo is not dead in the labs, of that I’m pretty sure.
That’s the worse part they will release future meego devices, wont bee strictly meego but then again not even nokia harmattan meego is….
So yes despite what Elop says, there will be future meego/meltemy devices, they wont be smartphones or more importantly have quality grade smartphone hardware cause of the deal nokia signed with microsoft. But indeed there will be future maemo/meego/meltemi (the name is all the same) devices.
@janne
Ok, I think I can accept your argument about old iphone is fluid. But if you want to compare the OS performance of Lumia 800 vs N8, you need to replace the chipset of Lumia 800 to 680 MHz ARM11. Otherwise the comparison is unfair.
Other topic : I’m afraid we can have never ending debate, because we came from opposite camp. You always prefer better software, whoever the maker. For me, the maker matters, I always prefer softwares that developed by community, to those that developed by enterprise.
I always use LibreOffice even MS office is smoother. In case with Nokia, I keep choosing MeeGo / Maemo even WP is 1000x better.
You’re right. A slightly fairer example is a Samsung Omnia 7 1GHz, with Nokia 701 1GHz. Though there is also discrepancy in the differing chips. Well that’s just if we’re comparing fluidity. Belle on 1GHz is much nicer. It’s a shame Nokia didn’t opt for more powerful hardware from the beginning.
Well, I think comparison’s can be made with reasonable extrapolations… I’ve seen Symbian on so many hardware specs and the competition as well (I also have a 1 GHz LG Optimus 7 Windows Phone which is very fluid) that you kind of get a feel for it all. I think my comparisons are fair – and even more so if we compare pricepoints and not just specs.
But the N900 is much more consistently fluid that the N8 and it came out a year earlier with similar CPU specs and a lesser GPU than the N8. I’d say the reason for better fluidity is the Maemo 5 OS which doesn’t lag like Symbian does.
@janne
News about Symbian & MeeGo are dead came from rumors, analyst, or 3rd party. They could be WP / Android / Apple that want to lure Symbian fans.
Nokia’s statement isn’t as clear as that. Do you still remember ”…at least untill 2016”? The definition of ”franchise platform” is also unclear, each person could have different intepretation.
I don’t think that is true. Sure, the schedule can be different than 2016, but on February 11th during the Capital Markets Day presentation (the one that came a few hours after the Microsoft press conference) Nokia showed this graph where Symbian would be eventually completely replaced by Windows Phone. So I think that is out there, and not in any way unclear. Symbian will go away. Schedule is not set in stone, of course.
Linux-based OS efforts continue in the labs of course. I’d say there is some level of certainty that SOMETHING will come out. Perhaps a Meltemi phone, perhaps something bigger years down the road. I’m pretty convinced whatever it is, though, it will not be called MeeGo nor be compatible with those efforts… I’d wager it will continue the Maemo tradition, though.
Ah, that chart. I think the chart is over-optimistic, Nokia under-estimate anti-MS sentiment at some of Symbian fans.
to : my friend Danny,
Yea, I hate them too, if no N9 successor, but saying “fuck” & “suck” make us no better than them. We need to fight with more constructive way, keep loving N9, promote to friends, & support the MeeGo community. Even Nokia as parent abandon its child MeeGo, if MeeGo is an attractive child, he will find new parent soon.
to : Nokia
I need to tell you, I became your fans, because you were friendly to Linux community, with your Maemo. If you really abandon it, I’m sorry, I have to leave you.
“The very first Windows Phone that has come from Microsoft”
–W,T,F is the trojan talkin???!!!
dead or what devs and carriers are not intrested in symbian .which of course discourage people from buying symbian phone.