Nokia Q4 Earnings Released; €198 Million Lost from Devices & Services, 8.2 Million Lumias Sold

| January 23, 2014 | 322 Replies

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Nokia have just released their quarterly earnings report for Q4 2013, and although they previously announced that the devices and services would be listed under “discontinued operations” the report gives no indication of how many devices were sold; however the D&S net profit was NEGATIVE €198 Million; a poor display for the possibly last quarter. Profit from the non-discontinued services increased to €408 Million, up from €344 last quarter; with positive results from HERE maps, NSN and the Advanced technologies sector.

Nokia blamed the poor performance of the D&S division on poor sales of both high and low end phones, as well as decreased ASP of their devices:

The decline in discontinued operations net sales in 2013 was primarily due to lower Mobile Phones net sales and, to a lesser extent, lower Smart Devices net sales. The decline in Mobile Phones net sales was due to lower volumes and ASPs, affected by competitive industry dynamics, including intense smartphone competition at increasingly lower price points and intense competition at the low end of our product portfolio. The decline in Smart Devices net sales was due to lower volumes, affected by competitive industry dynamics including the strong momentum of competing smartphone platforms, as well as our portfolio transition from Symbian products to Lumia products.

Update:

According to the Verge, Nokia sold 8.8 Million Lumia devices this past quarter (not exactly sure where that number came from):

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Source

Category: Lumia, Nokia, Symbian, Windows Phone

About the Author ()

Hey, my name's Ali- Currently a fifth (and final) year Dental Student from Chicago; studying in Jordan. I love all sorts of gadgets almost as much as I love my cookies! Be sure to follow my Twitter handle @AliQudsi and Subcribe to my Youtube for the latest videos - no pressure. Thanks.

Comments (322)

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  1. Dragmeister says:

    Nokia was right to sell Devices & Services to Microsoft , because was loosing money recently. Even I’m Nokia fan myself, having the last tree flagship handset like: Nokia Lumia 1020, Lumia 925 and L 920.

  2. jiipee says:

    =D “as well as our portfolio transition from Symbian products to Lumia products.”

    Still in transformation, MR Elop? ;)

    • Random Random says:

      Well.

      The competition started long before Nokia. It’s now 6,5 years since iOS started and almost almost 5,5 years since Android was launched.

      Nokia should have killed Symbian in 2008 in order to survive with the mobile phones, but they failed to do that and this is what happened when Nokia gave the competition to start long before them.

      • zlutor says:

        any relevance to comment you have commented? ;-)

        • Random Random says:

          Yes.

          Nokia started the transition from Symbian too late.

          This is the reason why it’s still an ongoing process.

          It should be quite obvious even for you.

          • jiipee says:

            No its not. Nokia killed Symbian Q1 2011. That is 10 mobile equivalent years ago.

            Symbian is history, past – let it go to rest in peace Random.

            • Janne says:

              Well, didn’t Nokia just mention Symbian themselves? Symbian certainly didn’t cease to exist Q1/2011. We would have much less 808 trolls here if it did. :)

              I guess they did that to account for year-to-year changes. This time last year Nokia still sold some amount of Symbian devices. I wonder how many Symbian devices are still sold today? Some are for sure. I wouldn’t be surprised if Nokia still had some in some warehouses or at least some distributors somewhere.

              • jiipee says:

                yes they did and there I started with commenting: “Still in transformation, MR Elop?”

              • Marc Aurel says:

                According Nokia Q3 2012 was the last quarter of “significant” Symbian device sales. Some 808s and some corporate phones (E7, E6 and 701) have been sold after that from old inventory, but even compared to the less than stellar WP sales they have been pretty insignificant.

          • zlutor says:

            “It should be quite obvious even for you.” – wow, what a polite man(?)…

            It is clear – even for me, you know – 2013 was the last year Nokia produced Symbian phone.

            Mentioning it in the report is kind of O.K. even though it should have zero effect in Q4. it was not so elegant and seems to be an excuse but literally true.

            But your comment on jiipee’s one has nothing to do with this fact, it was just your regular mantra about how bad Symbian was and what Nokia missed to do ages before.

            So, your comment had no relevance and it is clear – even for me… :-)

            • Random Random says:

              It should be obvious even for you about what jiipee was talking about when he said “Still in transformation, MR Elop?”

              It was a transition from Symbian to WP.

              Now when a transition from Symbian to WP was talked about, it’s more than relevant to talk about Symbian.

              Yes.

              This should be obvious even for you.

              • jiipee says:

                you could argue Symbian as irrelevant as this point by thinking about, if Lumia’s had started to sell. If the growth was as expeted, there would be no need to mention Symbian at all.

  3. Janne says:

    Symbian still gets an honorable mention. Yay!

    No Lumia sales figure was mentioned, by the way, as really nothing much was said about the discontinued operations phones were now placed in.

    So no data point for us trend watchers. :( I bet you it was mediocre… ;)

    • zlutor says:

      ‘I bet you it was mediocre…” – you might be too optimistic… :-)

      “On a sequential basis, discontinued operations unit volumes increased in the fourth quarter 2013 due to higher Mobile Phones unit volumes, partially offset by lower Smart Devices unit volumes. – See more at: http://press.nokia.com/2014/01/23/nokia-corporation-q4-and-full-year2013-interim-report/#sthash.88frKuhS.dpuf

      If Lumia volumes declined in Christmas period compared to Q3 then it indicates something doesn’t go well…

      • Janne says:

        True that. I wasn’t exactly being serious, there… :)

      • tom says:

        that’s right, Lumia sold 8.2 million in Q4, down from 8.8 million in Q3 and Q4 was holiday quarter. Awesome. So much for mediocre progress.

        • Janne says:

          0.6 million drop in the circumstances (Nokia Lumia brand basically osbourned in September and real lack of availability of new products, 525/1320/1520/2520 only very limited availability in some countries) wasn’t good, but I don’t think it is a disaster for mediocre progress alone.

          Nokia’s phone business loosing its independence and the tumult that results, overall, can be detrimental to the mediocre progress overall of course. My mediocre progress was always contingent on Nokia being able to continue the progress independently, you can check my past estimates if you wish. I considered acquisition a risk for years as the business value languished.

          The time from the D&S sale announcement to the point when it is fully running and solidified under Microsoft is a time of significant risk. Does the operator support waver under such times? Do developers feel risk and withhold support? Does Microsoft do something drastic to undermine the progress, like drop the Lumia brand? Does Microsoft continue the business in a different way as Nokia did, and is that for better or for worse?

          Only time will tell.

          I still consider WP and the products that currently are known as Nokia Lumia to be headed for mediocre progress, a third place on the market – a sustainable third place. However, since there was an acquisition, it can and does of course add risks to the process.

          I bet you Q4/2013 Lumia progress would have been better had Nokia decided to sell NSN instead and not sell D&S.

  4. nn says:

    The reports give indication on smartphone sales

    On a year-on-year basis, discontinued operations unit volumes declined in the fourth quarter 2013 due to lower Mobile Phones unit volumes, partially offset by higher Smart Devices unit volumes. On a sequential basis, discontinued operations unit volumes increased in the fourth quarter 2013 due to higher Mobile Phones unit volumes, partially offset by lower Smart Devices unit volumes.

    That is, they sold less martphones in Q4 than in Q3.

    • wp8lob says:

      Does ‘smart devices’ include Asha?

        • wp8lob says:

          From q3 report:

          “Smartphone Volumes
          In the third quarter 2013, Devices & Services total smartphone volumes increased sequentially to 14.7 million units,
          compared to 11.7 million units in the second quarter 2013, composed of:
           8.8 million Lumia smartphones in Smart Devices
           5.9 million Asha full-touch smartphones in Mobile Phones”

          Did something change?

          • nn says:

            Nothing changed, as you quoted it Ashas are counted under “Mobile Phones” not “Smart Devices”. Last year they introduced new marketing term “Smartphone Volumes”, which summed Ashas and Lumias, but that was just for the headlines, not for the real accounting.

            • rustyknight17 says:

              Nn , Janne , sorry but the Asha Touch phones were listed as smartphones , I read the report . Speaking of. , owning an 808 makes one a troll ??
              Random , kind of odd then that in 2010 Symbian sales were increasing , albeit at a slower rate than the market … And this was s60 !! That said , Symbian couldn’t continue indefinitely , that’s why apparently it was planned to merge with Meego .
              As to Lumias , as Paul Thurrott observed in an article , they’re not doing well on the high end , where the real profit is ,not good .

              • Random Random says:

                Symbian started to collapse in 2009 and by the end of 2011 it had collapsed almost completely.

                Almost all of the high end sales were lost in 2010.

              • Janne says:

                Asha may have been referred to as smartphones, but they definitely were not part of Smart Devices part of D&S, instead they always were a part of Mobile Phones part.

                Unless that changed in Q4/2013, I’d say Asha touch is not included in the number.

                • Marc Aurel says:

                  I agree. The Q4 2013 report specifically mentions “Smart Devices” and NOT “smartphones”. The former clearly does not include Asha full touch devices, since they have never been part of the “Smart Devices” category in any previous report.

      • zlutor says:

        I think no – not in this report.

        If yes and volume is still declined – then it is a pure catastrophe…

        • Janne says:

          Q4/2013 Lumia sales is said to be higher than Q4/2012 4.4 million and lower than Q3/2013 8.8 million, so that’s the ballpark in which Lumia sales for Q4/2013 are. Unfortunately it seems we have to wait until Microsoft decides to tell us more during 2014 to get some new, real datapoints. A range of 4.5-8.7 million isn’t really telling much, other than failure to grow volumes.

          One also has to wonder how much Nokia’s decision to sell D&S affected their Q4/2013 sales and also their sales efforts. Like on February 11th, I guess it can be assumed some effect is there. Probably not much. Perhaps more importantly, Nokia failed to produce the big hitters (525 and 1320) in volumes for Q4/2013 – and the global availability of 1520 (and 2520, not that it matters) was very late and abysmal. The same sad lack of availability that has plagued Lumia since ever.

          Still, obviously, not a good quarter for Lumia sales and some vindication for BoD’s decision to focus on NSN instead.

          • nn says:

            If you stop ignoring Symbian, Q4/21012 were 6.6 millions. So it’s somewhere between 6.6 and 8.8 millions.

            It tells you that WP is bogged down to lower, single digit market share territory and that absolutely nothing changed on that point. But you refused tu accept that fact before, so I’m not surprised you continue to do so now.

            • Janne says:

              If you stop ignoring Symbian, Q4/21012 were 6.6 millions. So it’s somewhere between 6.6 and 8.8 millions.

              Ah, if so, thanks for the clarification. I failed to load the PDF from Nokia, it just kept spinning… Many people interested in it, I guess. :)

              It tells you that WP is bogged down to lower, single digit market share territory and that absolutely nothing changed on that point. But you refused tu accept that fact before, so I’m not surprised you continue to do so now.

              I don’t refuse to accept the state of things. I do refuse to accept the notion that WP is a crappy OS rejected by customers not going anywhere. I stand by my opinion that (unless Microsoft changes something drastic) it remains on-course for a lasting, mediocre place on the marketplace. How much Q4/2013 was affected by Nokia “osbourning” their D&S business in September is hard to tell. How much it affected Nokia’s push and ramp-up of new products, for example.

              If WP fails, it will be easy enough to tell over the coming years, though so don’t you worry. It certainly looks like Android is beating most of the competitors quite handily. It almost makes one wish Nokia had gone Maemo full-blast in 2005, doesn’t it? ;)

              • Jiipee says:

                I don’t thin that the OS choose would have been enough. They first should have changed the organizational culture and competences to match the strategy they had in the past. The correct OS selection would have been a result. That wouldn’t have been easy task especially, when the organizationperformed so well financially.

              • Marc Aurel says:

                WP may not be crap, but it still isn’t good enough to produce profits. MS will have to work miracles if they want to make WP profitable in 2014, although like many analysts have said, they probably do not care about near or even mid-term profitability. MS wants to sell their ecosystem including their cloud services, and if the handset division never makes a profit, who cares as long as the company continues to make healthy profits as a whole.

                • Jiipee says:

                  I doubt it is only about the OS. If I was part of the consideration launch WP devices, I would be careful due to MSs history of killing platforms and MSs total control of the ecosystem. For instance, they’ve done some harmful stuff towards their implementation partners within Dynamics ecosystem – pricing, contact terms and the partners just need to live with it.

                  • Janne says:

                    All big ones, Apple, Google, even Nokia have a long history of killing things and people just having to adapt, though.

          • capedonut says:

            The problem in my opinion is that they haven’t really released a new high end mainstream phone since the 920,

            • capedonut says:

              …the 925 and 928 being merely derivatives

            • Janne says:

              Not sure how much the high-end Lumia sales alone affected anything, but I agree overall Nokia’s portfolio for Q4 was quite old. Lumia 1320 missed it entirely, Lumia 525/1520/2520 with only limited and very late availability. So Nokia was facing Q4 mostly with products released in Q1-Q2/2013.

              • Bloob says:

                WP sales have been pretty constant since WP8 launched, if you look at the market share per price point, high end has slowed down (which is understandable with only variants being released), low end’s been pretty stable so far.

                Good thing they sold (/are selling) D&S to MS, the WP-gamble didn’t pay out.

                • dss says:

                  It was pretty obvious that it won’t work from the moment they signed the deal. It didn’t make any sense from Nokia’s perspective unless selling the DS parts to MS was the plan all along.

                  Most of the optimism was fanboy based..

                  • Random Random says:

                    Can you name one manufacturer who was able to grab enough sales in a year for a new platform? Just one manufacturer with strong enough sales in the last 5 years.

                    It’s not possible because attracting new customers is extremely slow.

                  • Noki says:

                    since it all went all terribly bad they are left with the argument that anything else would have been worse, far worse….

                    Fact remains WP remains to this day the only MOBILE OS that never made a profit for any of its OEM’s NEVER! NEVER!

                    • Capedonut says:

                      An alternative strategy would have had to be far superior compared to the current for Nokia to stand a chance. That is what I see as unlikely

                    • Random Random says:

                      Yes.

                      Nokia didn’t have good alternatives.

                      MeeGo was too little too late and Android was also a ship sailed long time ago.

                    • ZiPA says:

                      Tizen? Sailfish? Ubuntu Phone? Firefox OS?

                      And – depending how you sum up the totals – Maemo & Meego.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Those were not alternatives in 2011. MeeGo was, but it was a poor one since the Qt strategy had failed.

                    • ZiPA says:

                      Sorry, my previous post was in response to this:

                      “Fact remains WP remains to this day the only MOBILE OS that never made a profit for any of its OEM’s”

                    • Janne says:

                      ZiPA: Of course Noki was hyperventilating his hyperbole there. Nothing new under the sun.

                      WP is hardly the worst succeeding mobile platform in the history of the industry as he suggests.

                      But it is true WP came at a time when Android and iOS had already cemented a lead. That reality faced (and would always have faced) MeeGo too in 2011.

                      Now, had Nokia gone Maemo in 2005 the story could be different…

                    • Random Random says:

                      Yes.

                      ZiPA. I made a mistake.

                      You have a very good point there. There are lots of mobile operating systems making only losses.

                    • Noki says:

                      ZiPA Tizen? Sailfish? Ubuntu Phone?
                      don’t have OEM’s so they did not made profits or losses for then since there are none, its mostly internal homegrown OS’s based on open software but still for their respective companies use so far, wen/if hey have OEMS we might judge…
                      Firefox yes it does have and Telefonica seams quite happy with it and as apparently been an profitable operation for them.

                      So yeah, so far he only OS that never ever produced profits for its OEM’s is ……. WP.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      Noki, that’s quite arrogant claim.

                      You even don’t know if Nokia’s actual WP manufacturing is profitable or not. You just assume it can’t be because D&S is making losses.

                      It’s quote obvious that D&S has lots of workforce and while all of those may not be needed for the current generation of WP production, they can be needed for future products.

                      Have you ever calculated how much developing MeeGo cost? It was probably something between 500 and 1000 million. And while the actual unit sales were never released, it’s quite probnable that MeeGo has never made any profits for anyone manufacturing it.

                      There has been companies manufacturing MeeGo based products.

                      Yet we haven’t heard these companies reporting profits from the MeeGo based products.

                      Yes?

          • zlutor says:

            “Q4/2013 Lumia sales is said to be higher than Q4/2012 4.4 million and lower than Q3/2013 8.8 million”

            It is really bad. Q3 is nothing special, ‘everybody’ is on vacation but Q4 includes Christmas period generating traditionally the strongest sales in quite significant part of the world.

            If Nokia missed it (and it did in fact) then it is a catastrophe – whatever the reason behind was…

            • arts says:

              I wonder if the news of Nokia exiting the phone market being released so early have any role to play in this eh?

              ;)

              • Janne says:

                Well, those who believe February 11th killed Symbian sales, must also believe September 2013 news killed Lumia sales.

                In – probably closer to reality – my view, both events likely had some effect on sales and most importantly effect on Nokia’s internal efforts re-aligning and thus hurting sales additionally, but probably not quite as drastically as some like to suggest.

                • jiipee says:

                  “Well, those who believe February 11th killed Symbian sales, must also believe September 2013 news killed Lumia sales.”
                  I would challenge that. No-one has arguea that WP is killed and no longer supported ie. Nokia apps will be updated, OS updated, APIs updated, new devices emerging etc. Those are not comparable.

                  Maybe one exception to the rule: the Lumia tablet is probably on burning platform.

                  • Shaun says:

                    That is a key difference. Symbian and MeeGo were EOLd on Feb 11th whereas in theory Microsoft owning both the hardware and OS and going forward combined should have been a good thing.

                    • Janne says:

                      Sure, it is a key difference for the platform, but not necessarily a key difference for Nokia’s internal efforts and those of their partners on making, promoting and selling the devices.

                      If Nokia Lumia would soon be a thing of the past, how would that affect Nokia Lumia advertising, Nokia Lumia operator promotion, Nokia Lumia retail presence etc… You get the picture.

                    • arts says:

                      Huh, i guess everybody is not as rational as you Shaun. ;)

                      If all those potential buyers of symbian/meego products have been more rational,

                      AND

                      accepted that symbian is going to be supported till 2016,

                      AND

                      accepted that although the product bears the NOKIA name, is going to maintained by micro oopps, i mean accenture,

                      symbian sales wont have crash wont it? ;)

                  • Janne says:

                    One of the largest (and most believable) arguments in support of February 11th killing Symbian sales was never about lack of future support for the platform – but operators and retailers backing out on the platform.

                    It is not hard to imagine the D&S sale news made some operators and retailers apprehensive about deals, promotions and whatnots with Nokia Lumia emblazoned on them, if next week everything might be replaced with Microsoft Xkin.

                • Shaun says:

                  If those announcements are the cause then taking them at face value…

                  On Feb 11th Nokia’s customers didn’t want Windows Phone.

                  In September 2013 Nokia’s customers didn’t want Microsoft to run the hardware too.

                  Just sayin’

                  Well played Nokia though if they saw this coming and offloaded it to Microsoft.

          • kues says:

            We can narrow down the 4.5m to 8.8m range- first it was 6.6m Smart Devices Q4/12 ;)
            Net sales are said to be about flat QoQ for Mobile Phones. So Smart Devices net sales are at about 1144m for Q4/13. Thus the lower range of Smart Devices sold is at about 8m (1144m/143[SD ASP Q3/13]=8m). SD ASP is said to be lower QoQ, but lowest possible is about 1144m/8.8m=130€.
            Considering the Highend additions to the product range and the SD ASP declining from 157€ to 143€ Q2 to Q3 2013 i would estimate an SD ASP of 135€- so about 8.5m Smart Devices sold.

            • Janne says:

              Yes, I missed the 6.6M point. So the Q4/2013 Lumia sales range is 6.7M-8.7M.

              My excuse: I failed to download the PDF from Nokia themselves, server overload.

          • kues says:

            The same sad lack of availability that has plagued Lumia since ever.

            As “approximately EUR 50 million of net allowances related to excess component inventory, future purchase commitments and an inventory revaluation” are reported i don’t think availability really is problem anymore. Especially if i consider the dumping prices for Lumia 520.

            • jiipee says:

              and dumping prices of 920.

              • Janne says:

                What has 520/920 availability has to do with availability of new models? The phones Nokia was peddling in Q4/2013 were mostly released in Q1-Q3/2013. New models were very poorly available.

                Lumia 920 was launched in Q3/2012.

            • Janne says:

              kues: Availability of Lumias in general is not a problem anymore, but availability of new Lumia models is abysmal as ever. As as Mr. Osbourne can tell, that hurts your sales.

              Just take as an example of Nokia’s Q4 announced devices: Try to buy a Lumia 525, a 1320, a 1520 and a 2520 in any country of the world today. Just pick any country. I bet you can’t.

              This has been the sorry story since the dawn of Lumia. Global ramp-up of new models abysmal.

              • Shaun says:

                Nokia have ALWAYS been abysmal at launching new models. How long did we wait for the N8 after announcement or the E7?

                That’s what Elop said he was going to fix and at numerous points claimed to have fixed it. He didn’t.

                • Janne says:

                  Nokia has often been abysmal at launching new models, that is true. The Symbian^3 launch was a bad one, for sure. If we consider how early N8 was announced…

                  Although I’d say with Lumia they have taken things to new levels.

              • kues says:

                Ah, ok you are reffering to the newest models only. Yet still i think it is not relevant as especially 1020, 925, 625 and 520 reached broad availibility around the world in Q4. 1520 and 1320 as phablets are in a different range/segment. And the 525 was announced Nov 26 being hardly relevant for Q4, especially as there is nothing new to it besides more RAM.
                On the other hand e.g. 520 was on sale in Nov/Dez for 99€ (including 19% tax) at Germanys largest electronics retail chains.
                1520 is available now (i think since sometime Dec?) at amazon throughout Europe.

                And WP7 ramp-up was quite fast and availiblity was good 2011/early 2012- but as the WP7 devices didn’t sell well and the enormous writedowns in Q2 and Q3 2012 had to be taken, Nokia simply could no longer afford to ramp-up that fast. Yet still Nokia had to write down 20m in Q3/13 and 50m in Q3/13 again. So i think it’s quite obvious that consumer demand is still lower than expected/planned by Nokia.

                • Janne says:

                  It is true Nokia over-estimated the demand for their WP7 devices. Yet I’d disagree their ramp-up was “quite fast”. It took 6 months for the devices to reach some markets and others they didn’t sell then in at all – and for many markets it took 3-4 months for the WP7 devices to come, while already having been sold elsewhere those months ago.

                  These are eternities in the mobile business. Who wants a 6 months old device when someone else is peddling you a brand new one all the time.

                  Lumia 525 may not have been as relevant for Q4, but I guess it could have been had it launched earlier. Lumia 520 was already quite old at this point, an earlier refresh could have mentally helped sell some more.

                  Look, I’m not disputing the difficulty of selling non-Android (or non-iOS) devices in the current market. It is obvious to any industry watcher. Android is a near-monopoly. But Nokia’s slowness in ramping up Lumia is still one reason why its uptake has been slower than it could have been.

                  Sometimes it takes major effort and money to push into a market. Since Android solidified its place, Nokia could have joined them or needed money to push in an alternative. Apparently they felt they didn’t have enough money for an in-house one (MeeGo) and then not even for WP and finally decided to focus on NSN instead.

                  Microsoft has the kind of money needed to push into a hard market. We’ll see if they manage to fail Nokia’s progress with some stupid moves. Like dropping the Lumia brand, which would be stupid.

    • nn says:

      So after years the story is still the same: WP is crappy OS rejected by consumers no matter how many billions Nokia throws on MS.

      • Janne says:

        WP is not crappy, nor is it rejected by consumers since obviously millions every quarter buy them. But it is true Nokia failed to make a profitable go at it and decided to capitulate. It is hard for anyone not part of the duopoly these days, as it seems.

        • nn says:

          I like the way you blame the failure on Nokia.

          • Janne says:

            I don’t blame the failure only on Nokia. Microsoft could and should have been faster in developing WP. Nokia should have been faster in making their products available globally.

            I think any ecosystem other than Android (and iOS for Apple) will have a very hard time these days, that much is obvious. One could of course blame Nokia for not going Android, but then I’d rather we have competition for the duopoly. Duopolies weren’t good when Microsoft and Apple had one, they aren’t good when Google and Apple have one.

            I have my Jolla right here. Do you?

            • Jiipee says:

              No Jolla here, but 1020. Verkkokauppa didn’t have Jolla and that was the only accepted channel in my case. I couldn’t have invested in beta level SW in any case. Lets hope that the Q1 bug fix is great.

              I could use double-sim phone now – carrying also my N9 during business hours.

              • Janne says:

                Have you noticed how some 3rd party competitions/promotions in Finland have offered Jolla as a prize. I’ve seen at least two of these, one just on radio today on the way to work.

                The idea of Jolla certainly is inviting to Finnish people in this dawn of the post-Nokia-D&S era. I do have to wonder, though, how many people who might apply and win in such competitions know what to expect from Jolla.

                • jiipee says:

                  yes, Ive noticed and have been slightly worried over those. Jolla should for now stick to selling to their own religion and not general public.

                  All more nerdy guys (ie my older brother) are happy with their Jolla, but on the other hand there is criticism in the general public (talked with 2 guys on helsinki metro, scientific analysis ;) ). Well, the other guy was ok with the device in general, but wasnt accustomer to the UI.

        • Random Random says:

          Yes.

          Just like I have been saying, people mostly want Android or iOS based phones.

          It’s also quite obvious that what it comes to Android, people want real Android phones. Not only those wannabe devices with Android compatibility layers. BB is a fine example of this happening.

          • Janne says:

            Yes, and that state of events sucks.

            But we have a comparison from history: Wintel and Apple remained where many other computing platforms fizzled out or failed to gain ground. Many manufacturers that had their own platforms went to Wintel or died away.

            Same has happened in mobile, but I do think there is more room for lasting competition this time around – WP is getting a medicore slice of the pie at least, but I wouldn’t completely rule out some in the Ubuntu/Firefox/Tizen/Sailfish group – these benefit from the nature of FOSS and potential to be embedded by a lot of OEMs, so something might happen there… maybe just wishful thinking on my part, but seeing e.g. smart TVs still a wilderness of many platforms, and the onset of wearables, we may see reasons why more platforms can exist this time around than was the case with two decades of stagnant PC form-factor.

            It doesn’t look good for BB10, though. A lot depends on how BB the company can sustain a business.

            • Jiipee says:

              BB Will die. MS could gain some foothold in business segment thanks to their own business Solutions.

              What comes to Your comment on duopolies, Nokia was in Deep shit With their disastrous product & software mgmt that They should have kept Strategic options open. They didnt (except for the option to sell to MS) and now the business is crewed.

              Waiting for the books, This Story is over.

              (if You Wonder about the uppercases, my Lumia 1020 insertet those and didnt bother to correct. Any hinta to Better battery life and analytics sw are also highly appreciated ;) )

            • Shaun says:

              I have a real problem believing Tizen is anything other than a side bet by Samsung. It’s largely developed in secret by Samsung so calling it a FOSS project sticks in the throat a bit too. Samsung hang heavy over Tizen much like Nokia did over Symbian.

                • Jiipee says:

                  You are forgetting what kind of monster conglomerate Samsung is. If they get it to work, Tizen can be important to them. At least as a plan B. Samsung is in all home electronics and beyond. There can be a major competition between Samsung and Google over home automation, smart homes and internet of things.

                  • Janne says:

                    I’m not forgetting anything, just roughly finding Shaun’s views on Tizen agreeable.

                    I do expect to see Tizen in televisions and cameras more widely at Samsung. Why not even beyond that. But also it can be just a plan B.

                    Will the broaden it to smartphones too? In a significant way and not just a few niche models? Maybe. But then the app ecosystem question becomes much bigger.

            • tom says:

              It gives me immense pleasure to see WP sales decreasing, Now that Nokia is done, let’s see what future holds for it. Obviously, paying customers rejected it wholesale and only 52x is selling at $50 a pop.

        • zlutor says:

          I’m not dare enough to judge whether it is crappy or not – most probably not SO crappy :-) – but if we eliminate L520/L525 sales that we can consider pure attempt to buy market share with no profit (or even loss?) then remains are abysmal…

          People buy L52x because they are made by Nokia – loyalty, still – and (mainly) because they are dirt cheap. Really.
          There is no phone that can compete with it in value/cost ratio and OS was not any driver in this.

          If Nokia would have sold L52x phones with Android – like Normandy – volume would be the same or highers even…

          So, WP business does not seem to be a sustainable one for me…

          • nn says:

            It will be interesting to see what will happen when MS drops the “Nokia” label from these smartphones. No doubt sales will surge.

            • Janne says:

              That “surge” is indeed a risk, especially if Microsoft is stupid and drop the Lumia name. Replace “Nokia” with Lumia could work, replacing it with “Microsoft Surface” would be a disaster.

              • jiipee says:

                Plenty of arrogance (separate from the Nokia arrogance) present in MS. Im expecting them to re-launch Lumias under a new name.

                • Janne says:

                  Possible. That would be a risky move.

                  • Marc Aurel says:

                    Probably they will keep the Lumia name. Devices launched before the formal transferring of the business will also keep the Nokia brand almost certainly throughout their life cycle, which will probably include many models in this quarter.

                    • Janne says:

                      Devices launched before the formal transferring of the business will also keep the Nokia brand almost certainly throughout their life cycle, which will probably include many models in this quarter.

                      Probable, yes.

          • Janne says:

            One risk facing Nokia was the loss of independence in one way or the other. Whether or not WP as a business is sustainable overall, time will tell of course.

            What is obvious is that breaking in a new ecosystem is hard and takes immense investment. Once you get past that hurdle, then many things can become sustainable and I believe (barring catastrophic changes by Microsoft) WP is in this category.

            Think of the game consoles. It is very hard to successfully bring out a new console platform. It took Microsoft quite a bit of money to enter that market. Not all companies can afford that kind of spenditure. Some can.

            As for Nokia and Android, considering how fast Asha has failed, I think from that angle alone going Android might have been a good move for Nokia. Then again, it wouldn’t have been a good move for those us who hate monopolies and duopolies. One more Android manufacturer, not very exciting. I think the best scenario for Nokia would have been to have pushed for Maemo phones since 2005. Maemo could be the Android of today.

          • Jiipee says:

            The OS itself (meaning WP8) id not crappy. Fast and fluid and app selection is excellent for a business user, whose employer used mostly MS sw (Outlook, Yammer, Dynamics…) If You take out Nokia’s efforts, not much is left. Some of the MS apps do not work as supposed (CRM always forgets the server address and establishes connection from scratch).

            The roadmap was horrible to Nokia: when They were in hurry, WP7 to 8 stalled the development. RT was a disaster to their tablet plans. If MS eventually combines WP and RT (or They Are Silent now since doing it in the background) it would have been the Final nail to the coffin for Nokia.

            • Janne says:

              Fair comment. I can agree with this, even though I see no reason to absolutely believe WP/RT merger will be WP7 kind of event.

              • jiipee says:

                True, not fully alike WP7. What I would expect that WP8 (or whatever the number is by then) is where MS will keep the compatibility and RT installed base will suffer.

                They would finally need to get their act together and support all their platform with one app development environment. Afaik, it takes effort to get an app to WIN, RT and WP. (btw it looks like Qt support will arrive pretty soon, if the Qt Tampere event is to be believed and we might try our luck with Qt app on ios, Android, Sailfish and WP)

            • Shaun says:

              On the other hand, lack of VPN and SIP support is kind of a major omission for a business user. Why they’ve not fixed that after two+ years is unbelievable.

      • Random Random says:

        Well.

        You should remember that in the end Symbian failed even more than WP did.

        • jiipee says:

          I cant see nn mentioning Symbian there. That is history, let it go.

          • Random Random says:

            Nokia mentioned Symbian in the report.

            Talking about Symbian will be relevant for a long time. Probably until next decade.

            When someone says that WP isn’t selling well, it must be compared to the alternative and as far as Nokia is concerned, that alternative is Symbian.

            • Jiipee says:

              Not really. The Alternatives were Meego+Meltemi or Android or Android + WP or Meego + WP or Android + Meego. Or selling the biz already in 2011. Only the people who attended strategy meetings can open up the options and reasoning.

              • Random Random says:

                Well.

                I can educate you on this.

                Symbian was supposed to have a migration path.

                Yes.

                • jiipee says:

                  Until when? I dont think we know the plans from mid-2010.

                • Shaun says:

                  Of course it did. We all know that. Why are you suggesting it’s some secret only you knew? You just look ridiculous.

                  • Random Random says:

                    Well.

                    It seems that jiipee is not really familiar with that information.

                    • Shaun says:

                      Neither are you as you stated the alternative was Symbian. It was not.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Sure it was.

                      Symbian was supposed to be used in the low end while MeeGo was ramped up in the high end and Meltemi was in development.

                    • capedonut says:

                      Of course at the time when Elop was hired, everything was on the table, but in hindsight, I think their only other real option was going full steam ahead on android, possibly with some forked versions for some regions with HERE onboard instead of gmaps.

                    • Janne says:

                      Going Android could have worked.

                      Too bad it would also have solidified the duopoly. That wouldn’t have been good for consumers and technology sector in general.

                    • Janne says:

                      Almost makes one wish Nokia has gone Maemo full steam in 2005… now doesn’t it? :)

          • Shaun says:

            It’s like Beetlejuice…except you’ve not got to even mention Symbian and RR appears.

            • Pathetic says:

              hahahahah lol you have to say Symbian 3 times in front of the mirror and then RR appears hahah +1020 yo make my day dude.

        • zlutor says:

          It is one opinion. But from what aspect it failed more?

          ASP was higher than WP phones, it was profitable – but for sure declining – business, etc…

          Was there any quarter when WP did deliver profit to Nokia? Symbian did it in all quarter in its lifetime…

          And YES, it was destined to die – even me know it – but it died in ‘glory’. :-)

          • Random Random says:

            In the end.

            Yes.

            In the end Symbian failed really bad. It was no longer profitable in 2011 and the expenses were astronomical.

            • jiipee says:

              The symbian expences were not only related to the OS itself, but the whole product portfolio and the size of it.

              • Random Random says:

                Yes.

                Making losses in 2011.

                • kues says:

                  Yes, from Q2/2011 on. btw: At the same time profits on Mobile Phones took their deep dive.
                  And how about the losses made with WP in 2012?

                  • Random Random says:

                    Yes.

                    Symbian was no longer competitive and WP started too late to become profitable on time.

                    It’s that simple.

                    • kues says:

                      Symbian was no longer competitive

                      Yes, because it was declared dead on 11211 it was no longer competitive from Q2/11 on. It’s really that simple, yes.
                      Yet the delusional BOD under Elop’s leadership fantasized about selling 150m Symbian devices after 11211 throughout the transition to selling 25m+ WP a quarter. And they also fantasized mobile phones/featurephones would be a long term relevant and stable business for Nokia with no connection to the smartphone business and WP decision. Yes, Nokia simply made the worst possible strategic decisions early 2011. And they paid for it quick and fast when loosing about one third of their revenue both on smartphones and on mobile phones from Q2/11 on.
                      It’s sadly that simple.

                      and WP started too late to become profitable on time.

                      No, WP7 was already a dead horse in Q1/11 as it failed when WP7 device sales started in Q4/10. Microsoft simply used Nokia to reanimate WP7. But right when WP7 showed some life because of Nokia early 2012, Microsoft killed WP7 in favor of WP8 and ruined Nokia with that move.
                      It’s sadly that simple.

                    • Random Random says:

                      It was never proved that 112 was the reason for the collapse of the unit sales.

                      As far as we know, it just might have happened at the same time.

                      There were lots of other reasons why Symbian’s unit sales would have collapsed.

                      In any case it was not proved that anything Nokia’s management did resulted with the collapse.

                      It’s actually quite amazing that you say it happened because of the 112. Where is the proof of that?

                    • kues says:

                      It was never proved that 112 was the reason for the collapse of the unit sales.
                      [...]
                      It’s actually quite amazing that you say it happened because of the 112. Where is the proof of that?

                      So suddenly you are a skeptic again and are in dire need of proof? Then were is the proof for your claims “Symbian was no longer competitive” and “WP started too late to become profitable on time”?

                    • Random Random says:

                      Proving that is easy.

                      To stay competitive Nokia was supposed to maintain market share and profits. They lost lots of market share in 2010 and the profits were just a fraction of what they were in the past.

                      So.

                      What is the actual proof that 112 was the reason for the collapse?

                    • kues says:

                      Proving that is easy.
                      To stay competitive Nokia was supposed to maintain market share and profits. They lost lots of market share in 2010 and the profits were just a fraction of what they were in the past.

                      That’s no proof for “Symbian was no longer competitive”. You just talk about changed marketshare and profits (of Nokia on smart devices i suppose) which are both different subjects. And those changes could have been caused by a lot of reasons. So where is the proof?

                      btw: After all i can estimate from 2009 financial reports, profits on smart devices have been higher 2010 than 2009 -or at least at a similar level.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      That proofs how Symbian was no longer doing as well as the competition was. Apple had much bigger revenues and revenues matter. Or are you saying Symbian was doing better than iOS? Or that it was competitive.

                      However.

                      What’s your proof of 112 being the reason for Symbian’s collapse? It happened about at the same time but that’s not yet proof.

                    • ZiPA says:

                      “Yes, because it was declared dead on 11211 it was no longer competitive from Q2/11 on. It’s really that simple, yes.”

                      OMG. This has got to stop. Seriously.

                      If Symbian was doing all hunky-dory and had a future so bright that it had to wear shades even at night, why – seriously, why? – would the BoD over at Nokia had thought that the at-the-time-current senior management had to go and that the company had to make an über-drastical change of strategy?

                      Just for the heck of it?

                      Seriously, guys. You may like Symbian, but please, don’t throw away your common sense for that.

                    • Janne says:

                      Let us not forget, Symbian lost practically all its industry partners in Q3/2010 *before* Elop started at Nokia.

                      That is how competitive Symbian was. All other phone manufacturers announced it dead in the summer of 2010.

                      Nokia knew Symbian was dead. Hence they kicked out OPK and brought in a new CEO. Had Symbian not failed, no Elop would have ever come.

            • Shaun says:

              I would say it’s more that Nokia failed than Symbian particularly.

              In 2011 Nokia still had a large software development cost, factories in Europe, lots of custom development.

              Software development required more agility and less bureaucracy, China was already loads cheaper than Europe and hardware was commoditised. They were ripe for disruption from companies that were less “European” than them.

              It wasn’t just Symbian that was the problem. They had the solution, technically, already in house with Linux and Qt. It was the whole surrounding edifice that was out of step.

              • Janne says:

                Yes, Nokia has organizational problems. Those organizational problems had also made their “fork” of Symbian a dire mess.

  5. Random Random says:

    Well.

    The patents didn’t generate Nokia too much revenue or profits.

    Now it’s once again more and more apparent that Nokia failed with Apple when they were trying to get Apple paying them something like 1% of the revenues Apple was getting from iOS products.

    Apple was the obvious winner on this one. Nokia was expected to get something like 4 euros / device but they ended up getting only about 10% of that.

    Yes.

    Nokia’s patent incomes have actually declined in 2013.

    • RVM says:

      I like how u use to add “yes” to self-confirm your claims. Dude, u really are retarded.

      • Random Random says:

        Well.

        You seem to rely on personal attacks when you fail to have any reasonable arguments.

        Then again, this has been your way in the past so it doesn’t surprise me.

        • RVM says:

          Q4 earnings results are too good arguments, there’s no need to add any other.

          • Random Random says:

            Well.

            If you bothered to check, you would have noticed how the patent incomes actually declined.

            But hey, since are known to be ignorant, you didn’t even bother commenting about the actual topic.

            Yes.

            • RVM says:

              “But how did it do in the last quarter? Not particularly well, it seems, but it’s hard to judge how badly, as the company has decided not to break out sales of its Lumia and Asha handsets, so we’re left looking for evidence elsewhere. What we do know is that the company has conceded that both smart and dumb-phone sales have fallen. Naturally, Nokia is blaming the drop on the usual suspects, like the competitive market and cheaper devices from rival manufacturers.”

              Yes.

              http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/23/nokia-q4-2013/

              • Random Random says:

                Well.

                I’ll educate you about that.

                That copy paste from Engadget talks about unit sales.

                I was talking about patent incomes.

                Since you probably knew that, you must be ignorant on some other way to miss the point.

                Yes.

                • RVM says:

                  U’re the only one talking here about patents. Apparently trying to cover the fact that Lumias are not doing well.

                  Anyway, I have no time to read that PDF report, maybe u can copy-paste here any mention of dropping patent incomes to support your claims?

                  oh and I almost forgot…

                  Yes.

                  • Random Random says:

                    Well.

                    You failed to understand what I said.

                    “Nokia’s patent incomes have actually declined in 2013.”

                    I wouldn’t have expected you to be that ignorant.

                    Then again.

                    Maybe you need more time to understand this.

                    • RVM says:

                      Well.

                      You failed to understand what I said.

                      I’m asking you to copy-paste source of your claims.

                      I wouldn’t have expected you to be that ignorant.

                      Then again.

                      Maybe you need more time to understand this.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      You sure are ignorant if you didn’t know that.

                      And if you did, you are not too smart asking for that.

                    • RVM says:

                      I’m just not sitting 24/7 every day of the year on mynokiablog like you do.

                      Are you able to copy-paste any new information to support your claims, or are u just sucked it out of your thumb?

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      Just read the news or stay ignorant about that.

                    • RVM says:

                      There’s no word about patents in news.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Yes.

                      I understand you are not that good with finding news.

                      Keep trying.

                    • RVM says:

                      I’m just too busy to waste my time search for news. Since you are obviously unable to copy-paste this information, i’m giving up on trying to ask for it.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Yes.

                      You can remain ignorant about that.

                    • RVM says:

                      No. I’ll rather remain confident that u sucked it from thumb, to cover falling sales of Lumias (and WP) in Q4 2013.

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      You can remain confident that you are ignorant on this one.

    • Shaun says:

      I don’t see how you can come to that conclusion. Nokia’s Patent income is part of Advanced Technologies. and YoY income was down on 2012 but it depends on both steady patent licencing and winning patent disputes which might introduce some quite spikey peaks into the division’s performance. The Nokia v Apple win in 2011 introduced a quite large one off payment, continued licence payments and some cross licencing of patents (eg. Nokia used the Apple ’318 patent in the N9 and I would presume Asha).

      They were still very profitable in 2013 and announced continued licencing with Samsung in the Q4 report so it’s not exactly the doom and gloom you’re painting here.

      • Random Random says:

        “The Nokia v Apple win in 2011″

        What win?

        People expected Nokia to receive 1% of the iPhone sales as patent fees but that never happened.

        What kind of continues license payments were there? In any case it wouldn’t have been possible to get too much from Apple. Nokia’s patent revenues were unveiled in the latest report.

        It’s actually quite probable that Apple made one time payment for Nokia. If there were additional payments, those were really small ones.

        2011 was a victory for Apple.

        And.

        Why shouldn’t I say something like that? The patent incomes were down. It’s quite obvious from the report.

        • xNokian says:

          Stop speculating already. You don’t know the terms and these statements are BS. Go better argue that D&S sale to Microsoft didn’t have negative effect on Lumia sales.

          • Random Random says:

            Well.

            You are apparently annoyed.

            The fact is that Nokia had max 121 millions of net patent incomes from Q4 2013.

            That makes it impossible for them to have any serious money from Apple.

  6. jiipee says:

    Im getting slightly worried over the whole Finnish mobile biz ecosystem atm

    • Janne says:

      In the mediocre progress we trust.

      • jiipee says:

        Not too much else left ;)

        • Janne says:

          Well, we have the dinghy. :)

          They have no progress.

          • twig says:

            In the U.S. we have pay as you go auto insurance. Not many know about it. The insurance uses tech to know your driving habits and speed in order for you to get a discounted insurance policy. Using Here, Nokia could and should go into the insurance business. They move much too slow to compete in the selling of tech goods industry. This company needs a CEO, a Chairman who believes in profit and a board refresh. They said they wanted something boring, insurance. Sell what people must have and you have a business.

      • xNokian says:

        Smart devices volumes down in a growing market is not called mediocre progress

        • Random Random says:

          Well.

          Apparently the YoY growth was close to 100%. That’s still very good and better than the market growth.

          The problem is that people don’t understand how long it takes to build enough unit sales.

        • Janne says:

          xNokian:

          It was a joke.

          But on the serious side, I’ll just quote a past post:

          0.6 million drop in the circumstances (Nokia Lumia brand basically osbourned in September and real lack of availability of new products, 525/1320/1520/2520 only very limited availability in some countries) wasn’t good, but I don’t think it is a disaster for mediocre progress alone.

          Nokia’s phone business loosing its independence and the tumult that results, overall, can be detrimental to the mediocre progress overall of course. My mediocre progress was always contingent on Nokia being able to continue the progress independently, you can check my past estimates if you wish. I considered acquisition a risk for years as the business value languished.

          The time from the D&S sale announcement to the point when it is fully running and solidified under Microsoft is a time of significant risk. Does the operator support waver under such times? Do developers feel risk and withhold support? Does Microsoft do something drastic to undermine the progress, like drop the Lumia brand? Does Microsoft continue the business in a different way as Nokia did, and is that for better or for worse?

          Only time will tell.

          I still consider WP and the products that currently are known as Nokia Lumia to be headed for mediocre progress, a third place on the market – a sustainable third place. However, since there was an acquisition, it can and does of course add risks to the process.

          I bet you Q4/2013 Lumia progress would have been better had Nokia decided to sell NSN instead and not sell D&S.

  7. Pdexter says:

    Good buy Device and Services. You wont be missed.

  8. Shridhar says:

    Nokia confirms that it sold 8.2 million Lumias in 4Q.— WSJ Nordics (@WSJNordics) January 23 2014 http://t.co/31MK3Wakb4

    • Janne says:

      OK, so a data point after all. Thanks.

    • koopa says:

      So Lumia line made loss with relatively high volume (for Lumia). In that specific report it just says D&S but I was reading somewhere that Lumia made also loss.

      The funny thing is that yet MS made good profit out of these licences sold to Nokia. That is also the one of the reasons why any other vendor does not sell any significant amount of WP devices. Really sick that now MS can suck out nokia’s money with no obligations. Perfect situation for MS.

      As somebody already said only few people wants WP. Now there is also MS hardware. They have lost the sympathy that was coming through nokia. MS is just one ugly big corporate ameba without conscience. Nobody can relate to that (or very few individuals).

      • dss says:

        Yes, I was expecting them to milk the Nokia name for a little longer, but I guess the board knew that I pushed them with the android thing so that they had to choice but to buy without having the right to use the Nokia brand for smartphones.

        It will be extremely difficult to sell Lumia without Nokia.

        • Janne says:

          Yes, selling a Microsoft branded smartphone certainly poses risks to the mediocre progress. Not just because of lack of Nokia name, but lack of continuity. Microsoft is a nobody to the smartphone buyer.

          They need to use that Lumia brand and hide the Microsoft pretty much from the face of the product, just like Xbox is Xbox, not Microsoft Xbox.

          Hopefully they are not too stupid when they make this call. They could be, which is worrisome for mediocre progress of course. :)

  9. Roman says:

    The real news here is not that Nokia lost money (who cares now that it soon doesn’t belong to Nokia anymore), but WP sales seems to have had picked already.

  10. EmmanuelM says:

    Down in Q4 that is a big sales quarter for the SmartPhone industry !!

    It looks like Microsoft acquisition of Nokia Device unit even lowered the sale numbers !!

    I will be interesting to see how MS is going to manage this disaster in the coming monthes …

  11. manu says:

    So it makes sense that Nokia get rid of d&s business windowsphone is going nowhere for Nokia but sale of around 8 million for a software company like Microsoft with no brand value in phone market will be good

  12. Noki says:

    and that’s it during the entire WP period Nokia never came remotely close to make a profit out of the LUMIAS not even close.

    • Random Random says:

      Well.

      Nokia started too late with WP.

      On the other hand Nokia apparently only did losses with MeeGo.

      • Noki says:

        May I yet again ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

        • Random Random says:

          I will continue to reply any time I feel like it. I will not make exceptions just because you don’t want me to reply your messages.

          The actual problem is that Nokia started too late with WP.

          Nokia used Symbian to ruin the company.

          They even didn’t have a fully working Qt version for Symbian when it was ended.

          That’s also the reason why there was no migration path to MeeGo and why it would have been a dead end just like BB had.

          • Noki says:

            May I yet again ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

            • Random Random says:

              Why are you spamming with a copy paste request?

              You should know that I will not do what you are asking for.

              Yes.

              I understand that you hate Microsoft for personal reasons and that’s why you want to badmouth them even for no reason.

              Get over it.

              Microsoft is a successful company and Nokia just didn’t have the talent.

              • Noki says:

                May I yet again ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

                • Random Random says:

                  I understand that you are slow to get it.

                  I will continue to reply.

                  You however are spamming.

                  • Noki says:

                    I will make this last comment to you in a effort to let you understand that this is merely me trying to avoid the usual escalation of repeated arguments and lies conversation with you usually
                    sparks, the reply’s you executed are very good examples of trying to do just that, so let me ask you one last time.

                    So in the name of politeness…..

                    May I yet again ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      Please don’t reply to me if you don’t want to talk with me.

                      That’s how it’s done.

                      I simply won’t be limiting my comments because of someone asking me to be silent.

                      You however have all the freedom of not replying.

                      Besides, what I say can be verified. You could easily check the latest Symbian versions from 112 and see how incomplete they were.

                      However this is not something you have done or at least admitted to have done.

                    • Noki says:

                      May I yet again ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

                    • Random Random says:

                      Why are you continuing to reply if you don’t want to talk?

                      Don’t you know that you could just not reply?

                      Is that something you didn’t know?

                      Yes?

                    • Noki says:

                      May I ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      You sure like spamming.

                      Are you serious about that?

                      You also have another option of simply not replying. Ever considered that?

                      Now I have educated you.

                      Yes?

                    • Noki says:

                      May politely I ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

                    • Random Random says:

                      Are you going to spam forever?

                      Just because you love MeeGo?

                      Yes?

                    • Noki says:

                      Please may I ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      You sure like to spam.

                      You must understand that I’m not going to stop.

                      So.

                      Why are you doing that?

                      Yes?

                    • Noki says:

                      May I ask off you to not reply to my comments. Thank you

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      People must love talking with you.

                      You keep repeating how you don’t want to hear them talk.

                      Yes?

                    • Noki says:

                      All I ask off you to not reply to my comments. Thank you

                    • Random Random says:

                      You are a spammer.

                      Yes?

                    • noki says:

                      Some time ago it became clear that asking you to not reply to me was the best thing I could do… sooo.
                      May I ask you to not reply to a comment from me?

                      Thank you.

                    • Random Random says:

                      So that’s the reason why you want to spam?

                      Don’t you know that you don’t have to answer me? Of course you can but it’s not required from you.

                      Spamming is not something people like to see.

                    • Noki says:

                      If i may I ask off you to not reply to my comments. Thank you

                    • Random Random says:

                      Well.

                      You are still spamming. That’s obvious. I wonder why.

          • URNumber6 says:

            NOKIA’s sales volume of smart devices grew 48% in 2010, revenue from D&S by 17%. Check their accounts.

            Of course Symbian failed in 2011, it had been publicly announced EOL. What carrier or retailer would want to waste time and money promoting products already announced obsolete by their own CEO?

            WP doesn’t sell, not even when it gets the same Samsung hardware that sells in huge volumes when it has Android on it. Open your eyes.

            Elop also destroyed Nokia’s featurephone division by killing Meltemi and leaving their featurephones stranded in the distant past. We are now seeing the consequences of that decision too.

            • Random Random says:

              Now you are jumping into conclusions.

              You seem to suggest that the 112 memo or the events surrounding it were the reason for Symbian’s collapse in 2011.

              Where is the proof of that?

              It’s just as likely that Nokia made the 112 announcement just because they saw how Symbian sales were going to collapse.

              There really is no proof about 112 resulting the collapse. You just say it was the reason, but where is the actual proof that it just didn’t happen at the same time?

            • Janne says:

              URNumber6:

              You forget that Symbian lost practically all its industrial partners in the summer of 2010, before Elop started at Nokia.

              That’s how healthy Symbian was. Phone manufacturers moved from Symbian to Android in droves – in 2010. Symbian Foundation ceased to exist almost overnight.

              You can’t really blame February 11th (no matter how incompetently that was executed – and it was) for that.

        • ZiPA says:

          “May I yet again ask you to not reply to my comments? Thank you!”

          What makes you think that you could make such a request? That is pretty much the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard on the internet, and that’s saying a lot.

          Of course you may not ask that. You may ask that the moderators remove all comments by RR that are replies to your comments, but I can’t really see that happening either.

          R U seriozz?

          Y U Mad???1?

          • Janne says:

            Noki is probably just willing himself to ignore RR – and it would be easier if RR ignored him.

            It is very human.

            I remember many times saying out loud “I should ignore this” to will myself. :) Usually we humans fail, of course.

            Willing through online posts to stop posting online posts hardly works. It is placebo.

            What really helps, if one wants to stop some behavior, is just stopping it as you say. It is harder at first than “willing oneself”, but in the end far more effective.

    • dss says:

      Why would you even expect them to make any profits from WP ? It was pretty obvious that it won’t happen :)

      • Noki says:

        Well Before the 5xx I thought it could be possible somewhere around the 8-10 Million line, the moment the 5XX’s came out was the moment In my mind NOKIA was doomed and the only hope was to sell the unit to Microsoft I said that much a very long time ago.
        Guess I was right!

        • xerxes2 says:

          Nokia was doomed the moment they hired Mr Flop. Shame on you Ollila for getting into shady deals like that and bring in a friggin trojan. And sales of course tanked like there’s no tomorrow. Puny eight million WP sold, around a million for each device. I’m speechless.

          • Random Random says:

            That was almost 100% YoY growth.

            The growth rate is quite close to what iPhone had in the Christmas quarter after the first few years.

            • xerxes2 says:

              Puny eight million sold worldwide is not something you can live on for a company the size of Nokia. Around a million sold for each device is beyond bad. Hopefully MS buys the lot and Nokia invest the money in Jolla instead. :)

              • Random Random says:

                Of course it’s not.

                Nokia started too late because of the Symbian religion.

                • xerxes2 says:

                  The trojan killed Nokia with his friggin WP religion and that is a fact. The numbers don’t lie, puny eigth million sold three years and it’s game over for Nokia, sadly.

                  • Random Random says:

                    Well.

                    That’s actually not a fact.

                    You are mistaken.

                    Nokia just started too late.

                    Yes?

                    • xerxes2 says:

                      What part of “puny eight million three years later” did you not get?

                    • Random Random says:

                      WP is doing approximately as well as iPhone was when it was launched.

                      You may be surprised to found out that iPhone didn’t have much more sales after the same amount of time.

                    • kues says:

                      WP is doing approximately as well as iPhone was when it was launched.
                      You may be surprised to found out that iPhone didn’t have much more sales after the same amount of time.

                      But worldwide smartphone sales Q4/13 are about 4 times higher than smartphone sales have been Q4/10 and about 16 times higher than Q4/2007.
                      And WP7 had 9 devices from 4 different manufacturers available when sales launched Q4/10.
                      How about some more apples and oranges?

                    • Random Random says:

                      Yes.

                      And Symbian was losing market share in 2010. Does that mean Symbian was collapsing because it was losing market share?

                      Or are you saying market share didn’t matter for Symbian but it matters for WP? Double standards on that?

            • URNumber6 says:

              Percentages can seem very big when absolute numbers are very small.

              • Random Random says:

                Absolute numbers are always very small for new platforms.

                You can’t name any new smartphone platform starting from absolute big unit sales.

                Or can you?

                No you can’t.

  13. xerxes2 says:

    Puny eight million sold WP in a quarter is REALLY bad. Where is the smug looking Mr Flop now ehh? It would be very funny if MS dumped WP alltogether now. :) Nokia better hurry to close the deal before it’s too late. Better go back to Symbian and Meego (Sailfish) than continue with crap like S40 and WP that’s virtually unsellable. Just looka at the MS Surface sales numbers! Heck, I’d wager in a few months Jolla will sell more phones than MS. :) Symbian increased sales to a whopping 28 million in its last quarter, compare that to the ultra puny WP sales.

    • Random Random says:

      Well.

      You forget that Symbian also lost lots of sales in 2011 and there is no proof that it happened because of the actions taken by Nokia’s board.

      Symbian simply failed in 2011.

      • xerxes2 says:

        Symbian was officially and in public killed in feb/2011. Before that sales were increasing on the Qt powered Symbian fleet which sold five million in its only quarter. Demand for Symbian^3 powered phones was HIGHER than Nokia could produce! But Ollila had brought in a trojan that killed it and Meego and now we have the result, puny eight million WP sold three years later. It’s scary really, hopefully Jolla will be the new Nokia.

        • Random Random says:

          There is no proof that 112 resulted the loss of the unit sales.

          As far as we know, nothing proves that anything Nokia did resulted with the collapse.

          Of course you can try fabricating some evidence, but in reality you have no proof.

          • xerxes2 says:

            I have proved it to you many times before but you live in some kind of Nokia hate religion so you don’t seem to get simple numbers. Here we go again:
            http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/12525_Nokia_Q4_2010_results-profits_.php

            “Nokia’s device and service division’s profits were €1090 million, up 10% from Q3.”

            “Nokia sold more than 5 million Symbian^3 devices. Total converged devices sales (mainly Symbian-powered smartphones) were up, at 28.3 million, compared with 20.8 million units in Q3 2009 (up 36% YoY) and compared with 26.5 million units in Q3 2010 (up 7%, QoQ).”

            And here is a funny one from Mr Flop:

            Stephen Elop said:
            “In Q4 we delivered solid performance across all three of our businesses, and generated outstanding cash flow. Additionally, growth trends in the mobile devices market continue to be encouraging. Yet, Nokia faces some significant challenges in our competitiveness and our execution. In short, the industry changed, and now it’s time for Nokia to change faster.”

            “Nokia’s Q4 results are the first to include Symbian^3 phones. One notable impact is the increase in the average selling price: converged devices’ average selling price rose to €156, compared to €136 in Q3.”

            “Smartphone shipments in the quarter were 28.3 million (up from 26.5 million in Q3 2010 and 20.8 million in Q3 2009). The year-on-year increase in smartphone sales was 36% and the quarter on quarter increase was 7%.”

            You want more?

            • Random Random says:

              That’s not proof.

              That’s just sales.

            • BellGo says:

              Don’t bother, he literally won’t acknowledge anything you say to him.

              All replies by Random Random will be ignored.

              • Random Random says:

                The problem with his numbers are that they illustrate sales but give absolutely no explanation for the collapse of the unit sales in 2011.

                Well.

                People who are not knowledgeable enough have no choice but to forget replying.

                You are probably not smart enough.

                Yes?

        • Janne says:

          Symbian lost almost all other phone manufacturers in the summer of 2010. Symbian Foundation basically died before Elop even started at Nokia.

          Let’s not pretend Symbian was healthy in 2010. Symbian^3 was very late, its quality was a joke at the time… but sure, that Nokia name still sold some – and many people I know cussing they’d never buy another Nokia phone again after N97 and some Symbian^3 device that was supposed to make it all better…

          Symbian had lost its partners and the high-end by 2010. What was left was a run towards the ground and peddling cheap models before Android reached those levels too. And it reached them very fast.

          BlackBerry learned the same with BB7. They too were still growing in 2010 with the market, but when Android got all the pricepoints in 2011, BB7 crashed boom banged without any Feb11 of their own.

          Of course Feb11 announcement was bad form from Nokia and Elop and clearly a mistake. But let’s not overestimate its influence either.

  14. xerxes2 says:

    I still can’t believe the WP numbers. I mean, seriously, PUNY eight million sold worldwide in a friggin quarter! No wonder Nokia didn’t want to comment on those numbers.

  15. Pathetic says:

    Why this surprises everyone ?
    is more than obvious , as in 2011, when Nokia announced the magnificent WP strategy, Nokia collapse, now that Nokia is out of WP, again sales collapse, WP peaked last quarter , from here on it’s downhill , I hate being right , I said from day 1 , Nokia is dead thanks to WP, be careful everyone who bought or intend to buy a WP8 will suffer the same fate as WP7.5

    • Noki says:

      Think Microsoft will keep on funding this endeavour, they will keep pupping money in to AstroTurf, and stop releasing numbers about unit sales.

      WP8 and winRT will merge soon incompatible or compatible no on really cares its not like they have vast numbers of users right now, and they can pump enough money into AstroTurf to make any bad perception appear non existent.

      • Random Random says:

        Well.

        If succeeding in business needs astroturfing, then it’s better to astroturf than collapse like Nokia. Nokia wasn’t able to survive because the products they had just were not good enough.

        Maybe Nokia would be making phones if they focused more on marketing. Marketing with astroturfing.

        It’s just one way of marketing but some people fail to understand that.

      • Pathetic says:

        no matter what microsoft do without Nokia they are doomed Microsoft have 10 years trying and trying, burning killing partners and money and just 8% marketshare, Microsoft is doomed.
        imagine , Microsoft took the best phone manufacturer in history with a lot of fans and led them to bankruptcy , do you think that alone will be able to get ahead?

        • Random Random says:

          There wasn’t a bankruptcy for Nokia.

          Nokia had obsoleted phones and they just failed to sell those.

          I know you like to accuse Microsoft and 112 memo for that but in reality there is no proof that it was the reason for Nokia’s failure to sell phones.

          Where is the proof?

    • xerxes2 says:

      All true, sadly. Hopefully now Nokia can sell the worthless phone division to MS and then invest in Jolla instead. Now that would be a fun twist to this bizarre story. :) Stick it Mr Flop! Thing is, I kinda liked Canada before all of this Elop/WP madness started but he makes the whole country look bad.

  16. spacemodel says:

    The most lucratieve quarter of the year and Nokia sold less phones than the quarter before; that’s what I call real mediocre progress…

    Nokia has sold about 44m Lumias since launch, Apple sold slightly more iPhones last quarter and more Androids are sold every 3 weeks.
    That’s the state of WP at the beginning of 2014 and looking at the numbers Nokia produced today, with already declining sales, it’s obvious WP is nothing more than a niche OS, disliked by the fast majority of the mobile world and the only reason it still excists is because Microsoft has enough money, otherwise it would already be gone for good.

    For a lot of us this is no surprise, when Elop choose his masters voice we already predict this outcome, the mobile world has already made their choice, Android and iOS are more than good enough and there is not a single reason why they should choose an obsolete OS like WP.

    • dss says:

      The only reason it exists is because Microsoft made one of their best business moves ever by corning Nokia into making Windows Phone their only smartphone OS.

      They know that no other brand had the power to kick start WP, so they took advantage of the unfortunate situation Nokia put themselves into by destroying Symbian and Meego with awful management, strategy, and tactics.

      So far it has been working great for Microsoft, without Nokia’s help they will be selling zero phones, but thanks to Nokia.. they are selling millions.

      The problem is that I was expecting them to continue using Nokia for at least a few more years until they could get WP into a more stable state, but that isn’t happening so now I am not sure if it will work out.

      Despite that, they really gave the platform it’s best shot. No other OEM could’ve done the same for WP.. not even close. Not to mention that if you don’t have Nokia on your team, they are playing against you and that diminishes your chances of success even further. Microsoft knew that very well from previous experiences with the Pegasus (win mobile) vs. Symbian story.. They didn’t stand a chance.

      That brings me to the inevitable question ..

      “oh, but if it wasn’t for Nokia, Symbian would’ve been dead by now”

      I disagree. I think the fact that Nokia pushed Ericsson and Motorola away from Symbian in a pretty hostile manner was the ultimate demise of Symbian. If they (Symbian ltd) would’ve stayed independent from Nokia, and streamlined the UX to be similar for all 3 OEMs.. completely different story.

      Nokia could’ve added their own apps, just like how they do now with WP, but they wouldn’t be able to change the whole thing using S60 or whatever else they thought was a good idea to put on top of Symbian.

      So I think that Symbian would’ve been just fine without Nokia owning it. In fact, it would’ve been much, much better.

      Nokia slowly killed Symbian, they just didn’t realize that it was also their main money maker and it needed much better care, so by killing/neglecting it .. they killed themselves.

      • Noki says:

        mostly agree as usual :)

      • BellGo says:

        Good reasoning here, imagine WP with out Nokia, it would be more dead than Blackberry.

        • dss says:

          Without Nokia, WP would be fairy dust by now..

          • Noki says:

            yes it would be something else the 23 version of Microsoft attempts in this space. Nokia just created one that sicked for a bit longer… how long? your guess is as good as mine, Microsoft is pretty good at at giving up and starting from scratch and duping a few billions to “fix” it wile acquiring one or 2 companies in the process…

            • dss says:

              Windows Phone is here to stay.. They will merge it with Windows RT.. hopefully by then Snap 805/4gb RAM/3500 mah batteries will be standard and the platform can really shine.

              Don’t forget that Windows NT is a very strong platform, all it needs is enough resources to flex..

              yes, its not ideal for phone calls, the bt stack sucks a bit,.. and other “minor” things like that, but overall.. its really good.

              • Noki says:

                well the NT kernel is not that great and development is stagnant, we know that from public blogs from people inside it… Its not win CE yes, but its not great

              • Noki says:

                Also I’m not sure how Lumia sales will do wen there I no NOKIA brand behind it. I know the sales team from nokia will migrate and the distribution channels as well but there is also the factor of the people that bought “a nokia” first and foremost, maybe Microsoft will start dumping real money in the sales incentives to boost sales, DUNNO there are alot of ???

                Microsoft will be playing a tricky game from now on in one end they don’t want to piss off their already pissed off OEM’s by being an unbeatable contender via sales stimulus to sales people.
                On the other end they have to play that game if they want WP to mean anything else than a margin error in the grand view of things.

      • kues says:

        Nokia slowly killed Symbian, they just didn’t realize that it was also their main money maker and it needed much better care, so by killing/neglecting it .. they killed themselves.

        Mobile phones not Symbian devices have been the main money maker for Nokia. Almost every quarter since 2006 profits on mobile phones have been at least two times higher than on smart devices.
        Nokia did not loose 20m smartphone buyers Q4/10 to Q4/13 only, but on top of that 35-40m former featurephone buyers (at about 65€ ASP, now probably low end smartphone buyers from other manufacturers).

      • spacemodel says:

        Sorry, dss, but there has not been any kickstart at all and even with Nokia on board it has not been working great for Microsoft.

        At this moment WP have about 3% marketshare which is not much more WM had in the past, it doesn’t matter if Microsoft dumps the Lumia name because WP(M) was, is and will be a niche and almost non existing OS; the only reason Microsoft will continue with this failure is because they have the money to do so.

        • Random Random says:

          Why market share suddenly matters when it didn’t matter in 2010 when Symbian was losing it?

        • dss says:

          Oh c’mon man.. this is an extremely competitive market and Microsoft went from selling a few hundred thousand devices to 8 million a quarter! What do you call that if not a “kick start” ..

          Show me another company that can do the same against Google and Apple today and I will agree with you, but I know that such a company doesn’t exist.

          Microsoft are a very successful business and they are anything but a one trick pony, which allows them to pretty much fukc up as many times as they desire with a certain project and still be ok.

          There are very few companies in the tech world that can do what they do. The xbox project is a perfect example.. keep throwing money behind it until it works, and look at them now..

          Of course sometimes they realize that it won’t go anywhere and simply stop investing, but in this case.. the case of Windows Phone.. they are here to stay, and it will probably work.

          My point is, without Nokia’s brand name, distribution networks, design, etc. This would be impossible.. even for them.

  17. BellGo says:

    That incredible Nokia saving Windows Phone success, huh?

    I’m interested to see how MS will succeed with WP, seeing that Nokia certainly did not succeed, and not they don’t have the strong brand name behind them.

    All replies by Random Random will be ignored.

    • BellGo says:

      now they don’t have*

      All replies by Random Random will be ignored.

    • Random Random says:

      You sure are afraid of my comments if you have to say something like that.

      Yes.

      But hey.

      You just can’t understand why your favorite manufacturer failed. The rest of us knew that Nokia was a failure but you didn’t.

      That must be hard for you if you figure it out one day.

    • Capedonut says:

      The future might not be as grim as one would think. Surface seems to have picked up some speed and also bing

      • ZiPA says:

        Surface is good, but it’s running RT, not WP.

        Funny, since RT was supposed to be the red-headed stepchild.

      • dss says:

        Of course it will pick up speed. Its a good product, and it has all the marketing in the world behind it.. keep at it for long enough and the consumer market will respond. Proven strategy.

        • capedonut says:

          Yep, I just wanted to point out that if they could fire up the popularity of a device running RT, which has been even more criticised than wp, I dont think wp is in immediate danger.

          • dss says:

            Good point.

          • Janne says:

            Ignorance and far too quickly calling something dead has been the malaise of Windows 8, Windows RT and WP in the media. In the end, they are good products like dss says and they bring new things to the market – and are backed by an industry giant. Obviously they will succeed. Perhaps not all of them at industry first levels, but then they don’t have to… they can still contribute to a meaningful whole.

  18. Avatar Korra says:

    woooosh

  19. ZiPA says:

    What actually worries me with regards to these news is not that Lumia sales were poor, or that Nokia still wasn’t the bestest, or that I (theoretically, since I’m not a trader but a keeper) lost a shitload of money on the stock market tanking.

    No, what worries me is the proposal laid forth that there shall be no third ecosystem. That the general public is happy with iOS and Android. That is just lame, dudes. Just lame.

    • Shane says:

      There’ll be a 3rd, probably even more longer-term…
      It’s just a matter of time, there’s no way iOS/Android will be the only options forever.

  20. viperkid says:

    FACT: microsoft killed nokia’s devices and services division

    replies from Random Random are INVISIBLE to me HAHAHA

    • Random Random says:

      Well.

      Actually it was Apple and Google who almost killed D&S.

      They had superior products.

      Yes?

    • Janne says:

      All the mentions Random Random gets, I must assume he has been quite successful in penetrating people’s minds. It is scary how many refer to him. It is like they worship RR on some sick level.

      Why would anyone want to constantly point out a commenter here in such a manner?

      In Finland we have a saying, rakkaudesta se hevonenkin potkii.

  21. CyberAngel says:

    The Verge
    That’s 8.2 million Lumia sales during the latest quarter, an 86 percent increase from the same period last year, but a drop from the 8.8 million record in the previous quarter.
    - – -
    CyberNote:
    2013 each quarter has been better than the same quarter in 2012
    disappointment = not three digits in growth anymore :-(
    “just” 86%

    • Noki says:

      C’mon that YoY numbers are a pathetic metric, sell 1 today and 10 next yea and you have 1000% increase, fact remains they are pathetic today and pathetic next year, what you guys should be looking at would be revenue, its should be getting closer to profitability over the quarters, but no it never did….

      *replies from Random Random are ignored…

      • Random Random says:

        Well.

        The problem is that Nokia started too late.

        Even Apple didn’t have 500% YoY growth and also they started with very low unit sales.

        Do you know many manufacturers who were able to start with huge volumes? You say that Nokia should have been able to do that in 2011 but offer absolutely no proof that they could have done better with something like MeeGo.

        Nokia simply started too late.

      • CyberAngel says:

        Only pathetic people don’t use YoY metrics.
        I also want to correct a slight error in numbers:
        1 million 1
        The market share wins (over Apple) in 14 countries tells that the Windows Phone 8 has been gaining throughout the year 2013.
        Ballmer said that they (MSFT) expect profitability in 2015.
        Now it’s just getting more sales faster than anyone else in the whole planet.
        You may try to hide and deny facts but the Truth always prevails.

        *replies from Noki are ignored by most readers…

        • Random Random says:

          Yes.

          These people think that new platform should gain sales amazingly fast. They actually expect that MeeGo would have gained sales at least 50% every quarter. That would be 500% YoY.

          They are living in a dream world.

          Just see what Nokia thought how MeeGo would have been doing in his world.

          noki says:
          May 7, 2013 at 11:37 am

          @viipottaja yes they did, its its not rocket science to get it just look at the price of the only 2 devices out :) and since they are maxing out their production capability they have no need to drop prices. :)

          it will go down once they introduce their R10 and another mid range phone, atention the z10 is not the uper high end one an new one will still show up this year with a comparable price to the Q10 upper high end.

          @Mikä interesting so you ask me what I would consider success, and then go on referencing wp?

          any way heee well if you awnat broke down in numbers here we go, this is what I would consider successfully Q per Q

          Q4-1-2M
          Q1-3-4M 2 Meego devices
          Q2-6-10M 3 Meggo devices frist cheaper version of one uper midrange think 6xx series
          Q3-10-12 launch of a n9 replacement with new meego 2.0
          Q4-15-20M xmas season
          Q1-10-15M new Meegos released to fill the gaps based on the fully compatible and upgradable meego 2.0

          this is based on transitioning the installed based nokia had into meego
          exactly what BBRYM is doing

          And this would be something I would call success #note its nothing spectacular and would require symbian to fade out at a much slower pace than it did.

          And really its exactly what BBRYM is doing #BBRYM is a much smaller company than Nokia was they only need half of those numbers to be successful..

        • Noki says:

          YoY metrics, is the only metric were WP does not look like what it is, would like to see you use the profitability metric heck just show me one company selling devices that had profits on the WP line for one single quarter? 1, just one….

          like all numbers as soon as they become large enough truth will surface.. the YOY numbers will start to plunge since the thing seems to have peeked way earlier than I expected, so this will be last few quarters were you get to use the YOY numbers, next you guys will have to come up with some other excuse… for WP pathetic growth… unless Microsoft starts to actually pay people to use them, since the ridiculous price of the L5XX does not seem to work any more…

          • Random Random says:

            Well.

            How are you going to tell how profitable the actual WP business is or was? Nokia’s numbers for D&S included lots of efforts not related to WP.

            Yes.

            You don’t like YoY metrics because it’s the best way of determining how well some business is succeeding and it’s quite obvious that WP has been gaining sales.

  22. BobHyde says:

    And that’s why I am rooting for Elop to be the next head of Microsoft . . .

  23. I do not even know how I ended up here, but I thought this post was great.
    I don’t know who you are but definitely you are going
    to a famous blogger if you aren’t already ;) Cheers!

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