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MNB RG: Lumia overtakes Symbian in Finland (StatCounter)?

| August 18, 2012 | 100 Replies

This news was reported some time ago now, but I wasn’t ready to publish it as some sections of statcounter was still saying Symbian was still slightly ahead (e.g. month view vs week view vs day view). We’ve explained before and as Janne mentions below:

1) Finland – small population

2) Statcounter is all the phones, not current sales

3) Statcounter data is pretty much browser usage

It would not be such a difficult task, more something expected given that Symbian is on a decline with only the 808 as the new handset. What matters more is that Lumia is growing and that there is continued momentum.

Anyway, onto Janne’s article.

It is again time for the pointless, useless, but fun StatCounter watch! :) Finland is a small market and this means nothing, but here goes:

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Lumia (basically the only Windows Phone selling anything in Finland) has been sporadically overtaking Symbian in the daily and weekly measurements for some time now, but recently it passed Symbian in the montly averages as well. Lumia is now sitting at 12.62% and Symbian in 12.43%. Growth of almost one percentage point since July. The raise so far in August has not been as steep as in July, which saw the biggest raise for Lumia ever. We can actually see in the graph how the third month after new models (new Lumias were released in February and then in very late in May, practically meaning June, in Finland) is again the worst, the same happened in back in April.

I think looking very closely at weeklies and dailies the StatCounter, we can see a real slowdown of Lumia growth happening in August though, after the exceptionally strong growth in July. Is this the first sign of the new-devices-around-the-corner slowdown we all expect but haven’t witnessed yet, or just the market evening out the July miracle jump? I think it is possible it is the former and that we won’t see significant growth until WP8 devices are released, meaning that Lumia might coast around 12% until then. We’ll see.

Meanwhile, in the Europe stats, Windows Phone is up from 1.7% (in July) to 1.85%. In the U.S. Windows Phone is up from 1.21% to 1.24%. And in China up from 0.64% to 0.88%.

In related news, in Antarctica Symbian is down from 100% (in July) to 0%. There were no other contenders.

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Category: Nokia, Symbian, Windows Phone

About the Author ()

This account is for the stories readers from MNB submit to tips(at)mynokiablog(dot)com as ready to publish articles. Email tips(at)mynokiablog(dot)com if you have a Nokia related story you've written that you'd want to share with MNB's readers. For more information, check out http://mynokiablog.com/tips/ Tips/Guides/Rules for commenting: http://mynokiablog.com/2012/05/29/commenting-help-tips-guides-and-rules/
  • Nysi

    Why not give Janne permanent writer status? His posts are well explained and good quality.. After all, you need a poster from Finland with insights (many Nokia news come from finnish newspapers)

    • Janne

      Jay has offered many times, but I like to keep it informal so far. :)

      • Nysi

        Ah, come on, dont be so modest. :)
        It’s always fun to read some posts that are written tongue in cheek:
        “In related news, in Antarctica Symbian is down from 100% (in July) to 0%. There were no other contenders.” :D

        • Janne

          I think it is better for the atmosphere not to have me writing that regularly. :D

          I’m a simple guy who wants Nokia and other Finnish teams do well, up to and including Jolla. I have no need to be a blogger about it, just rooting for my home teams. That is best done as a normal commenter. :)

    • mee-gone

      i agree, Janne should be a permanent writer, he should write atleast 4-5 articles per week.

    • guest

      There should be a reason, like not wanting to reveal your identity that will give you away.. your motivation and all.

      • Janne

        My reason is simple: I don’t think me contributing here all the time would be good for MNB, it would just escalate into, well, this thread. It is not good nor is it worth my time and effort either. I think Jay does a far superior job than I ever could and has a calm voice well respected by most people here, so I’d rather support his writing via smaller contributions.

        If I wanted to spread some agenda, I would have jumped at the chance all those months ago and write here regularly. But I have no agenda to push, I’m just a Nokia user (and minor, minor, minor stock holder) like many people here. I do have *opinions*, but those are not an agenda. Just my views.

  • swain

    very funny article by Janne.

    Can anyone give some info on following point:

    “3) Statcounter data is pretty much browser usage”

    I never use the default browser. Does that mean my device is not counted as symbian ??

    • Janne

      I would expect them to count at least major 3rd party browsers, if the identification data makes it possible.

      • swain

        Right. They should count browsers like opera mobile or opera mini for symbian. Because now so many people are not using the symbian stock browser due to its excellent(?) quality :)

  • ElopMustDie

    we all know Janne is a M$ shill. he is Elop’s personal puppet with the only 2 missions: discredit symbian and praise wp. also if possible, cover Elop’s ass.’to have Janne write for this blog would mean the end of quality. i suggest all the die hard,open source fanatics and nutbags,scratch that, i mean tech connaiseurs and humanists that promote equality and good will, to stand up and act against the biggest M$ infiltrator spy.
    you are going down Janne, and i hope Nokia dies with you because it hired Elop and destroyed MeeGo and let go of Symbian and Meltemi. i hope Jolla will obliterate Nokia and then release great phones wich i will buy, and then there will be peace in the world

    • mee-gone

      symbian sucks, meego sucks and dont even talk about jolla, its a VAPORWARE, so you jolla paid shill better start myjollablog, no point is spewing hate on a nokia blog and threatening good guys like janne.

      • viipottaja

        I believe he was being sarcastic. At least one would hope so. :)

        • twig

          Too much coffee.

        • ElopMustDie

          you would say that people would pick up on the sarcasm
          ”i suggest all the die hard,open source fanatics and nutbags,scratch that, i mean tech connaiseurs and humanists that promote equality and good will”
          and
          ”i hope Jolla will obliterate Nokia and then release great phones wich i will buy, and then there will be peace in the world”
          but i guees it’s dificult to pay close attention when reading….
          ithink from now on i am going to strat trolling articles just to see the opensource nutbags jump around and pat eachother on the back for being in the same anti-nokia boat.should be fun.

          and don’t worry Janne, i love you. i hope either you or incognito will start writiing more. you guys have always detailed well constructed posts. i am however dissapointed cause in the last weeks there were more news about apps and jolla. the news about nokia stuff always seem to come up late or not at all. there is a post on wpcentral about nokia location. you would say that article would be posted here also, because it’s more nokia than anything jolla will ever do, but ti seems it’s too much to ask
          http://www.wpcentral.com/location-windows-phone-8-and-nokia-ultimate-where-platform

      • loser

        - – -

    • Janne

      Don’t worry, I have no plans to be a real regular writer here. :) Just ignore my few tips/writings if you wish.

      ps. I’m an old Maemo fan, not an MS fan.

      • http://www.twitter.com/KaizerAllen Kaizer Allen

        Ignore the haters, be a writer. That’s the best thing you can do to support Nokia (real-time news from Finland) and continue bringing these wonderful insights to the blog. Plus you can directly post a new article anytime you want, without having to wait for the admins to be online.

        • Janne

          I do appreciate the support, I do. However some thoughts:

          - It is sometimes forgotten, or not believed, that I actually have no desire to “support” any company or company manager here. Why do most people come to sites like this? Because they use or are interested in the related products and want to be a part of that user community. They have opinions and views and want to discuss them. I do wish to be a productive member (someone that gives something back to the community) of this MNB community, think I am, and am genuinely interested in the topics covered here, but I am not interested in supporting Nokia other than general rooting as a fan. So, I’m not trying to do anything for the benefit of Nokia (or Elop, or MS) here. While I agree writing could support and help them, supporting them is not my cause, nor will it ever become my cause. I am a Nokia user, a long-time Symbian user, a long-time fan of Maemo that likes WP too, a long-time user of Nokia in the future too hopefully, that is my only cause here.

          - The problem with blogging is that sometimes it becomes more about the blogger than the blog topic. I have no desire for things to become about me, I’d rather they be about the topics MNB covers. I think it happens with Ali here a lot too, and sometimes I have to wonder how productive such blogging can be. I am not saying this to discredit Ali or his contributions, simply observing the effects when this happens. It is counter productive for the community (us MNB visitors in this case) to have things blow up all the time. I have definitely been polarizing enough as a writer that man blog topic I contribute to seem to become more about me (in the discussion that follows) than about the topic itself. I think that is counter productive. I would rather see more balacing writing than polarizing writing, even if that means people like myself write less. I think it is to the merit of this blog that people like Jay are mostly seen as very balanced and fair – and that’s a good thing, because it keeps to the topic more and less on the writer.

          So, just as a personal opinion, mostly I’d prefer to read Jay, because he has the gravitas to make the topic about the topic and not about him. I know he has time constraints and this is unrealistic, but that’s my view right now. My style of writing (and opinions) would probably go better with better times, instead of these flammable times. I tend to flame things up, even if that is not my intention. :)

          • swain

            Hi Janne,
            I really appreciate your efforts in bringing many facts to public(MNB readers).
            There are few things due to which people like Jay and his work. He criticizes to any shortcomings and appreciate to all good features. The most important thing is “he do this for all OSes that includes Symbian, Windows Phone or Meego”.
            We all know that Symbian is yesterday and WP is tomorrow for Nokia. In spite of all it’s potential Symbian is going to die soon. It’s a cruel truth.
            But many people are there who love Symbian. I have been using Symbian since 8 years(all Nokias). It’s really painful to see such a glorious OS going down.
            But please don’t stop writing. Nobody really hate you. You are doing a nice job. It’s just a feeling that gives people a belief that selection and selector of WP has kicked Symbian out.

            • Janne

              Thank you for the comment, I do appreciate that and Jay’s contribution.

              Just to put my own views into perspective, I have owned and used Nokia Symbian devices for 11 years, from the first 9210 (and 7650 a year later) to the latest 808 PureView. I think there must have been some 20 of them (Symbian devices I owned). The first Nokia I ever used extensively was a Mobira Talkman, this was in the 1980s and the phone was the size of a few bricks.

              One of my favourite Nokias was the Nokia 2110 in 1990s and one of the coolest the Nokia 7110, first WAP phone, which had the “trigger” which I broke many times (incidentally it was also the first “Asha” of sorts, Series 40). So to anyone reading me, please, don’t for a minute think I don’t have a lot of personal history involved with using these products. I want good things for Nokia and I want to keep on using good (not bad) Nokia products.

              I think it has been cruel and painful to see Nokia go down. I’m just personally of the opinion that Symbian is a big reason Nokia did go down, because it caused Nokia’s blindness to see the potential in Maemo earlier on when it would have still mattered and Symbian was unsuitable (at least with Nokia’s skills) for the Android era. Symbian was good for Nokia for many years, but it should have been dropped for Maemo in the latter half of 2000′s.

              So yes, I do blame Symbian/Nokia’s Symbian religion a lot more than any mistakes made with regards to February 11th or after – and I’m sure the bitterness shows in my comments with regards to Symbian. However, I do agree February 11th was mismanaged too and caused an unnecessary rift in the Nokia community. This is just my personal view of course. I can respect that others have different views.

              • swain

                I agree.

              • yasu

                @Janne

                So yes, I do blame Symbian/Nokia’s Symbian religion a lot more than any mistakes made with regards to February 11th or after – and I’m sure the bitterness shows in my comments with regards to Symbian.

                But WP religion is OK.

                • Janne

                  WP *focus* is OK as long as it makes sense. If they continue with the focus beyond what makes sense, it becomes a religion and it too needs to go. There is nothing wrong with focus, as long as you know when to change it. Nokia’s focus on Symbian was fine for the first five years. It was only then that it became a problematic religion.

                  Personally, I’ll judge the viability of that focus after Q4/2012 results have come in for Nokia.

                  • swain

                    Janne, can you please confirm if as per “Helsingin Sanomat”, Nokia is also planning to launch its first tablet at 5th Sept event.
                    http://www.themobileindian.com/news/7993_Nokia-to-announce-WP-8-phone–tab-on-Sept-5th

                    • Janne

                      I did read HS’s article a couple of days ago where they said Nokia would release WP8 phones on that date. I don’t know if HS was just re-iterating or speculating on the info we all got online, or if they had better knowledge, but it is true they seemed certain about it.

                      As for the tablet part, I don’t remember reading such, but I can’t be sure because I don’t follow HS that closely.

                    • yasu

                      @Janne

                      No, we don’t really agree, because without Symbian religion there would never have been a WP focus.

                      Easily verifiable evidence please. As a mere mortal, I can’t peer into alternate realities.

                      Had Maemo been given its day to shine in time, there would have been no Elop and no WP, heck there may not even have been Android.

                      Same as above.

                      Hence whatever was sacrificed for WP, at least as much and more was sacrificed on the altar of Symbian.

                      So now your entire argument rests on hypothetical realities? Or should I say faith? Do you really expect it to fly?

                  • yasu

                    @Janne

                    WP *focus* is OK as long as it makes sense. If they continue with the focus beyond what makes sense, it becomes a religion and it too needs to go. There is nothing wrong with focus, as long as you know when to change it. Nokia’s focus on Symbian was fine for the first five years. It was only then that it became a problematic religion.

                    Why is it a Symbian religion as opposed to a WP focus? A simple question of time?

                    Much more has been sacrificed to WP than to Symbian, which actually carried its weight around, while the so called WP focus is threatening to drive Nokia to bankruptcy or acquisition.

                    • Janne

                      I’d call it a question of time and context.

                      It is a little remembered fact that Symbian was Nokia’s only smartphone platform for around five years (first half of the noughties). For that they ditched GEOS, which was Nokia’s first used smartphone plaftorm. I’d say that was a time of focus and clearly paid good “dividend” for Nokia. Symbian started out really small but grew into something really big.

                      Then came the Maemo developments, which could have lead to an iPhone-like revolution had Nokia really pursued them with the vigor and focus that Jobs and his teams pursued the iPhone. But much time was lost on turf-wars inside Nokia and Maemo was the looser. This was the time of the religion, when innovation was stifled by conservative bean-counting.

                      Today Nokia is again ditching their past smartphone platform and starting anew. I’d say right now they are focused. As long as they can maintain a healthy trajectory for Lumia, I’d say let them focus for a number of years. But at some point in the future, there needs to be a revolution again, not religion.

                    • yasu

                      @Janne

                      I’d call it a question of time and context(…)

                      So it’s a question of time, I don’t know what you mean by context.

                      Anyway, time is a commodity getting scarcer and scarcer for Nokia as I said “Much more has been sacrificed to WP than to Symbian, which actually carried its weight around, while the so called WP focus is threatening to drive Nokia to bankruptcy or acquisition.”

                      Frankly, from where I stand, your focus/religion dichotomy is just a byproduct of your biases regarding the two OSes.

                    • Janne

                      By context I mean the world within which the focus resides.

                      In 2001, when Nokia ditched GEOS for Symbian, arguably it was a good decision. Keeping both running side by side would have not been useful. This was focus.

                      In late 2000′s, Nokia should have moved their focus to Maemo, not because of the number of years passed, but because the context was changing: iPhone was coming and after in Android, which meant a revolution was brewing. Instead of re-focusing on Maemo, huge manpower efforts went into trying to modernize Symbian and Maemo was given scraps to live on. This is when it had become a religion.

                      I don’t question the fact that WP is Nokia’s focus now. Nor can I say if it was the best choice, or whether it will work out or not. Time will tell. But I do think it is too soon to call it a religion either, especially when the context (Windows 8) is moving into an ever-more favourable position for WP.

                      As for my biases, I think they are greatly exaggerated and too much polarized here. Maemo/MeeGo could have well worked too and I am sad they didn’t get the chance. But I like Windows Phone too, so I’m keeping an open mind. Pretty much the only rough biases I have with regards to this are pro-Nokia, pro-Finland and anti-Symbian-touch. The rest is much more even to me.

                    • yasu

                      (…)I don’t question the fact that WP is Nokia’s focus now. Nor can I say if it was the best choice, or whether it will work out or not. Time will tell. But I do think it is too soon to call it a religion either, especially when the context (Windows 8) is moving into an ever-more favourable position for WP.

                      Do you dispute the fact that more has been sacrificed to WP than to Symbian?

                      As for my biases, I think they are greatly exaggerated and too much polarized here. Maemo/MeeGo could have well worked too and I am sad they didn’t get the chance. But I like Windows Phone too, so I’m keeping an open mind. Pretty much the only rough biases I have with regards to this are pro-Nokia, pro-Finland and anti-Symbian-touch. The rest is much more even to me.

                      You said :
                      “But I like Windows Phone(…)” and “Pretty much the only rough biases I have with regards to this are pro-Nokia, pro-Finland and anti-Symbian-touch”

                      Isn’t that what I said? “Your focus/religion dichotomy is just a byproduct of your biases regarding the two OSes.”

                      Personally, I don’t care about your biases, nor should you care about mine. I just pointed out they were the source of your religion/focus dichotomy.

                    • Janne

                      I think you are still missing my point. Sticking to Symbian religiously when Maemo was needed, that was religion. But Symbian started out as a focus, in fact a very reasonable focus. Sacrificing GEOS for Symbian was a good move, although who would be sure at the time it would be.

                      I doubt many things – perhaps even actual religions! – start out as religions. They start out as one thing and then eventually evolve into another. Symbian started out as a focus and only later became a harmful religion. I think it is too soon to call Windows Phone a religion. It is a business focus. Whether or not it will become a religion one day is another question. I hope not.

                      That is my opinion based on both time and context. I can respect and acknowledge that you disagree, that is fine.

                      Do you dispute the fact that more has been sacrificed to WP than to Symbian?

                      Certainly a lot has been sacrificed to change Nokia to the new strategy. When Nokia became a mobile phones company, it sacrificed a lot of its other businesses as well. History will be the judge of the merits of the current strategy. It is too soon to tell. I do agree they failed with peacful transitioning away from Symbian, that much is clear. Was it a fatal failure? I hope note. I’ll comment after Q4 results.

                      Isn’t that what I said? “Your focus/religion dichotomy is just a byproduct of your biases regarding the two OSes.”

                      Perhaps, but you suggest a causality from “I see Symbian bad” => I see Symbian religion”, where I actually feel my anti-biases stem from the Symbian religion, not the other way around. “I see Symbian religion” => “Bad products, situation for Nokia (e.g. N97)” => “I am anti-Symbian-touch”.

                      So I am anti-Symbian-touch because of what I feel the religion related to it did to Nokia, not vice versa (think it a religion because I am anti-Symbian-touch). That is my view of it, anyway. I am not alone with the view. But I doubt there is anything I say that could make you believe me, but for what it’s worth.

                    • yasu

                      @Janne
                      You didn’t answer the question : Do you dispute the fact that more has been sacrificed to WP than to Symbian?

                      My point is much more has been sacrificed to WP than to Symbian. You deem one the latter a religion and the former a focus.

                      I only suggest that since more has been sacrificed to WP than Symbian and you deem Symbian a religion and WP a focus, your biases are talking.

                    • Janne

                      I guess I didn’t understand the question right. I thought comparing what was sacrificed for Symbian (GEOS) to what was sacrificed for WP (Symbian, MeeGo). Clearly a lot more had to be sacrificed this time.

                      But I guess you are asking about the sacrifice of sticking with Symbian vs. the sacrifice of going Windows Phone? That is a much harder question, because I do think sticking with Symbian for too long lead to all this. Had Maemo been done right, in time (perhaps out-iPhoning the iPhone itself) and no Symbian religion, there would have been no Elop, no Windows Phone, no nothing… So in that sense, sticking to Symbian cost them everything up to this point and then some.

                      But how to measure these things? I do agree a lot has been sacrificed for Windows Phone. They argue necessarily, I agree only partly with that (the move away from Symbian for example could have been done a lot better). On the other hand, sticking with Symbian too long and failing to capitalize the Maemo opportunity may have cost Nokia even more.

                    • yasu

                      @Janne

                      So we agree that more has been sacrificed to WP than Symbian?

                      Now that is established, don’t you see the cognitive dissonance engendered by calling Symbian a religion while calling WP (Plan B is to make plan A successful) and now relying on the *belief* that the networking effects of Windows 8 will save the day, a focus?

                      Seems that there are a lot of leaps of *faith* on the WP side of things, if you catch my drift.

                      BTW, it was supposed to be Meego on the high end, Symbian on the mid low end, not just sticking to Symbian.

                    • Janne

                      No, we don’t really agree, because without Symbian religion there would never have been a WP focus. Had Maemo been given its day to shine in time, there would have been no Elop and no WP, heck there may not even have been Android. Hence whatever was sacrificed for WP, at least as much and more was sacrificed on the altar of Symbian.

                    • Janne

                      Oh and my point was ditching Symbian on all levels. Years prior. Not just from 2011 forwards in the high-end, but from 2007 forwards in high and mid-end. Maemo could have out-iPhoned the iPhone to the market.

                    • Janne

                      Nokia was perfectly positioned to do with Maemo what Google eventually did with Android, but with years prior. Nokia could have invented the next big thing, and owned it, instead they stuck conservatively to patching Symbian and being wary of the “crazy Linux guys” within the organization. That was the Symbian religion – and that was the ultimate cost.

                      Nokia could have had the iPhone *and* the Android of the current smartphone world. That was Maemo. And it was ignored and downplayed for years because of the Symbian religion. Nokia was afraid investing in Maemo would endanger their Symbian cash-cow. And the came along iPhone. And then Android. And the rest is, as they say, history.

                      And that is my beef with Symbian. That we’d have an N97 and N900 released months apart and even then Nokia not really seeing the light. They could have had an “N900″ out there before the iPhone and made it their flagship. Instead we got N97 “flagship” two years after the iPhone and a mistreated N900 relegated to side duty. By 2009 Nokia could have had mid-range Maemos and by 2011 low-end Maemo’s and there’d be no cheap Android to speak of.

                    • yasu

                      @Janne.

                      Nokia was perfectly positioned to do with Maemo what Google eventually did with Android, but with years prior. Nokia could have invented the next big thing, and owned it, instead they stuck conservatively to patching Symbian and being wary of the “crazy Linux guys” within the organization. That was the Symbian religion – and that was the ultimate cost.

                      Nokia could have had the iPhone *and* the Android of the current smartphone world. That was Maemo. And it was ignored and downplayed for years because of the Symbian religion. Nokia was afraid investing in Maemo would endanger their Symbian cash-cow. And the came along iPhone. And then Android. And the rest is, as they say, history.

                      Android is “free” and comes with a services layer.

                      Would have Nokia licensed Maemo with a services layer? You don’t know. Would it have worked? You don’t know. All that is alternate reality.

                      I don’t care about your beef with Symbian and/or the related reasons for it.

                      All I know, is that Symbian, for whatever is faults was giving something back, and had something to show for it.

                      So far all WP is doing is consuming resources on the belief that some network effects will start in the future, now set in Q4 2012, seemingly dragging Nokia towards the path of bankruptcy or acquisition.

                      The so called WP focus seems more religious to me, since it’s completely faith based.

                    • Janne

                      My point is: I don’t think Symbian was giving back more than it was taking away in the long-term. Had Nokia succeeded earlier to respond to iPhone and Android, which I think the could have done with going Maemo full-blast years prior and failed to do because they tried to twist Series 60 into something it would never become, there would have been no hiring of Elop and no February 11th. The cost of the Symbian religion is huge, everything you hate about Nokia today.

                      Because unlike some here think, I would have preferred there to be no Elop and no February 11th. I do like Windows Phone as a separate issue, but as a Nokia fan I would have preferred there be none of these crisis years at all.

                      ps. As for giving away Maemo, Nokia was already giving away Symbian for free. They could have licensed the services layer, just like Google does.

                    • yasu

                      My point is: I don’t think Symbian was giving back more than it was taking away in the long-term.

                      Symbian was giving sales, profit and time to implement whatever changes needed for Nokia.

                      WP is consuming resources and is fueled by the belief that something will happen to save the day, as long as resources are poured in to save the day.

                      Do you see the difference? Something based on actual happenings against something based on beliefs?

                      Had Nokia succeeded earlier to respond to iPhone and Android, which I think the could have done with going Maemo full-blast years prior and failed to do because they tried to twist Series 60 into something it would never become, there would have been no hiring of Elop and no February 11th.

                      How do you know? Again with the peering on the alternate realities, are we?

                      The only reason I see in the reality is someone, who comes from Elop, who gambled the farm on the belief that WP7.x, which was already failing, could fill Symbian shoes. Despite all the weight put behind it, it failed.

                      Now the belief shifts to WP8 with the help of W8 network effects will fix everything.

                      The cost of the Symbian religion is huge, everything you hate about Nokia today.

                      Nope, everything I hate today about that company that is Nokia mostly in name only comes from Elop and his strong MS leanings. Don’t try to deflect the blame. It goes square at his feet.

                      If Symbian was a religion an Nokia, WP is even more so, all it has going for so far a beliefs on a better future, and many thing are sacrificed to fuel that belief.

                  • http://www.thedeathmerchant.com/ Death Merchant

                    It hasn’t made sense since February 11 2011. It has been a religion, led by Pope Elop and and his MS cardinals, since its beginning and driven Nokia to the brink of destruction. It’s an utterly failed strategy by every measure there is.

                    Market share destroyed, credit rating turned to utter junk, customers have been pissed off and lost for good, profits turned to massive losses, lots of high quality work force and bright minds lost, Nokia name tarnished and made a source of ridicule and the phones are now pathetic pieces of WP shit that are all alike with no real differences between them (not counting the 808).

                    I’m sure I missed many things, but there was more than enough of reasons for a sane person to conclude that the idiotic WP religion has been massive failure.

    • poiman

      You sir, are ridiculous. If you want to see Nokia dead and you hate it so much I don’t understand what the hell are you still doing here. I think it’s time for you to create your own myjollablog and have fun with it.

    • MeeGo Lover

      Ali and Janne are Elop paid posters!

      • efloped

        Oh, come on. We already have Ali as the Windows Phone lover and Meego/Symbian hater. Janne is just another Ali. Someday I HOPE we’ll see a post from AliJanne saying GOOD things about Symbian/Meego and dissing Windows Phone.

        • Janne

          BTW: Just to clarify, I have never ever hated Maemo/MeeGo. Indeed, Nokia 900 with Maemo 5 is still the best mobile device I have ever owned. My only gripe with the “old Nokia” was with Symbian – and even that only in later years. In 2001/2002, when I got its first devices, Symbian was revolutionary.

          • Janne

            Typo: 900 => N900.

          • Janne

            I think Symbian was probably at its best on the E90 in 2007. (N95 was probably the tech-pinnacle, but was also quite buggy.) E90 was very solid, had one of the better Symbian builds from Nokia (always a hit and miss due to the way they developed Symbian), the form-factor was innovative and Symbian suited that platform excellently.

            Indeed, Nokia 9210 Communicator of 2001 was also excellent. The first Series 60, Nokia 7650 of 2002, was very innovative and revolutionary – but also it was bugged as hell, something that would plague many Symbian devices down the road. But as long as Symbian stayed on non-touch devices, the UI was plenty good in my opinion, so some instability could be dealt with. The real trouble started with the N97…

            But yes, there is a lot in the Symbian history worthy of praise and appreciation. Unfortunately it is mostly history, but it is there nevertheless.

            • efloped

              Alright Janne, maybe I was a bit harsh with my words. I hope I see good, unbiased posts from you on the future.
              As for Ali, everything I said still counts. On EVERY post from him, even if it’s Symbian/Meego related, he HAS to mention his dear stormtrooper Lumia 900 and how he’s addicted to it or how Windows Phone has an edge. A quick search proves that.

              • twig

                I love my cyan 900.

                • twig

                  Symbian and meego do live on in windows apps and Apollo.

                  • deep space bar

                    um no they don’t

        • poiman

          Why would anyone diss WP just because, if it is na excelente OS? Symbian and MeeGo are over! Will you keep talking about them and pretending they will magically return and have a huge success for the next 50 years?

        • MeeGo Lover

          Yeah, Ali always attack MeeGo! But he doesn’t mention this list:

          121 REASONS NOT TO BUY A WINDOWS PHONE 7.5

          http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44034

          LOL!

          • MeeGo Lover

            *101

  • twig

    Anyone notice the new Microsoft Cyan mouse?

    Love this Lumia 900. Cyan.

  • ms.nokia

    interesting that the mice are new ms products and come in all the lumia colours plus red,
    does this mean a red lumia is just around the corner, or maybe nokia tablets?
    i can dream :)

    • ms.nokia

      *reply to twig

  • Deep Space Bar

    pointless post……..this is obvious…if elop made the 1:1 ratio of symbian and WP phones it would be equal or even so symbian would have abit more or even so if elop made the ratio 1:1 with meego,symbian and WP it would be very different

    • Janne

      I tend to agree that following StatCounter in these postings is probably increasingly pointless. It has become a little bit of a habit and I think it probably is best to put that habit to rest after this one. The comments suggest that there isn’t anything to discuss about it anymore. :)

    • poiman

      If, if, if… all speculation! Can you talk about reality?

      Symbian and MeeGo aren’t in the game anymore. Why do you want them so badly? Do you want an open source OS? Just go android! Having an open source OS doesn’t serve Nokia’s goals right now, so stop being selfish and accept the fact that what’s best for you doesn’t necessarily have to be the best for Nokia!

      • Deep Space Bar

        ‘what’ was best for nokia isn’t what they are doing now regardless and tha IF…just like Murphy’s law could,should and would have worked MUCH better IF they pushed it which they SHOULD and COULD have but they didn’t cause of the exM$ employee…..and no i don’t like android cause it’s owned by google and i don’t trust them anymore than i trust my own government…..which is not at all..i’m waiting for JollaOS after i get my 808

        • poiman

          Nokia should have pushed Symbian and MeeGo? Do you know what are you talking about? With what money would have Nokia pushed Symbian or MeeGo? Do you think it could compete with iOS and Android the way they were? Nokia would have had to invest millions to make Symbian or MeeGo competitive and Nokia didn’t have those millions. Can’t you see that?

          • Error

            Do you know what you are talking about? Nokia was making profit before Microsoft announcement and had cash reserve of almost 10 billion dollars so there was no money problems. Nokia was losing marketshare but it was still making little bit over billion dollars in profit a year.

            Lately there has been cash problems because Lumia isn’t selling and Symbian market share is going down rapidly. But before Microsoft partnership Nokia didn’t have any money problems. Nokia was losing marketshare but was still the biggest smartphone manufacturer in the world and unit shipments were growing (Samsung and Apple were growing faster than Nokia but Nokia was still growing unlike today).

            • Deep Space Bar

              exactly my point….how would using someone elses OS be cheaper than using their own…. that doesn’t make sense at all

              • poiman

                Because when you are using your own OS you have to support all their development costs (and yes, Symbian and MeeGo were going to need many many millions in order to become competitive… and even all those milions wouldn’t result because nowadays people have a very bad opinion about Nokia’s own OS). When you are working as na OEM you already have the OS done, you might have to pay the licenses to use it but it’s a lot cheaper than creating your own OS and a hole ecosystem around it.

            • poiman

              Symbian was going down. People hate it. There is no way it would make a magical and successful comeback. Get over it.

              • deep space bar

                because was sabotaged …how can company that has been globally known and that was EUROPEAN…..get taken out by 3 US companies as the EURO fails and goes under….hmmmm ever thought of that

                • JGsmartypants

                  Oh area you one of those creepy euro-nationalist types?

            • JGsmartypants

              Blackberry sales tanked too. It wasn’t Elop killing Symbian, it was the market deeming it inferior to iOS and android

  • Janne

    To try to steer the discussion back on topic, do you guys agree with my view (in the article) that StatCounter shows a slowdown of Windows Phone growth in August? The first signs of WP8-related slowdown of current devices? July was surprisingly good, but the slowdown is likely to start at some point. August stats might be showing that.

    • poiman

      Not sure if the average consumer is aware of the fact that WP8 is coming in 1 or 2 months.

      Anyway, I think that so far those who have a WP aren’t the average consumers, because the OS hasn’t reached the masses yet. I would say that 50% of those who already have Windows Phones are Microsoft or Nokia loyal consumers/fanboys and the great majority of the rest are people who are actually well informed about what’s new in the tech world and understand what different products/services Microsoft is selling to them.

      So, in conclusion, yes I think that the arrival of WP8 might be a reason for what’s happening in terms of sales.

    • Bloob

      Well, I know I have recommended to my friends and family to hold until September, so I would say it is very well possible that sales are slowing down ( a look at the weekly numbers in Europe, China and NA also supports this ).

      Have to remember that you can only hold your share of installbase if market share doesn’t drop, though.

    • swain

      The reason may be the announcement of unavailability of WP8 for existing Lumias. Many people are just holding their nerves to see if WP8(and next generation Lumias) deserves their money. One mistake and Nokia is doomed.

  • sdfg

    Stats show Windows Phone NOT Lumia.

    • Janne

      Arguably Lumia is the majority of WP sales anywhere, but yes I’d agree with that for any other market but Finland – hence I talked of Windows Phone in the European/rest of world stats.

      However, for Finland the home of Nokia, reality is Lumia is Windows Phone. Any sales of non-Lumia WPs would likely be so miniscule that they don’t matter at all.

    • Deep Space Bar

      lumia is a WP phone tho….i don’t know why they keep seperating lumia and WP if they are the same shit :/….friggin stupid…..and that’s the reason why i don’t follow this cause there are too many holes that people don’t tend to look at from another POV

  • gordonH

    Janne is an Elop fan. All comments twist and turn but finally it’s about protecting Elop.
    I like it better when Janne writes articles, at least I can avoid it. But the comments written to protect Elop becomes a headache cause it hangs around everywhere.

    • Janne

      Here’s Elop defending for you: If Q4 results disappoint, I think he needs to go.

      • gordonH

        Whoa !!! finally you “almost” get the point :-)

        • Janne

          With the impending WP8 launch I do think both Nokia’s new strategy and Elop’s tenure are reaching the maturity point where they need to be judged on results and not future promise alone. In short, they’ve had enough time – the time for excuses and transition will be over and it will be the time for the delivery.

          The location strategy will be in full play this fall, Nokia has had a full cycle for the production of the WP8 handsets and setting up their global manufacturing, their transitional products (like Symbian and N9) will be mostly gone. Windows Phone will have hit maturity and Windows 8 is in game. For many, many reasons this is the make or break time.

          Not only does Lumia need to start picking up the tab, it has had a fair chance of starting to do that. They need to show it is worthy. Q4 is that time.

          • Dave

            Q4 is too soon for good results, WP8 needs that time to roll out to all markets, and the whole W8 tablets and ultrabooks will have just hit the primary markets. I am sure you know that but are just appeasing the crazies.

            I am also curious exactly what you would have Nokia do in Q, since any change will delay them for another 2 years and means instant death. Only in Ahonen fantasy world can they retool and pump out N9s worldwide within one month.

            Q4 needs to show promise, black figures (but only just).

            • Janne

              My point is that Q4 needs to keep showing a healthy trajectory. I am not expecting market-beating numbers, but a continuation of the trajectory set by previous quarters (see my post down the thread). Nokia also has had enough time to ensure a global roll-out, we need not excuse them for another six months of getting Lumia out there. They can do better than that now, they need to do better.

              I know that some feel Q1/2013 or Q2/2013 numbers are only when you can start judging, but I have stuck to Q4/2012 consistently and continue to do so. The only reason I’d waver from that is if Microsoft delays the launch of W8 or WP8 significantly (say, WP8 only available in late November), because those are obviously crucial for the success of Q4. It is a holiday quarter, WP8 is hot, W8 is hot, Lumia is an established brand now. It needs to sell well.

              Meaning, it needs to sell well enough to convince the market of a healthy trajectory. Preferably it needs to take Nokia to black instead of red, but more importantly it needs to show a healthy trajectory. It needs to show excitement. I know they won’t get all the operator deals they need for Q4, and there is plenty of growth potential in 2013, but they need to get enough to show that trajectory in Q4.

              What would I have Nokia do if Q4 is not showing a healthy trajectory? I have resisted the temptation to call for a management change because that would endager the WP8 launch. If I were Siilasmaa I probably would not replace Elop in Q1, but I would start preparing more for the eventuality that Lumia won’t be able to win the war. When that plan was in action, I’d replace Elop with Siilasmaa and announce the plan.

              My plan would not include making N9s or N950s, nor would it include scrapping Lumia, but it would recognize that the failures in the transition have made trust in the chief executive disappear and thus made it impossible to be successful with him and that alogside Lumia Nokia probably would need something more. I won’t speculate on what that more would be, it would require insider information I don’t have.

              • Janne

                Mind you, I’m hoping none of that needs to be. There is still plenty of time for Lumia to be successful with WP8. They just need to execute well.

            • noki

              soo only Q1 2013??? talking about a burning platform really…

              you know how long we have been hearing that sort of talk from WP apologists???

              I still remember that same exact talk about Q1 2012.

              I’m with Janne on this one less than 10 M in Q4 and NOKIA is a RIP,,, unless Asha manages to save NOKIA from certain death.

              • Dave

                I don’t care who said Q1 2012, it doesn’t make sense, Q1 2013 is 2 years since the strategy change, that’s less time than we’ve waited for S60v5 to turn into S^3, and less time than we’ve waited for Meego/Maemo to yet again scrap the entire UI layer and again replace some core infrastructure component with yet another core infrastructure component and bikeshed bitch about rpm versus deb.

                It is no secret and no revisionist history that it has always been expected to take 18-24 months to turn around, as it takes that long to have brand new devices geared for WP8, on which Nokia has been working (also software side) since then.

          • deep space bad

            elop’s ‘new’ strategy is all but reasuring bullshit just like politics…….all talk,no substance and nothing to deliver…..why do you even bother listening to this puppet ….after all the damage he’s done and still doing …something is really wrong with you….this isn’t all for nokia..elop is doing it for Microsoft and how many companies have gotten fucked after partnering up them…..ALOT of them….take a step back rewatch his videos and reread those articles cause he twists his shit around and doesn’t even mention his own company like a real ceo cause he doesn’t care

    • Dave

      What childish nonsense. So you are a big OPK fan then huh. Yeah how great that was, a bean-counting lawyer who stifled Maemo and let Symbian stagnate. Fantastic. And you, gordonH, you you are such a OPK fun then.

      Can not possibly be that people prefer WP. No, they must be Elop fans. Everyone who bought a Lumia, it’s because they are Elop fans.

      • http://www.thedeathmerchant.com/ Death Merchant

        Talking about childish, so sound like some 7 year old little boy who’s daddy has been insulted by other kids. Jesus. The quality of posters here nowadays is really abysmal. Mainly the new Microsoft drones that came with Elop and his MS deal.

        • http://www.thedeathmerchant.com/ Death Merchant

          so = you

        • arts

          yeah, its not like the symbian/meego/open source nutjobs keeps insulting good bloggers away from contributing.

          So sad andre left. =(

        • arts

          and lets forget all the times when people who are supportive to the new deals are instantly branded as paid posters. Maybe your selective memory forgot, but its still very clear in my mind.

          Also, twisting facts to suit their needs? some are blaming elop for not supporting other low end countries while simultaneously ignoring asha. Kept saying n9 had NO adverts at all, when a whole fucking list could be found. Kept saying wp could not make it in china because of the lack of eastern char support, when a simple search in google COMPLETELY disproves that.

          Yeah. its the new stratergy supporters are childish.

        • Dave

          Let’s see what he said: “Janne is an Elop fan. All comments twist and turn but finally it’s about protecting Elop.”

          Yeah, my reply is the childish one. I was here before Elop, it was a much nicer place then, but that’s more because of people like you trolling somewhere else.

  • Janne

    I think this comment thread is evidence itself why it is better I’m not a writer here. :) I think it is time to put these StatCounter threads to rest on my part. However I do promise to comment on Q4 results when they come. For full disclosure, here is again the rough trajectory I have wanted Nokia to be able to deliver:

    Q1: 2 million (was known at the time)
    Q2: 3-4 million (turned out to be 4 million)
    Q3: 4-6 million (can be 1-6 million due to uncertainties)
    Q4: 10 million (needs to be in this ballpark)
    Q4/2013: 20 million (very rough ballpark)

    Now, Q3 will likely be a mess Lumia-wise and I’m not placing too much weight on those numbers, but I think the momentum and trajectory needs to be back in Q4. If for example Q3 sells less than 4 million Lumias and Q4 still sells only around 4 million Lumias, then Elop needs to go and the strategy re-evaluated. They numbers absolutely need to show healthy growth in Q4.

    • noki

      Me as a huge anti elop strategy Guy must congratulate Janne on its leveled comments and capacity to listen to counter arguments, wile providing reasonable rebates… Congrats Janne you Rock.

      I don’t agree with 60% of your expectations on WP, but that’s fine and usually its a good fun to debate with you.

      • Janne

        Thank you! Good to hear there is some give and take.

        There will of course always be different views and opinions. :)

        • noki

          I particularly like your trajectory expectations, you show that in spite of all the argumentation you expect measurable results.

          Personally I thing your 10M expectation for Q4 is deeply unrealistic, and 8M would be fantastic already.

          Q3 is a big ??? signs are not great… But its not Nokia fault.

          But again, I like that you set tangible goals. Most WP apologists here don’t and prefer to debate over symbians Death nature and how WP was the only exit not requesting any measurable success on it.

          • Janne

            I agree that 10M is a lot for them to achieve. By the way, it is a ballpark figure so if they land at 9.3 million I’d say close enough. But obviously 6-7 million would *not* be in the same ballpark, let alone anything less than that which would be utter failure. I guess a lot depends on how early in Q4 WP8 actually arrives. If they have a full or nearly full Q4 to sell, with a wide availability, 10 million shouldn’t be impossible, nor unrealistic to expect them to succeed with that. If Lumia only arrives sometime in November then we probably have to expect a little less from them.

            I think there is some room for analysis in my trajectory, of course. For example if Q3 is unexpectedly good and manages to grow significantly from Q2, then that puts a little less pressure on Q4. If they’d hit a homerun and sell 6+ million in Q3, that would be great. I don’t think they will, but if they do less pressure on Q4. On the other hand, if Q3 stumbles into the 1-2 million territory, it puts a heck of a lot more pressure on Q4 to look abso**ckinglutelyfantastic. If Q3 is a mess, expecting that 10M from Nokia in Q4 is all the more warranted.

            So, if Nokia were to sell 6 million Lumias in Q3 and only 8 million in Q4, I’d say not good, but not a disaster either. There is that upwards momentum. On the other hand, if they sell only 2 million in Q3 and then 6 million in Q4, I’d call that very bad even if Q4 did grow from Q2. It looks bad, it feels failure. And if the sales flat-line to +/- 4 million level for both quarters, that would be a disaster I doubt Elop could recover from.

            Lumia needs to show healthy trajectory. I’m willing to give Nokia a lot of leeway for Q3 because of the Windows Phone transition, but if Q3 is bad, then Q4 absolutely must be great. If Q3 is surprisignly good, then Q4 can show a little less and still look like healthy growth. The important thing here is the healthy upwards trajectory.

            I am far more hopeful of Nokia hitting that 10M ballpark in Q4 that them hitting the 4-6 million range in Q3. There are days when I think I’m being too pessimistic about Q3, but I can’t shake the feeling. Lumia 610 would have to do miracles in Q3 to keep Lumia device volumes growing. Is it the little engine that could? One can hope, but I’d be reluctant to bet on it.

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