Blackberry quarterly results don’t appear to be a big threat to Nokia

| June 28, 2013 | 142 Replies


Today Blackberry announced its quarterly results for the first quarter of the 2014 fiscal year. Normally I’m not that interested in what the competition does in terms of devices shipped, I care far more about the experience they deliver in both the hardware they sell and after sales. Hence I chose Nokia.


This time it is a little more interesting since quite a few people mentioned that Blackberry, with their Z10, might beat Nokia in terms of sales. Unfortunatly though the quarterly results are pretty bad. Even a Blackberry fan can’t deny that the company is going through some pretty rough times. Blackberry managed to ship(!) 6.8 million smartphones, which in itself isn’t bad but neither is it good. The real problem lies in the fact that only 40% (or 2.7 million) of all those shipments were BB10 devices, the full touch Z10 and touch keyboard equipped Q10. Which goes to show that early analysis (or analysts) can’t always be trusted, since there were reports that the Z10 sold close to or over an estimated 4 million units.

Of course, it remains to be seen what Nokia did over the past quarter. It shouldn’t be hard to beat that 2.7 million number, but the total amount of 6.8 million is a little harder since the sales target lies at only 7.1 million. The key is what kind of number Nokia will present next month, will it be devices shipped or devices sold? It’ll be interesting to see how Nokia did, but we’ll have to wait a while to see those results.

Thanks for the tip


Category: Nokia

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  • Janne

    Way too soon to call, though. BB10 seems to be growing at a similar volume rate to Lumia when the latter started. Too soon to say when things are still ramping up. Some good plays like the app count for BB, but also downs like abandoning BB10 for PlayBook.

    The similarities are eerie though, one more BB7 new device still coming, like the lingering Symbian at Nokia… BB10 is interesting proxy. Could MeeGo have worked for Nokia? Seems to be hard for all players who came late to the modern smartphone wars.

    • It is, there is no way to call imminent demise of BB and I’m not implying that (hopefully.

      There are some extra tidbits in the full financial results though. Despite cutbacks they still lost money, which I find disturbing for a company the size of BB. Nokia was/is losing cash but it was/is far larger. But the real deal to me is the reliance on older BB devices. Just 40% of the sold devices was of the new generation, if the old style BB’s suddenly drop off can the new generation hold the company up for long enough?

      I don’t see BB10 sales rising significantly anytime soon. The quarter these results are from is when the Z10 was out in force and the Q10 also started selling. The Q10 was never going to be a best seller so it probably won’t have that big effect.

      The one thing that BB does have is a smaller company that can react to a changing environment quicker than the big elephant that Nokia is. But even then, BB has very little side business to prop up the company.

      Heck, I’m totally ignoring my first sentence of the post with not being interested in financial results. 😛

      • Tom

        The result does not look good for Blackberry. They have only 1 device in the high end(Q10 availability at the end of quarter). With that I would say the sold favorably compared to Nokia Q1. Blackberry does not have any debt and their cash position improved(without selling headquarters). They are also much smaller company, so have less overhead.

        Given that, if the current scenario continues, Blackberry will outlive Nokia.

        • jiipee

          I dont believe Blackberry will outlive Nokia. There is small change that BB might outlive Nokia with smartphones though. Nokia is still making big losses in their smartphone operations and if it does not start to bring money in this year, it would be best for the shareholders to sell it. BBs survival lies solely on the business segment. They might survive there with lower volumes unless WP kicks them out.

          • Capedonut

            Then again the whole feature phone segment is pushed to even lower price points, so I doubt Nokia wants to rely on it alone. The future is in Smartphones. It looks like their strategy is to win the lower price segments with build quality and smooth ux and in the higher end they have quite consistently been pushing the camera narrative.

            • Random Random

              That’s probably how they are planning to do it.

              It makes lots of sense since it’s the same strategy they were using with Symbian.

              Of course they have a more modern OS so the outcome might be a very good for them. At least it seems that the trend is still working for Nokia.

              • jiipee

                I doubt it will work unless the camera is really something exceptional – 41mpix does not do it. Camera is to the large audience a hygiene factor.

                They will probably reach healthy sales levels in smartphones.That market is quite saturated and commodized,which means they should invent new product/application areas to compete. In the business segment there will be plenty with all kinds of sensors, health market will have a lot of innovation – the downside of that eg for this blog & consumers is that those areas will be less sexy. I wonder when we get to again see real innovation and market disruption from Nokia. Mighy never happen in the consumer segment since I believe MS will want to introduce the competing tech to Apple & Google & Sammy & Sony in the future alongside eg xbox. That means a lot to them regarding brand regocnition. Watches, glasses, screens to any surface.

                • Random Random


                  41MP camera is a niche product just because it’s too big in size and it’s a bit too expensive because of the sensor.

                  About that market disruption you mentioned.

                  Nokia has never really disrupted the market. The only player doing that was Apple with the original iPhone.

                  • Capedonut

                    That’s not entirely true though. In the early days they were at least more than partly responsible for bringing services like SMS to affordable cellphones.

                    • jiipee

                      The whole gsm stuff was done together with Ericsson, though Mltorola was probably a lot more advanced.

                      Afaik, Nokia still holds the record for best selling device.

                      Nokia has also brought a lot of services (maybe some others did the same) to the market, that werent so succesfull. I dont see that happening anymore.

                    • Random Random

                      Yes, Nokia did introduce lots of features or at least helped to make them popular.

                      But did they disrupt the market? No.

                      Nokia introduced the concept of market disruptions only after Apple invented the modern smartphone and invoked the revolution that almost destroyed Nokia.

                      Market disruptions is a concept, introduced by Nokia. They started to promote that concept in an attempt to copy Apple.

                      Every time Nokia talks about market disruptions, they talk about trying to copy Apple.

                    • jiipee

                      Elop adopted the term, but did not invent it.

                      You think about the market in too narrow terms. The market in handheld devices that have social aspect to them – calling, sharing, photography. Nokia has been disrupting the market in less sexy areas.

                      Anyway, I should have used the term innovate instead or disrupting. Nokia was one of the key players innovating eg the smartphone market and device category, Apple improved and packaged it a lot better. Big part of it was due to excellent product management, what helped was that they were new without any historical package.

                      Nokia did test the market in many ways – mostly unsuccesfully. I would like to see that and I doubt it will happen.

                    • Janne

                      I believe it is fair to say Nokia disrupted photography by introducing the first popular, mass-made camera phones.

                      I think Random is just suffering from the fact that the word disruption was not so familiar in Finland some years ago.

                    • Random Random

                      Yes, Nokia has been innovating on mobile just the same way as Apple has. Taking good ideas and implementing them on mobile.

                      Disrupting is something that pretty much destroys old corporations by introducing something new. Digital cameras already disrupted the old photography business and phones just evolved that. Film was already almost ‘dead’ when the mobile phones had good enough cameras. That’s why Nokia didn’t really disrupt in that case.

                      About suffering.

                      I’m not even suffering from the fact that Nokia didn’t really disrupt but evolved the market.

                      Yes, Nokia is trying to market with saying that they could disrupt something.

                      We have probably a different definition on this.

                  • jiipee

                    I dont agree with this”41MP camera is a niche product just because it’s too big in size”

                    It wont be cheap either. Only limited share of consumers are willing to pay the premium.

                    • Random Random

                      That’s true.

                      It’s mostly because of the size but also because of the price.

    • thedead1440

      You can’t compare BB10 sales with what MeeGo would have become as the two OSes are as dissimilar as chalk and cheese… MeeGo-Harmattan is much more open with true multi-tasking (no 8 apps limitation etc) so not really a valid comparison except for using Qt for apps…

      • Random Random

        So it begins.

        Just as I have said.

        If BB succeeded, it would have been a proof of MeeGo succeeding. If it was going to be a failure, it was not going to proof that MeeGo was going to be a failure.

        • arts


        • Otto


        • Otto

          Heck, +N9!

        • jiipee

          It is easy to play that game by oversimplifying, still that is very much the case.

          You have a player that is much smaller, one year later in the game, without partners (Intel et al), a lot smaller market presence, not other businesses supporting the struggling smartphone operation.

          The only thing that plays for BB is their position in the business segment.

          Also, Nokia and BB would have been part of the same ecosystem with Qt.

          If such a company succeedes with brand new OS it is much more probably for Nokia to have succeeded than to fail. If BB fails, there are a lot more attributes that can affect. If they succeed, none of the attributes were against them, if they fail, it can be die to own OS or some of the other aforementioned dimentions.

          PS. you should note that Im talking about probabilities.

          • Janne


            Actually, your comment on partners is an over-simplification in its own right. Arguably BlackBerry had much better carrier relations within its chosen field than Nokia ever had with MeeGo. The business subscriber base in a form of ecosystem lock-in, and that BB had and in contrast Nokia didn’t have, going for them.

            • jiipee

              I did mention the business segment.

              I havent paid so much attention to Blackberry since in the grand scheme of things it is irrelevant, an interesting proxy as you say. I read that they had pretty good carrier support in North America. We cannot know, what was cooking behind the scenes with Nokia / Meego. We know that China Mobile was there as well as Telefonica. We have heard from several sources that At&t was prepeating for N9 ver. 2. I think that Viipottaja has said that Verizon was also rumoured to join the party. Globally Nokia was superior in terms of sales channels in comparison to BB.

              Id like to hear someones expert opinion on HW adaptation of Meego vs QNX vs WP.

              • Janne

                I know you mentioned it. I think it merited more than you mention.

                • jiipee

                  That is fine. I tried to underline it by making a separate paragraph. So you agree on the other points, or? Am I missing something 😉

                  Btw. what do you think about Meego vs Symbian in terms of development costs? I would argue that it would have been a lot more affordable with others sharing parts of the core development and Qt costs (eg RIM was/is big contributor). They should have ofcourse changed their product strategy to less variants as they have now done.

                  • Janne

                    o you agree on the other points, or?

                    Let’s see…

                    You have a player that is much smaller, one year later in the game, without partners (Intel et al), a lot smaller market presence, not other businesses supporting the struggling smartphone operation.

                    Otherwise I agree, but I do think BB has various companies supporting it in the carrier community and a business ecosystem lock-in/subscriber base that Nokia didn’t have. Nokia has basically a fickle consumer base to appease, BB has a steadier main market.

                    Also, Nokia and BB would have been part of the same ecosystem with Qt.

                    True. BB and MeeGo had not only the Qt ecosystem benefit, as well as some *nix ecosystem benefits. Of course back when MeeGo started Qt mobile ecosystem was miniscule. But it could have worked, sure. (WP of course has its own different ecosystem benefits.)

                    If such a company succeedes with brand new OS it is much more probably for Nokia to have succeeded than to fail.

                    Definitely. We have always agreed on this. The BB/RIM proxy is probably the most accurante *if* they succeed – in that case Nokia probably could and should have succeeded with MeeGo as well.

                    If BB fails, there are a lot more attributes that can affect. If they succeed, none of the attributes were against them, if they fail, it can be die to own OS or some of the other aforementioned dimentions.

                    Sure, there is somewhat more. However, it depends a lot on how it fails. If that happens (I hope not, I want to see BB around) we’ll discuss the particulars. But I’ll agree on this: BB/RIM failing does NOT mean Nokia would have failed. It could mean that, we’ll see, but it does not guarantee meaning it.

                    PS. you should note that Im talking about probabilities.


                    P.S. Interesting: BB’s decision to drop off BB10 support in PlayBook plays out bit like people’s reaction to Nokia’s MeeGo/Meltemi/Feb11 “killings” – on a miniature scale, of course, but still.

                    • jiipee

                      The playbook stuff was odd. How big is the installed base?

                      I havent checked the statistic of BB for ages since they are niche, but my gutfeel on their position in the business segment says that it has crashed half a year ago. It mainly Iphone nowadays (I’ve chatted with people from large French corporations and some British bankers some months ago).Dont know about the US at all.

                    • Janne

                      They still have something like 75 million BB subscribers, though. Down again this quarter like every quarter for a while, but still.

                    • Janne

                      As for PlayBook base, don’t know. They sold recently like 100 000 of them in a quarter. It is 2 year old product (April 19th, 2011 or so launch) and I guess it never did big.

                      The no-BB10 news is bad more in a PR sense and angering the diehard fans than actually significant. That’s why it is so weird, they didn’t have to announce it in the earnings call!

                      They had promised back in January this year that BB10 would come to PB, to it is doubly weird.

                    • jiipee

                      Must be some serious peformance issues behind it.

                      Btw. how is it with the promise from MS to offer WP8 version for nerds to install on WP7 devices?

                    • Janne

                      jiipee: MS never offered that. That was a gross misinterpretation.

                      MS *did*, however, offer WP8 early-bird updates (bypassing carriers) for geeks, this has yet to materialize. But it was never meant for WP7 devices, it was meant for WP8 devices to get their updates faster through some alternate distribution mechanism.

              • Viipottaja

                I don’t think I have talked about Verizon.. IIRC, only said that AT&T was according to the guy I talked to, very interested, but who knows what the reality was. This was in mid 2010.

                • jiipee

                  My mistake then. I was sure that it was some other carrier than was mentioned in the Meego article.

          • jiipee

            One thing you also seem to miss: afaik Meego was for free, just like Android is with the spyware. I dont know how mature the Meego phone version was as Nokia clearly was not fully backing it up (wish I could learn more of it), but there could be a lot more OEMs/ODMs (at least Chinese white label manufacturers) working on it by now. Nokia could still differentiate with UX including UI and UX. With BB that is impossible.

            • Random Random

              Since MeeGo’s phone version was not really ready and supporting all the features it was supposed to have in order to succeed, it wasn’t going to make it. Well. Considering Nokia shipped it only in 2011 and not it 2008 as they should have.

              MeeGo’s openness is another fynny issue we have here.

              It really doesn’t matter if MeeGo was open on some other way than in the mobile. In the mobile world it’s mobile that matters. Not something else.

              In the end of Nokia’s day, they shipped N9 with closed source components. N9 was definitely not open and when Elop was talking about only few MeeGo phones they could ship by 2014, he was probably referring to true MeeGo phones. Not half baked flavors like the N9.

              By half baked I mean that N9 was not MeeGo so it doesn’t count as one of those few MeeGo phones they would have been able to ship before 2014.

      • Janne

        Well, it is valid in the sense that both companies, Nokia and RIM (now BB) had a similar idea: eventually replace a legacy OS (Symbian, BB7) with something completely new (MeeGo, QNX aka BB10), but in-house built (although of course RIM acquired QNX to kickstart things)… only one of those companies decided to follow that plan, the other (Nokia) felt it was too slow and hard to go it alone.

        So, it is interesting to see if BB makes it. If they do make it better than WP, it certainly casts a shadow on Nokia’s concern that they would be faster with WP than with MeeGo. Of course it is not fully apples and apples, Nokia was earlier, but lacked BB’s business subscriber base, there were size differences etc.

        But still, as the best proxy we’ve got, it is interesting. Imperfect, but interesting.

        • Pathetic

          you’re saying that windows phone is better than Blackberry?
          in no possible way this is true.
          Windows Phone has had some sales (mediocre) just because they carry the Nokia brand, that’s it, not because windows phone is good,

          • Random Random

            No, you seem to be mistaken.

            WP is selling despite the Nokia brand. Nokia brand was severely damaged because of Nokia selling those flawed Symbian phones ruining the reputation of the company.

            Did I ever tell you how much Symbian users actually hated the Nokia phones they were using? It was not just some mild dislike or even strong one. It was genuine hate.

            It was just horrible to watch how people fought with those ill fated phones in an attempt to make them work properly. Lots of people were no longer using Nokia branded phones even for free. Companies were buying Symbian phones for the employees, paying the bills ever for personal use and people were still replacing those.

            It’s actually incredible how well Lumia is selling despite Symbian tarnishing Nokia’s reputation.

            • jiipee

              You are now on the wrong forum, mate.

              • Random Random


                This is not the place to talk about Nokia?

                • jiipee

                  genuine hate
                  ill fated

                  Im sorry, if someone has hurted your feelings. Such troll baiting is not really mature.

                  • Random Random

                    I guess you don’t like honesty?

                    Symbian was destroying Nokia’s reputation and those words are actually a quite moderate description of what Symbian was. Maybe not a honest enough, but then again, I don’t want to be that rude.

                    This has nothing to do with being hurt.

                    Please, just try to accept fair and honest criticism. You don’t have to answer, read or comment it if you don’t like to.

                    • jiipee

                      You still dont get it? What I was trying to point out that you deliberately use words that are clear evidence of trolling.

                      I had N8 through work and especially the first iteration was rubbish. Ive seen and heard companies being dissatisfied with Symbian phones and Ive never argued against that. Later Ive seen those very same companies to continue to purchase Nokia devices. It clearly did not destroy their brand.

                      Constructive and honest critisicm is something I try to do all the time, I just dont do it to create havok. Eg in the above you start bashing Symbian, when the above comments are related to BB and WP. Someone has teased you too much at school.

                    • Random Random

                      Sorry about posting that comment about teasing as a reply to the wrong message. I guess you can find it and read it from there anyway, so there is no need for me to post it again.


                      A clear evidence of trolling? By what definition?

                      If you look at the MNB and check how people are using that word, it’s quite evident that everyone is a troll if he or she has a wrong opinion.’

                      You seem to spice up that idea by introducing a concept where negative words are a clear evidence of trolling.


                      Are you suggesting that we should be talking about happy things and perhaps even praise even the bad products and claims that are not true? No, you are not suggesting that.

                      Consumer market is a very different one from the B2B one. Nokia is currently doing quite well in B2B sales, but the consumer market, that’s a different story.

                      Nokia is still trying to fix their reputation among the consumers. It’s a huge task and they have really beefed up the trashed reputation they had.

                      If you don’t want Symbian to be mentioned, please give us clear instructions on how to write here so that there is not too much off topic for your taste.

                  • Random Random

                    What has the opposite sex teasing me in the school have to do with this?

                    Besides, if teens are not teased by the opposite sex (not talking about gays, just to simplify this) there may be something wrong with the future of the human race.

                    Did you bring up the question about teasing because people are wearing less clothes in the summer time and you just might get some ideas when teased?

                    Sure, in a way I get your point. First teased in the school and not getting everything you might want for, and then seeing all those gadgets and not being able to buy them all? Did you really try to say that?

                    Anyway, I have usually been able to pick the stuff I have really wanted to.

                • Gunnar

                  Stupid, the only company that is able to sell crap WP is Nokia
                  Because they have the name Nokia and all Nokia fan

                  • Gunnar

                    My stupid post was for Random

          • v.s.i

            Both have their advatages. But WP started earlier and MS has deep pockets, so they can throw money at it for a good while (even though it appears as if they’re trying to save as much as they can if WP’s development pace is anything to go by – still, I’ll agree it’s faster than what old Nokia used to put out). On the other hand, BB10 is nothing revolutionary (an evident Harmattan ripoff) and the HW is certainly forgettable.

        • Otto

          I call for one addition. Blackberry (at that time RIM) ends their fiscal quarter at end of February. When Nokia’s phone sales went downhill Q1 2011, Blackberry sales started to go downhill too. (Unit sales, not market share as both lost share already before) So in comparison, if Nokia started to go downhill because of dumping Symbian, then BB went downhill because Nokia dumped Symbian. Which is if course impossible.
          Back to proxy: rise of Android kicked both companies down the hill. Other chose in-house OS, other went for outsourcing the OS. During this year we should see how they compare.
          Interesting times.

  • poopshoot

    Does BB report the actual number of sales instead of just shipments? I think I remember hearing that there were some anomalies in the sales figures where customers were returning devices? Or maybe BB could’ve to surge shipped devices to carriers just to inflate shipping figures?


    • viktor von d.

      from what i’ve read on engadget and the verge they reported shipped figures,while apple and nokia report sold figures. for blackberry in this earnings report i read the sold numbers were actually 25% lower then what they said they shipped.

      it seeems blackberry is now in the same position as nokia was when they made the switch to windows phone. i wouldn’t call them dead either. they still have time a year or 2 to turn the company around

      • Janne

        Yes, from the little I have followed, it indeed seems BB reports “shipped”, not “sold”.

    • Otto

      AFAIK Nokia results also are sales to retail/operators/businesses. Nokia does not (and can not) track sales to end users. So both have a constant risk of stuffing the retail channel and therefore making big sales (shipments) in one quarter leading to less sales (shipments) in next.
      Nokia has lately been supply constrained so they do not that much have the risk. 😉

      • jiipee


        Nokia did mention that there were a bit higher inventories than normally. Nothing alarming. I guess those were WP7 devices, of which rest are now dumbed (just noticed big discount on L900).

        “We ended the first quarter 2013 slightly above the high end of our normal 4 to 6 week channel inventory range. On an absolute unit basis channel inventories decreased sequentially.”

  • Random Random

    It will be interesting to hear Noki’s comments about this. The sales fell short of the range he predicted. Not much but fell short from the range.

    It’s true that we can’t really say if they have failed or not, but at least this doesn’t seem to be a huge success for home buttonless design they have.

    • Janne

      There were already qwerty Q10 sales in these figures, although this was not a full or fully ramped-up quarter for Q10.

      I think we can only expect to see how the “first BB10” generation fares sometime in Q3-Q4 calendar – especially considering possible cheaper models still around the corner.

      • Random Random

        In a year from now we can have some YoY numbers.

        That will be extremely interesting.

        There is no immediate risk of ceasing all operations for BB but they should improve the sales in order to avoid that from happening.

        • jiipee

          The bigger problem for them seems to be getting new devices. If they miss Christmas season, they are dead.

          • Random Random

            They should sell few selected great devices. Not just one but few.

            • jiipee

              Agree there. The most important is to cover the whole business segment needs. Some simple models for shop / factory floor workers, sales mans device and management. Then some of those models could also fit a certain consumer segment.

    • v.s.i

      OK man, I’ll give it that you seem to have been right. Given that BlackBerry’s results with BB10 results after 2 quarters are quite abysmal even by Nokia’s Lumia standards, this potentially shows that not a very big market existed for the N9, even if it had true multitasking, Qt, swipe gestures, dual-core CPU, WXGA screen and Android app compatibility (but truth be said, the N9 is light-years ahead of Z10 in hackability, design, elegance. It’s a pity we don’t know how many were sold – please tell if you have the numbers).

      Still, that makes me love it all the more. 🙂 And no, I’m not disproving the Lumia line or bragging about my Linux skills, I just like things to adhere to an idea, like with the N9 being true Linux in my pocket, not just some half-assed standard-evading Google implementation. 😛

      I just hope MS picks up the pace – nothing wrong with WP (160K apps – awesome!) but you should know better what lagging behind for too much time brings.

      • Random Random

        I completely understand why and how some people prefer to have devices like N9, but it has just been very hard to understand the logic for taking considerable market share with devices like that.

        I don’t have those numbers and even if someone did, that person would not be believed.

        What’s wrong with the Google implementation? Isn’t that just a perfect example how anyone can take open software and build it just as they wish?

        Yes, WP has a nice amount of applications, but there should be considerably more if they really wanted to succeed. At least it seems that WP is going to capture more and more market share. That’s very good for Nokia.

        • v.s.i

          My personal problem with Android is that they took something open, modified it and profited without returning back to the community. Heck, that was the idea of Linux! That open source would be a collective effort, not just some company running off with the product of those efforts for their personal well-being. And to top it off, it was not even a Google invention – they simply bought the company and profited.

          Just like some other company (Canonical) seems to be doing lately.

          It makes sense from a business point of view, but I am not a business, so it doesn’t from my point of view. 🙂

          • tom

            If there is an open os, at this point it’s Android. Every bit of the OS is open source. Google apps built on top are not and they are not expected to.

            May be you haven’t seen Android or don’t know much about it.

            • Janne

              Open software, though, usually means an open development process as well. In that regard Android is not open.

              • Tom

                It’s not open software. Google never said that. If they start to develop in open, it will be too slow at this point to compete in mobile ecosystem. They need to be fast and agile now, which Google is.

                It’s open source software.

                • Random Random

                  In a way, yes.

                  Then again, Android really needs those services Google provides and effectively it makes some parts of the user experience closed source.

                  In the end of the day it’s not really relevant if the OS is open source or not if some parts shipped with it are proprietary.

                  Open source is too often a nice marketing term.

            • KeiZka

              Basis is open source. Development, not that much.

          • Random Random

            Yes, that’s not how open source was supposed to work, but then again almost anyone is doing the same. Apple is using lot of open source and they have a similar idea of using those closed components.

            Nokia’s adventures on open sourcing Symbian was just something I never understood. Nokia was proposing that about a half of the Symbian development would be done by volunteers without a salary, but then they were developing Symbian in secrecy so that was not even possible.

            I remember one day when in Maemo days I had some conversations (not anything work related) with a moderately your woman responsible with some of Nokia’s Linux and open source relations. Let’s say she was definitely very very confident about everything she was doing. Very very confident. That was interesting.

            Canonical is probably doing he same thing because it’s very efficient for some companies.

            I definitely understand why you don’t like that, but then again, just like you say we have several points of view to this matter.

    • jiipee

      What will you say, if Apple some day will swith to buttonless design?

      • Random Random

        I have already commented that in the past.

        I don’t say it’s impossible to create a successful design without a home button. One implemented with hardware or software.

        A product may succeed if it’s well designed and the timing is right.

        In the early 2000 the timing and the designs were not ready for the launch. Apple changed that with the iPhone.

        It seems that Nokia just didn’t have a successful enough product with the N9. Maybe Apple or someone else will succeed in that in the future. The design may need only some minor tweaking to be a success. And of course, in the future people may want different designs.

        • jiipee

          Agree with you there. Would have been nice to the Nokia concepts for pre-Iphone touch screen device, when they were scrapped. Were they crap or not, I cant say.

          What I dont understand again, why did you have to include this in your reply “It seems that Nokia just didn’t have a successful enough product with the N9”. I know that you always have to provoke for no reason. If N9 failed due to buttonless design, why are they pushing Asha range with Swipe?

          • Random Random

            I included that obviously because we were talking about Swipe UI and about the possibility that Apple could implement and succeed with a design without home button. Apparently Nokia didn’t succeed with that. No matter what the reason is, but Nokia didn’t succeed.

            One more thing.

            N9 was not a buttonless design but a design without a home button.

            N9 had three buttons.

  • Fred

    If we want more apps WP/Lumia needs to become the only third ecosystem. I don’t like to say it, but BB-sales dropping could be good news for Nokia.

  • dss

    With Nokia behind WP.. BB don’t stand a chance. If Nokia was an andro OEM isntead.. BB have a very realistic chance against MS.

  • Janne

    Reading CrackBerry gives me an eerie dejavu…

    Where have we discussed similar wordings before?

    There is still hope for BB, yet currently it doesn’t look all that good either.

    I hope they pull through.

    • Oleg Derevenetz

      Yeah, all the same about two years back 🙂 Too high expectations from BB10 fans.

      • n8thebest

        Really? I’ve seen Windows Phone haters like you hate Nokia mercilessly recently, while praising BB10.

        So how is your almighty BB10 doing? It’s doing horribly. Blackberry is going to fail as a company.

        • arts

          😉 ROFL

        • arts

          I recall quite a few times individuals have been questioning relentlessly about nokia’s decision to move towards the lower end of the smartphone market (even then projections of premium smartphone growth slowing down and cheaper smartphones skyrocketting were aplenty) with claims that nokia is stupid. 😉

          while we cant really compare the whatifs between meego and BB10, what we CAN do is compare the focus on high end strategy (BB10) and the broader approach of nokia.

          • Random Random

            There is nothing wrong with going to low end if the high end is selling well enough. Back in the Symbian days that was exactly the problem. High end was collapsing and low end was competing with the price.

          • n8thebest

            Yes indeed. What we are seeing before our very eyes is BB10 failing. The lower-end devices like the Q5 will be too little too late. Even the Q5 itself is simply too expensive, compared to low-end Lumias or low-end Androids. Blackberry won’t get enough volume from their low-end BB10 devices. The answer is simple; the OS itself is horrible, and requires fairly high-end specs to run with acceptably smooth performance. Blackberry fans love to talk about how BB10 is resource efficient, when that is factually false. BB10 uses a lot of RAM, and needs dual core to function smoothly. I’ve heard that BB10 needs a minimum of 2GB of RAM to function with acceptable performance. The Z10 and Q10 both have 2GB of RAM, and even Blackberry’s first so-called “low end” BB10 device, the Q5 has 2GB of RAM as well. 2GB of RAM needed in a “lower end” device? That’s just ridiculous, and proves that BB10 is a resource hog.

            So clearly, Windows Phone has the efficiency edge here, as low-end Lumias are quite smooth running with only 512MB RAM.

            Due to the ridiculous RAM requirements of BB10, it will be impossible for Blackberry to make devices under $200, let alone cheaper than that. Even the Q5 retails for well over $300. So simply making a BB10 device for under $300 is going to be a huge challenge.

            The ONLY reason the older Blackberries were still selling at all in overseas markets was because they were CHEAP. Now that is no longer possible with BB10, not for several years at least. Blackberry unfortunately doesn’t have several years to wait, for prices on components to drop.

            Phones like QWERTY Ashas will be bought by people in overseas markets looking for cheap QWERTY phones, as Blackberry discontinues its old BB6 and BB7 devices.

            With BB10, Blackberry simply won’t be able to have high volumes and will only struggle more and more, as Nokia grows stronger with their next-generation Ashas and Windows Phones.

            Blackberry thought they could go alone at making an ecosystem, and they were very wrong. Nokia tried that years ago with Maemo which turned into Meego, and clearly that didn’t work.

            Even for a lot of haters and trolls, it’s becoming more clear that Nokia partnering with Microsoft on Windows Phone was a smart decision, in order to have Nokia remain alive but also competitive in the smartphone market. Did Samsung become so big by trying to make their own ecosystem? Of course not. They partnered with Google years ago and strongly embraced Android.

            Apple created their ecosystem by having masterful marketing, along with *over a decade* of consistently great products. Nokia simply didn’t have the time, the money, nor the consistency to pull this off alone like Apple did. They also did not have the reputation.

            Now with Microsoft though, Nokia is slowly rebuilding itself as a company and competitor in the smartphone market, and Nokia has a chance with Windows Phone to become a huge player in the smartphone market once again, as long as Microsoft continues to strongly support Nokia which it will continue to do given their growing close ties.

            • Janne

              Interesting point about BB10 RAM requirements. The fact that the “cheap” Q5 (I think it is around Lumia 820 price?) has 2 GB of RAM, would explain its price.

              PlayBook only has dual-core but only 1 GB of RAM, so I guess that explains why they had to abandon their plans for a PlayBook BB10 update quoting too bad performance.

              2 GB RAM requirement certainly doesn’t bode very well for BB10. I didn’t know about that.

              • n8thebest

                Yes, when I first learned about it I myself was shocked. But seeing the Z10 and Q10 both with 2GB of RAM was the first proof, and now seeing the Q5 with 2GB RAM certainly proves that BB10 needs 2GB of RAM to run with acceptably smooth performance.

                Yes, with the Playbook, I think the real inside story is that they simply could not optimize or rework BB10 to make it run smoothly on 1GB of RAM, even though they made a promise in the past that the Playbook would get BB10.

                2GB RAM requirement for BB10 is going to be one of the nails in the coffin for Blackberry and BB10.

                • n8thebest

                  *Also just to add, with Android needing a minimum of 1GB RAM to run at acceptable levels, and with BB10 needing 2GB of RAM to run at acceptable levels, this makes iOS and Windows Phone look like genius bits of programming in comparison.

                  Current versions of both Windows Phone and iOS can run quite smooth with only 512MB of RAM. That is impressive considering Windows Phone 8 runs the full NT Windows kernel.

                  More impressively, Windows Phone 7 can run smooth on only 256MB of RAM, and older versions of iOS can run smoothly on the iPhone 3GS, which has only 256MB of RAM.

                  Windows Phone arguably runs a bit smoother than iOS, so that is a lot of credit to the efficiency of Windows Phone.

                • Janne


                  More worrisome for BB, when they promised BB10 they probably expected to be able to make it work with 1 GB, maybe even less? These plans probably went hand in hand with pland for cheaper BB10 phones?

                  The fact that they cancelled that PlayBook BB10 plan and Q5 has 2 GB means those plans are either shelved or at least delayed perhaps beyond 2013… That doesn’t really bode well.

                  Oh well, there is still the chance that they can make a lower-end phone with less RAM work with BB10, even if they couldn’t make a lower-RAM tablet work out… But still, the current 2 GB requirement certainly casts a shadow of worry.

                  • jiipee

                    Could you enlighten me a bit: what is the share of memory ot total smartphone BOM? Ive been told that the savings made on memory on Symbian devices were close to nothing. 2GB is quite a different thing what was discussed with Symbian though.

                    I know nothing about BB10 technically. One way to optimize the performance must be to limit the multitasking capabilities of the system. How possible is that depends on the system. MS has managed to do that with WP.

                    • n8thebest

                      BB10 already is limited to 8 apps for multitasking.

                  • n8thebest

                    Yes, I believe maybe they did expect initially to be able to optimize for 1GB RAM, but it seems that they’ve been unable to do so, for either phones or tablets.

                    Well I believe if the plans were delayed, I don’t think they’d flat out cancel the BB10 upgrade for the Playbook. They would have delayed it further, but not cancel it.

                    That’s the point; this is a huge “maybe” for them, which clearly they haven’t been able to do with the Q5.

                    If I had to bet on this situation, I would also bet that they won’t be able to get BB10 onto lower-RAM devices for a long time. If they somehow do force BB10 onto 1GB RAM devices within the next year, then it’s going to be a terrible user experience.

                    Nokia on the other hand, very quickly managed to make low-end WP7 Lumias with 256M RAM, and low end WP8 Lumias with 512MB of RAM.

                    The differences are really showing to be quite startling in terms of the paths Nokia and Blackberry have taken.

                    The other huge problem is BB10 itself; customer satisfaction just isn’t that high with it, and a lot of consumers as well as companies are choosing Windows Phone over BB10.

    • v.s.i

      I think ex-CEO Balsillie had a plan to turn them around that involved exiting the mobile market and turning BB into an infrastructure provider. It looks way better now than it did back then…

  • twig

    Just on the wire…BB is breaking a promise to upgrade their tablet they made in Jan.or Feb. Of this year.

  • Maybe

    BB 10 only comes with 2 devices for the time being. While Lumia currently with 5? Why don’t we compare Z10 with 920? Maybe it will be fair and square?

    • Otto

      Well, it was said that only 40% (or 2.7 million) of all those shipments were BB10 devices, the full touch Z10 and touch keyboard equipped Q10.
      So in fact they have more than 2 devices. 😉

      • jiipee

        So in other words, they were not that far:
        – 2.7 million BB10
        – 3.7 million WP8

        • Viipottaja

          What’s the WP8 3.7 million number?

          • jiipee

            During the first quarter 2013 we shipped 6.1 million Smart Devices units, of which 5.6 million units were Lumia products and 0.5 million units were Symbian products. In the first quarter 2013, approximately two-thirds of our Lumia volumes were Windows Phone 8-based products.”


            That is ofcourse comparing Nokia 1-3/13 and BB 3-5/13 ie two months do not overlap. They are not fully comparable. Is the Q2 normally better or worse period in terms of seasonality?

            • Janne

              I believe calendar Q1 is usually the worst quarter, so BB in that sense has an easier “Q1” because for them it is 3-5/13 for “Q1/14″… Nokia’s Q1 is calendar Q1.

              • jiipee

                Could be with one exception – Chinese New Year. Schools are closing in June in Europe?

                Nokia will benefit for the new launches a lot. How is the BBs global availability? Ive only read the intial plans for Q10 a while ago.

                I wouldnt put too much emphasis on the head to head comparison. The nature of BB is more of a proxy of doing ok, not winning Nokia.

                • Janne

                  BB’s global roll-out is still ramping up, just like it has been slow for Nokia as well. I think Q10 numbers are in these results from non-U.S. locations, with U.S. only now coming on board for Q10…

                  Q5 is now being reviewed and rolled out, too expensive still to some people, but cheaper than Q10. There is also talk of a phabletty A10, I guess for Q3-Q4 quarters?

                  • jiipee

                    BB I can understand, but Id like to learn more on why Nokia suddenly has problems with ramp up.

                    There would be some interesting job opening at Nokia currently with possibly access to old sales and profit data. Maybe I should apply 😉

                    • Janne

                      Indeed, Nokia has had plenty of issues with ramp-up.

                      Nokia did say that for WP8 they were constrained by choice though, fear of excess inventory and economical frugality being a part of it.

                      But why so slow in global ramp-up over the past two years? They have been much slower overall than I expected.

                    • Random Random

                      Nokia started to lose too much key personnel in 2009 and some people say that Nokia has serious issues with manufacturing process with very advanced phones with lots of extremely small components.

                      The last claim is just a rumor and probably nothing to be taken seriously. Still I wonder if there is something to that?

                    • jiipee

                      Could be that Nokia got careful after having trouble selling WP7 devices. Also HTC had supply problems and they were probably related to camera tech – not soc. If I recall right, they have themselves said that they have fallen to tier 2 or 3 customer in the eyes of suppliers due to lower volumes.

                      The first exodus was already before 2009, when the big stock options were realized. The second exodus was in 2009 as you say.

                      Those problems with manufacturing are news to me. Have to ask a friend, if it was true in the past.

                    • Janne

                      Also Nokia has said this spring the lead time to some components in high-end Lumias is 16-20 weeks. Some components they had ordered too few compared to realized higher demand…

                    • Random Random

                      One reason for serious problems in ramp up is the downsizing of the Salo operations.

                      Nokia started to take serious hit already in 2009 or 2010 because of that and the ramp up issues escalated in 2011.

                      The reason?

                      Why they had the Salo operations for manufacturing back in the days? That’s the reason or at last one major one.

                    • jiipee

                      So you are saying that the slow ramp up is due to the existence of Salo factory. I cant really understand the link between those. Salo was a test bed to some higher price products and was kept at least partially due to lower level of industrial espionage. In the end that operation was mainly run by Foxconn resources.

                      I would understand better, if the problem lies in the sut down of all western manufacturing in short intervals.

      • Maybe

        I said for BB10 only 2 devices with 2.7 Million devices
        and Lumia WP8 3.7 million with 5 devices.

  • edi_opteron

    Indeed, as Maybe said, BB delivers only 2 new products whereas Nokia comes with alot of Lumias with wide spectrum price tags.
    Another thing about BB is that the company pays nothing as licensing fees unlike Nokia.
    Lets be honest. Bb10 is much more better than WP8 but it’s no match with MeeGo-Harmattan. When MeeGo was debuted on N9 it was a full grown up OS. Needless to say that it plowed on every single title. So it is well known! Just unlike WP.
    Although it was a new born OS,it could grow very fast. Nokia can even crash BB Q10 market share with MeeGo, remember the N950? MeeGo features are extremely unique. Nokia is trying hard to implement those features in Asha and Lumia phones like swipe, glance and et cetera . So MeeGo had not WP limitations. It does not need a whole major update like Blue update for WP to add some features like file manager(still it’s unclear) or screen resolution or Quad core CPU(i don’t care about specs because it’s MeeGo not the laggy Android). Also there was a possibility of running Android apps.
    So by any measures MeeGo was a better chance and still it is.
    unofficial statistics said N9 out sold WP7 devices in 2011 and even 2012 even though it was not sold in major markets. It is a true differentiation OS not only on smartphones but also tablets and TVs.
    I think BB has done well. This corp. Is not supported by MS billions in TV ads nor carriers offers, so it’s logical.
    Q2 for Nokia is a vital period for long term strategy.last Quarter Nokia sold around 7 million Lumias( wp8 and wp7 combined), this sales ratio is pretty weak comparing to Nokia performance in late 2010! If the Q2 results indicated sales below 15-20 million lumias, then a new CEO with a new vision is vital. Even if it costs Nokia to sell some of its devisions.
    sorry for this long comment 🙂

    • Janne


      Well, comparing first two BB10 quarters to first two Lumia quarters, both had only one model initially and then two models available. The number of devices sold, for BB10 and Lumia, in their respective quarters (with both 1 and 2 devices available) are surprisingly similar. Considering the expanding smartphone market BB did relatively worse, but on the other hand BB is a smaller player, so from that point Nokia did relatively worse… in the end, both shipped surprisingly similar number of new devices – both with one or two devices available only.

      It seems like it takes time to start a new ecosystem. It is hard, especially when you are starting late like Nokia and BB did.

      • Janne

        And just to clarify, when Lumia launched it only had Lumia 800 for the first partial quarter with Lumia 710 following the next quarter.

        • edi_opteron

          Well said. Nokia needs to sell so many to stay alive whereas BB isn’t.
          Comparing Lumia800&710 with Z10 and Q10 is not that accurate IMHO. It was 2011 but these are 2013’s results. Industry has improved dramatically. Samsung shipped 10M in it’s first week. Samsung was not that hefty in 2011.
          Again, Lumias were immensely benefited from ads and discounts but BB10 devices… Not.
          I should add that cheap BBs are coming ( not sure about cheap iphones) so they will be a direct threat to low cost Lumias and Asha line-up. Remember Meltemi?
          it’s all about bad strategy and loss of confidence. Still, there’s a turn around possibility with MeeGo ( harmattan or sailfish )

          • jiipee

            Are there any hints of which lower price points are BB targeting?

            • Capedonut

              Yup, according to Bgr, the price for the q5 is £320 sim free in the uk . So that could be a hard sell

              • jiipee

                Ouch, that doesnt help much. They need to get cheaper than that to be able to sell to sell to the majority of white collar workers.

    • Otto

      “even though it was not sold in major markets.”
      Really? Lumia launch (Q4 2011) was in France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and the UK.
      And N9? 23 countries including small insignificant places like China, Australia, Russia (and of course Finland where Nokia provenly sells well).
      So what do we know? When Lumia 800 came out in Finland, N9 disappeared from Operator top 10 sold models lists and never came back even those were sold side-by-side. Lumia 800 was most sold single handset in Finland 2012. Sure, it’s just Finland but come on – Lumia launched in 6 markets and N9 in 23 markets including Russia and China – not major markets?

      And for your “unofficial statistics said N9 out sold WP7 devices in 2011 and even 2012”, I’m pretty sure I’ve read multiple blogs pointing that AllAboutSymbian misread of quarterly results false. Try googling for “N9 did not outsell lumia” and you’ll get to some.

      • jiipee

        I dont believe N9 sold Lumia, ever.

        It did sell well though given the push and communication. China and probably Russia were quite natural to get N9 instead of WP since the latter did not have localization ready.

        The whole discussion is more or less irrelevant since one is a device announced dead end and limited support whereas the other is said to the be cornerstone of company’s offering. Finland as a case example, go and ask the sales channels, what kind of support was offered.

      • edi_opteron

        It’s very impressing that you ignore the whole comment and just click on this sentence. Reluctance.
        Major markets are evaluated by the potential costumers with high purchase power parity NOT population nor country size. By your measures India must be a great smaetphone market rather than emerging one.
        N9 was NOT sold in the UK, France, Italy, and the US.
        and try this one, google ” N9 outsold Lumia 800″.
        Do you hate MeeGo or what? China mobile with 700M subscriber wanted to adop MeeGo as the main platform . They know MeeGo better than me and you.
        If Lumia was in the top ten then N9 won titles like design, camera and the cellphone of the year. Enough saying

        • Random Random

          As the main platform?

          What does that mean?

          Main platform for trade shows? Main platform to replace every single phone they sell? Main platform for experimenting with few thousand customers?

          That actually means nothing.

          Did you learn that from Tomi Ahonen? Tomi Ahonen spreads disinformation.

        • Otto

          > try this one, google ” N9 outsold Lumia 800″.
          > Do you hate MeeGo or what?

          Actually I like MeeGo. But I do live in real world where a phone that is declared to be only of its kind on a platform that is declared dead simply cannot outsell the phones declared as the beginning of a new era.
          And I did try your Google, thank you very much. All results either lead to AAS as source:

          (in the Disqus)
          or then they refer to TA who uses AAS as source. But AAS discussion already has the claim debunked so I fail to follow your reasoning.

          • Random Random

            I think I was one of the first to question that thoroughly enough effectively ending most of those claims here in the MNB.

            Back in the days it was common to claim how Nokia sold so many N9 handsets in the very first quarter they started shipping it. Once that claim was questioned enough, people stopped claiming that.

            Today almost no one any longer claims that Nokia sold 1,75M N9 phones in the first quarter N9 started shipping. Actually, even Tomi Ahonen ceased to do that. That pretty much proves why insisting on facts matters.

            Even Tomi Ahonen pretty much gave up.

            Just because of the truth.

            • jiipee

              Why does it even matter how much Nokia did sell N9s through the initial quarter, I dont get it. They were also somewhat supply constrained – not even close to as bad a with 920.

              N9 still sold in millions without global release and full support and sales channel knowing that it is one of its kind (ie wanted to avoid inventories as much as possible).

              • Janne

                jiipee: I guess the point of those N9 sales figure claims was to point out how much better N9 sold than Lumia – as proof of the failure that Lumia is/was. Obviously Elop at AGM (where he really can’t lie) put an end to that fallacy by clearly stating Lumia sold better than N9 very quickly.

                That said, N9 might well have been an easier sell to begin with for Nokia – had they put their full might behind it. The big question mark, of course, is what would have happened after that. There was no Qt mobile app ecosystem at the time and Intel was far form an ideal partner.

                We know what Nokia chose, but MeeGo too could – of course – have worked. It is very hard to say whether or not they could have managed it. Maybe. Maybe not. Let’s watch the BB10 proxy and see how BB manages.

                • jiipee

                  I dont get the logic of either ‘side’. Everyone knows that N9’s sales were not stellar and everyone should know by know that WP7 was disappointment. We get to hear the facts latest 2015 😉

                  I am using N9 and I know how bad the app situation is especially related to games. (we did in fact some research, what it would take to port some games from Android and would there be a business case). Your comment “There was no Qt mobile app ecosystem at the time and Intel was far form an ideal partner.” already contains results from the chosen strategy to a degree:

                  Did Nokia push Meego development? Did the interest die immediately Elop told in public that there is no future for Meego.

                  What we know is that
                  – Based on industry reports Meego and Qt were both ahead of BB in developer interest, though behind WP (eg Developer Economics survey)
                  – Intel might have been a not-so-good partner, but they had their own app/developer program, BB does not have similar partners
                  – Nokia did not apply their plans to push developer interest (see Konttori’s blog)
                  – Nokia had much bigger installed base than BB, when N9 was out (it may be that porting apps from Symbian may have been pain as a-troll-formerly-known-as-spede has claimed earlier, but we have cases recorded in TMO where porting from Harmattan to both Symbian and BB have not been that difficult)
                  – BB ends up with more than 100.000 non_Adroid apps in their store (dont know about their quality) in a year after releasing developer device.

                  I claim that based on known facts Nokia had a lot stronger position in relation to BB regarding apps. (Now former-Spede can tell us how everyone hated Symbian and Qt was not compatible and Nokia had lost brand in the high-end and how Nokia had betrayed all devs). There can be ofcourse facts that have not been revealed that would explain it all.

    • Random Random


      Let’s be honest.

      You have failed to understand the mobile for example in almost every sentence. You probably should upgrade you source from Tomi Ahonen. He spreads misinformation.

      Nokia never shipped MeeGo phone.

      N9 hardly had a full grown OS. By OS I mean the whole package including the UI and the user experience. N9 had a huge amount of features missing when it shipped and it never had even all that you talk about. For example it was not possible to run Android applications. Apps it doesn’t have but I guess you were talking about applications anyway. Android compatibility was not included with the OS but with a 3rd party application.

      I don’t address the rest of the errors.

  • Janne

    Having peeked at the CrackBerry podcast, they were drinking Zambuca there “because they need it”.

    I think we should take heed and prepare a bottle or two for the Nokia quarterly results… 😉

    • jiipee

      Last business day of the month. There wont be big suprises, the outlook should be accurate.

      • Janne

        Nokia has a history of profit warnings 10-11 days after the end of the quarter.

        That said, I’m not necessarily expecting anything bad(der), I was just appreciating the great humor and attitude BB followers have received the tough news with. Kudos to them.

        Zambuca for the Q2 numbers! Maybe a bottle of champagne in the ice as well, just in case? 😉

        • jiipee

          Ill settle for cold beer, had too many shots a while ago…

          When is the D-day? Im hoping for good news, the Renesas stuff was already bad enough. Luckily Nokia’s partner in Asha training, Futurice, won the best place to work title in Europe for SMEs today 😉

          • Janne

            Did I see 18th July somewhere… it would be a Thursday, so it would fit… But haven’t confirmed.

            • jiipee

              Jep, 18th. I’ll be somewhere in the Eastern Finland close to Russian border that day, so might not be following the presentation. Prepare good notes to be posted here 😉

  • Viipottaja

    Not great and a lot lower than at least Noki had predicted.

    Still early days but it is lonely out there all alone for BB… We’ll see how it goes. Luckily for them their operating costs are probably reasonably low and they still have some cash (pure guesses on both accounts, did not bother to read the source story let alone their report 😀 ).

    • Janne

      BB’s cash seemed to go up, 3.1 billion (is that U.S. or Canadian dollars?). Some say they have more cash than in years?

      Stock was down 25%, that was quite big.

      • Viipottaja

        wow, that’s quite the hit on the stock price.. next quarter is probably even tougher, unless the wider availability of BB10 models helps enough.

        • jiipee

          They’ve done really bad in the Investor relations department. Such a drop tells a lot of the quality of their financial communication.

          • Janne

            The CrackBerry guys (good site to follow I think) are ranting that BB grouped too many bad/irrelevant news on their investor call, e.g. BB7 device announcement and the PlayBook not getting BB10 news. Those aren’t instilling confidence in BB, they just add to negative noise…

            They are probably right announcing those separately might have been better, when all the eyes wouldn’t have been so much on every word coming out of BB’s mouth.

    • noki

      Yes my prediction is off remember I noted 3 to 4 million and they only sold 2.7 soo an average error of 800 k Q10 was only available for a month during this quarter so I expected 1 million of q10’s so probably the z10 sales are a bit down to 1.7 million…was not a massive error but an error still…

  • arts

    in light of the new tradition by non nokia fans to come here and post “sell out urls” here is one by blackberry! 😉

    oh and the obligated moan: ROFL, all the claims of a sellout but turns out to be absolute trash!


    Whats interesting is all the BB folks who previously have said that Nokia got it terribly wrong and that BB will show how its done, are now comparing BB10 sales to early Nokia’s WP7.8 sales, and saying that BB can also gain just like Nokia is gaining.

    One day we where all being told that BB will outshine Nokia and leave it in the dust.Now we are being told BB can grow like Nokia.

    Sure its still to early to tell, but the first signs are horrendous,

    and while WP7.8 evolved to WP8 what will BB10 evolve too?
    and many would be buyers of WP waited until WP8 come out, what are BB10 buyers waiting for?
    and where is BB’s world wide ecosystem ? (sans the android ports)
    and its tiny ecosystem is not related to a desktop OS, like WIN8 or OSX or Chrome.

    For me i see BB continue to decline until it becomes cheap enough to buyout, just Like HP bought Palm.

    • who knows

      Yup, it doesn’t bode well for BlackBerry when the trajectory of sales is constant; just about a million sold BB10 in the first month with a constant sale of just under a million per month in this last quarter (2.7 million in a full quarter). That is in addition of increased availability in number of markets and the release of the new model (Q10).

      With the constant decline in subscribers in combination with the slow roll-out it’s going to be tough for BlackBerry. They need to hit more price points faster.

      • n8thebest

        It will be extremely hard for them to hit lower price points, due to BB10’s requirement for dual core and very high RAM in order to run at acceptable performance.

        Also consumers are not embracing the clunky interface of BB10. Customer satisfaction for BB10 so far is not that great, it is clearly below customer satisfaction of Windows Phone.

    • n8thebest

      Exactly. Blackberry as a company will either go bankrupt, or get bought up in pieces. That’s what I feel is going to happen.

      We are seeing now that Nokia ultimately made the right choice.