N9 confirmed for September Launch in Australia – Exclusive to Vodafone

| August 6, 2011 | 107 Replies

 

Spoke to my friend at Vodafone today, regarding the conference he went to during the week.

He had a hands-on with the device and is quite impressed. He said he wants one, despite at first being skeptical when I told him I thought it was better then the iPhone. He now agrees :p

He informed me that it is being launched in Australia next month, exclusive to Vodafone retailers. The 16GB model will be available for all, but apparently he was told the 64GB is for “Vodafone employees only”. No confirmation on whether or not the 64GB is only available in Black.

Some interesting things he told me about Nokia’s presentation:

- Cocky attitude when discussing the N9. Do they think this is going to be their saviour?
- Stating why would they bother with and waste time “publishing banking apps when it can be done in the browser”. Does this mean app development isn’t a concern for Nokia? Or is this based on them releasing the N950 dev kits? Either way it doesn’t matter seeing as the N9 can adopt Android Apps based on Myriad’s Alien Dalvik.
- When asked about Sea Ray Nokia did not confirm (nor deny) that it would run on WP7.5 Mango. Could it be a Nokia variant of the OS?
- Reason for N8 faults – Since the device is manufactured in an extremely cold climate, when it is shipped around the world (countries with hotter climates) the parts expand and breakage, as well as disconnection, of hardware occurs.
- No mention that they are limiting the number of handsets produced. Nokia really thinks this has game changing potential it seems.

He also said when he gets the device (presumably before public launch), he will allow me an exclusive hands-on for the readers here at MyNokiaBlog. I’m quite excited :)

Knowing that the N9 is indeed confirmed for September and the rumour that the iPhone 5/iPhone 4S is to be released in the “last weeks” of September, based off rumours of an “event-blackout” seen only for the launch of the previous iPhones, Will we see the N9 and iPhone 5 go head-to-head?

Michael

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Category: Firmware Update, Linux, MeeGo, Nokia, Nseries, Qt, Symbian, Windows Phone

About the Author ()

Hi! My name is Michael. Like the others, I'm also a Student, living here in Sydney. I have a real passion for the latest technology and I'm a real Nokia buff! My aim is to keep those of you, like myself, updated with the latest in what's going on in the Nokia World. Currently sporting N9 & Lumia 820, with other Nokia devices in my posession. Get in touch on Twitter via @MFaroTusino, Google Plus or even simply drop me an email at mike.mnb[at]outlook.com or tips[at]mynokiablog.com

Comments (107)

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  1. Ftnrh says:

    Wow

    See the battle of iPhone 5 and n9!
    Nokia should play down the ecosystem,

    Cutetube
    Antsnes
    Are available for n9!

  2. stylinred says:

    i dont like that the N9 is coming out at the same time as the iphone5

    simply because iphone is going to garner all the attention :/

    • Michael Faro-Tusino says:

      Agreed. It would be interesting though to see the two go head-to-head, but knowing Apple, they’ll advertise it everywhere and people will see the iPhone and take it regardless.

    • jr says:

      If its good enough it shouldn’t be afraid of a head-to-head competition..

      • stylinred says:

        that’s silly because it can’t be head to head because the iphone already has a famed history (im speaking strictly of NA) and Nokia has a tarnished one or even a non-history since many don’t even know it

        • Just Visiting says:

          @stylinred…Is the N9 being released in North America?

          The bottom line is, the N9 has to start somewhere! WP7, while less than 1 year old, had to start somewhere!

          As jr. stated, *if* it’s good, and *if* people want it over the iphone, WP7, a bevy of Android devices,Blackberry, or Symbian, and barring no dissuasion from carrier sales people, consumers will purchase it.

      • Veil says:

        Sure, but that doesn’t help much because iphone will put so thick shadow for the next 3 months that nobody hardly notices any other phones, not to even talk about niche phone like N9.

        We all know it.

        Rather seen N9 come out earlier.

    • foo says:

      There might be a positive effect too: N9 vs. iPhone5 will be the main battle, and Android phones are gonna stay in the shadows. This battle will be good for N9 marketing. I also think that N9 has lot’s of potential to beat iPhone in UX and features (like the super browser)

      • Michael Faro-Tusino says:

        Never considered the repercussions of a drop in Android publicity if the main battle is N9 and iPhone. That may actually help Nokia gain a bit of ground.

      • h3csc says:

        No general consumer give a damn about that. Go ask anyone on the street and ask them if they ever heard of N9 they won’t know but when it is iPhone everyone know about that. See how good the ad campaign from Apple is.

        • j says:

          why should they now about it? have there been any ads? people who are interested in smartphones know about it.

          btw.: for are newspaper it’s much more interesting to talk about iphone vs n9 than about iphone alone.

          and the story. the comeback of nokia. i’m loving it!

      • ssdh says:

        Well we could never be too sure. Jobs might have something new again, I heard stuff about a better browser, and definitely faster specs…

      • Jezz says:

        interesting point, i guess…

    • ssdh says:

      Well yes, the name itself “iPhone” is an established brand, and a very good one, but I think that the N9 could still have the chance, and could still garner higher customer satisfaction rates…

    • YouKnowYouFail says:

      it’s flop’s way of destroying its sales

    • Jeff says:

      There’s no fucking reason this thing couldn’t have been out as early as 6mth ago. (yes really)
      Those that have been following this in huge depth over the yrs know that.
      It’s patently obvious that asshole/associates have deliberately stalled the N9xx for as long as they possibly can.

      The odds are now almost 100% against it:

      Given it could’ve been released as early as 6mth ago, but was deliberately held back.
      Given the fact that it’s distribution is being deliberately constrained.
      Given the fact that it won’t be priced super aggressively.
      Given that there’s been very limited propaganda/marketing around it, & that’ll remain.
      Given the whole uncertainty that’s been injected into the platform’s future since Feb.

      All that combines very nastily, especially in a market that’s already very competitive.
      And Elop knows that full well….

      In the end there’s still a tiny glimmer of hope it can succeed.
      But it depends on what it offers most users WRT the overall built-in package.
      If it ‘holds it’s own’ there, then despite Elop’s best efforts to constrain it…
      There is still a tiny chance for momentum to build.

      But it’ll absolutely need a grass roots effort to bolster that chance.
      If we believe in it’s potential, & we want it to have a future.
      Then we all have to effusively recommend it to family/friends.
      Despite their preconceived notions/bias….

      When it’s out read as many reviews as you can.
      Both single and comparative, and then form your opinion.
      I think we’ll all be pleasantly surprised by the final product.

      Everything I’ve read suggests it’s very compelling, & that’s from “behind the drapes”…
      As Nokia’s not showcased MeeGo’s functionality to anywhere near the same depth as MS has for WP.
      Fuck, even Nokia’s talking-up WP more than MeeGo nowadays!
      Which must upset some of their engineers (the ones who haven’t left) infinitely.
      Particularly those who have put years of work into it.

      • viipottaja says:

        nonsense. btw, it still apparently doesn’t e.g. sync with google calendar, does not have yahoo IM, at least some builds of the email client are STILL a bit buggy. It was not ready earlier. pure and simple.

        • Hypnopottamus says:

          Thanks for the info. That sucks. What is it w/ Nokia and PIM sync issues? This is what drove me to another platform. I was hoping MeeGo or even WP7 would fix this so I can return. Hopefully this gets fixed!

          • Viipottaja says:

            Yeah, I hope that too, i.e. that the release FW will have those fixed. This info is btw from DSMobile (on Mobile-Review forum) who is apparently using the N9 on a daily basis now.

        • Jeff says:

          So what…

          You don’t think Android and iOS had “massive” flaws/limitations when they were released for the very 1st time?

          You do realize this is their 1st truly commercial release right?
          Memo 4/5 simply doesn’t count…
          Maemo was just developed ‘publicly’, much earlier on in it’s life than iOS/Android.

          That’s not to say that 6mth ago puts them in the clear.
          It doesn’t, and we know all the stupid reasons behind why they fell behind.

          Releases early, release often, iterate!
          I’m sure that’s what most harmatten devs wanted to do up to 6mth ago, but nooooo.
          I wonder why…

        • Jeff says:

          Yahoo IM, who cares? Besides…

          That’s something that’s easily added-in later, thanks to the framework used.

          I’ve not read anything about google calendar being a problem.

          Email client buggy, in what way?

          None of those things are show-stoppers for getting it out there.

          Never stopped iOS/Android in their early days.

          • Hypnopottamus says:

            You have a good point, but you have to realize that the HUGE difference is that although Nokia says it will continue support for the platform, they still only consider it an “experimental” platform. Hoping for further development on already established, developed for platforms is fine (like iOS and Android). Unfortunately, it may/may not be a gamble when it comes to the N9.

            • Jeff says:

              You have a point. Perhaps that’s the single-biggest reason why it wasn’t out sooner.

              Because devs know that support for them to continue with regular “major” updates after release, is unlikely.
              Even if the N9 does well! (in spite of all the road-blocks being place in front of it)

  3. Last Hope says:

    N9 – great OS, camera & design, but is on 1 year old hardware, how can it compete with iPhone5? :-(

    • Michael Faro-Tusino says:

      iPhone and iOS are too restrictive. N9 will lure those who want freedom in their mobile. iOS is only good for one thing, APPS. Soon, people will get over the novelty of having countless numbers of apps and focus back onto build quality and enjoyment of handsets.

      • Scapegoat81 says:

        +1,000,000,000 @ Michael Faro

        • Michael Faro-Tusino says:

          Thanks mate, comments like that are always appreciated :)

          • Scapegoat81 says:

            I’ve been sayin for a while now, the whole app thing is just a craze. Like @ one time it was Nextel with the 2 way radio, or the Razor, the thinnest flip phone, or even Blackberry, being one of the greatest business phones with superior email capabilities. Like these past devices, they become irrelavant when something comes along that does EVERYTHING that they do: quicker, easier, & more efficiently within the OS. Granted, i dont think the iphone is dissapearing anytime soon, but the UI & UX of the N9 is a start in the right direction.

      • steal swipe ui says:

        iphone 5 will be improved on hardware spec, nothing else.

      • nt says:

        that is actually a good “slogan” that Nokia can use ;) “Freedom with your phone”

    • foo says:

      Do you think that the processor is the only thing that matter in hardware? What about camera, RAM, battery software, etc ?

    • eMad says:

      The only thing that I wish it had on the hardware side was a Dual-Core chip.

      NOT because I want more power, but because these chips seem to be able to handle recording video @ 1080p, which I’m going to guess the iPhone is going to have on it anyways.

      • Guest says:

        1080p is nothing without Carl Zeiss. And Steve Jobs will never get Carl Zeiss.

        • Chrom says:

          Bingo! 1080p is a check-box only feature if you can’t extract 2mpx of resolution out of your lenses or your sensor smothers the detail into oblivion (like HTC for instance)

    • Jezz says:

      I totally agree. It beats the iP4 “all up”.
      But it’s definitely going to struggle against iP5.
      And not just because iPhone’s hugely popular.

      By all accts iP5′s hardware changes are likely to be quite minor compared past releases.
      But the software overhaul is arguably the single-biggest one they’ve done yet.

      And the hardware overhaul won’t be one to snicker at.
      I’d say it’d be enough to best the N9 in most areas.
      It won’t be much of a difference overall hardware-wise.
      But once you throw-in the OS overhaul, the N9′s going to have a very tough fight.

      Especially considering that senior management doesn’t give shit abut it, & pushing it hard!
      If fuckstick Elop had allowed it to be released 6mth ago.
      It’d be a in a far, far, better position now.

      Release early, release often, iterate, yadda yadda.
      Hello!? Worked for iOS/Android!?
      Both were ‘steaming piles’ when they 1st came out.

      • guest says:

        Shut up. iOS 1 was very polished, that’s why it’s popular. Android is cheap, that’s why it’s popular. ‘Release often’ doesn’t mean releasing unstable. That mantra is part of lean development and the purpose is to cut non-wanted features early. It doesn’t mean to release bad software. Buggy features or non-polished UX might give the wrong signal.

        This is even more important on highly competitive markets where user experience and perception really matters. If it were released 6 months ago, people would have said ‘typical Nokia SW’ etc. and all the hype would’ve been lost.

        • Jeff says:

          Shut up?
          WTF are you talking about, you shut up!

          iOS and android absolutely were not.
          And I use them and I like them…
          No need to act like some kind of offended nancy.

          Point is you get it out early, you don’t need to have every freaking feature under the sun.
          You iterate, you bug fix, & you gradually add more & more features, “over time”.

          Timing & exposure in the market before things become too overshadowed by iOS/Andorid/etc is more important in today’s hyper-competitive market.

          There’s no doubt they could’ve had it out as early as 6mth ago, if they wanted to.*
          Cut out some of the features, keep mostly the same polished UX.
          Start to get traction….

          In my chats to harmattan devs the impression I got was, this is what they wanted.
          Release earlier, rather than later…
          Of course this wasn’t a universally held view, other devs disagreed.

          *the final OS build, not the entire ph!

        • Jezz says:

          By “steaming piles” I meant they were feature-sparse w/the occasional bug/glitch when they 1st came out.
          I wasn’t suggesting they’re crap, I use them & I like them, so you STFU.

          Nokia’s built so much functionality into their 1st major “consumer” release.*
          So much that it’s comparable to** the very latest iOS/Android builds.
          And Apple/Google have only got to where they are now, after years of gradual improvements.

          There’s no reason why Nokia can’t have done something similar.
          I wasn’t suggesting you release extremely buggy software.
          I was suggesting you release less feature packed software, that’s relatively stable/bug-free.

          *And unlike Harmattan, Maemo 4/5 don’t count as true commercial releases.
          If you know the history, & changes in direction between the releases, you’d know that.

          **Perhaps even superior, we don’t/won’t have the full picture till it’s finally out.
          But even from the limited glimpses we’re getting (unlike what MS’s doing with WP), it’s extremely feature packed.

  4. jr says:

    Lets see how it goes.. we will be comparing it to the Sea ray sales figures

  5. Grazy says:

    Michael Faro-Tusino – was it you who heard rumors of a UK release? if so can you ask your friend at Vodafone if the UK are likely to get this in September too?

    I have just been to a local branch here, and they claim to know nothing! I really want this phone! it doesn’t bother me if there are 100,000s of apps. just the better ones will do :)

    • Michael Faro-Tusino says:

      Yes it was. I will do some investigating and get a definitive answer for you. The rumours he read pointed at it being released in August as he told me.
      People in the UK (and other markets) should go have a chat with their local dealer, often enough they disclose more then they probably should.

      But to answer your question Grazy, I’ll definitely do some searching for you.

      • Grazy says:

        Like i said, I’m not having much luck in the local shops! no ones talking! i guess they just don’t know anything! I have emailed Nokia and they gave a very vague answer but did tell me to ignore the rumours and refer to the Nokia website from time to time! that would be great if you could find out any more details!! I’ll check in from time to time! :)

  6. Glenn says:

    Its mostly the same information that was mentioned, when i handled the N9.

    Coming to all cariers while 64gb will be exclusive to (vodafone?)

    Nokia has a huge marketing budget for the N9 in Australia and are going to throw everything at it

    • Michael Faro-Tusino says:

      “Nokia has a huge marketing budget for the N9 in Australia and are going to throw everything at it”

      I hope you’re right. I may see it quite reasonably priced and may even see many Aussie devs throw some innovation Nokia’s way.

      • Lloydo says:

        Can you ask your source about Three?

        Also I find the idea that Vodafone would push the N9 so hard strange, especially if it were at the expense of Android.

        Vodafone have been heavily funding advertising promoting Android as an OS (with no mention of devices).

  7. Scapegoat81 says:

    +1,000,000,000

  8. outdated os says:

    SJ only needs to hire people who will parrot the ff: “meego is doa”, “n9 has no ecosystem/zero apps” blah3x to kill it. *crosses fingers for nokia*

    • ssdh says:

      Agreed, other than the imminent overshadowing by iPhone 5 over the N9, one of the bigger “threats” would be the hardcore iPhone fans. But what’s more of a concern would be if the salespeople themselves are iPhone fans, and decide not to prioritize on promoting the N9.

  9. sid says:

    the funny thing is ive been saying “why do apps when it can run in the browser” since the n900, stocks websites are the best example. I can get my full ticker list and make all my trades quick and easy, unlike the comparatively simple apps the websites offer.

    • A-S-D says:

      The only point of apps is they use less data because most of the stuff is already there so they provide a rich experience without the need to download a comparitively large amount of data

      That is the only downside to web apps/mobile websites that I can think of

      • steal swipe ui says:

        and it is easier and fast to find the info you want with an APP

      • Hypnopottamus says:

        And it is optimized for viewing on a small screen like a mobile phone i.e little to no scrollong involved. With a website, you still have to scroll and many times logon screens are popups.

        Along the same lines, it kills me when people say apps are pointless. Yes, having in-built capability is preferred, but you can’t build in everything. Apps extend your phones usibility in certain situations. Official support from services through apps make things more possible. One example is banking apps. Yes you can visit the website via browser, but then you run into the “problem” mentioned above, scrolling and popup windows.

        • Viipottaja says:

          Exactly. Just saying you can everything on the browser (which is true) and therefore you don’t need apps at all is just nonsense UNTIL Bank’s and everyone will have fully mobile optimized version of their websites available.

        • Jeff says:

          I’m not aware of many major banks that don’t have site’s that are optimized for mobile browsers.
          At least here in Australia….

        • A-S-D says:

          Actually, mobile optimised apps don’t have a lot of scrolling because they’re designed for mobiles

          I never said you don’t need apps, I just pointed out their main advantage and the reason why they would be better, however, that is really the only reason when compared to a mobile website

          You won’t have the problem with pop-ups and new windows if its a decent, well-designed MOBILE website, just like a decent, well-designed app being easy to use

          I would prefer a FREE mobile app because it offers a richer experience without the need to download a lot of data as in the case of a mobile website. I did not say they’re useless. And, ‘steal swipe ui’, an app is only easier to use and find information if they bothered to give it a better design than the mobile website, which they often do because most people that use mobile websites often access them from dumbphones which can only install java apps so they don’t go to the effort when making the mobile websites.

        • Glenn says:

          The reason he said bank apps are pointless is because most banks apps just goto a mobile optimised website, why do you need an app for that when you can just have a shortcut?

          I hate those apps that are nothing but a portal and provide no extra level of functionality

          • Hypnopottamus says:

            The point isn’t about banks. The point is that just visiting a website isn’t a replacement for apps because many sites aren’t optimized for viewing on mobile. Having an app would make not only easier to view, but easier to interact with.

  10. qmot says:

    WOW!!
    IOS 5 vs Meego Harmatan v1.2

    Ohh Where is my popcorn!?

  11. Vlado says:

    “When asked about Sea Ray Nokia did not confirm (nor deny) that it would run on WP7.5 Mango. Could it be a Nokia variant of the OS?”

    it is going to be whatever we see on the rest of the phones with wp7 mango from samsung,lg,htc.. it won’t be any different.

  12. paul says:

    Will the android app thing definitely work? I would love to swop my n8 for one of these, but whatsapp has become an essential way to communicate across boarders!

    • Jezz says:

      No, that’s bullshit.
      Read around in the maemo forums.
      Most likely it’ll never happen.
      Idiots keep saying:
      “Oh but it’s Linux, so it will happen1″
      WRONG…..
      I hope it does…
      But looking very unlikely at this late stage.

  13. Jezz says:

    You’re fucking kidding me…
    Why the fuck are they not making the 64GB available?

    What, & so Nokia’s only making it available via the one carrier too?

    So can we also buy it unsubsidized via them, or other retailers?
    (i.e. not in a contract)

    What a fucking crock!!!
    Man once I get this phone I’m fucking done with Nokia, that’s srsly it.
    All the shit they’re pulling with this fucking release.
    They’re absolute fucktards!

    And there’s no way this thing couldn’t have been out “at least” 2mths ago.
    It’s been deliberately held back, Elop’s an absolute fuck stick.

  14. et3rnal says:

    I asked a friend on Optus “Australia” and he said they getting the N9 Exclusive to them!!! lol

    • Jezz says:

      Are you absolutely sure?

      This story suggests it’s exclusive to vodafone resellers.
      And therefore won’t be purchasable anywhere else.
      And they’re not selling the 64GB!
      And they’re not making it available contract-free!

      Faarrrrk!!!

  15. Jezz says:

    [- Cocky attitude when discussing the N9. Do they think this is going to be their saviour?]

    Yeah right, they really believe that…
    Given everything they’ve done to ensure it’s “anything but” their savior.
    WP’s their new “golden child” now….

    [- Stating why would they bother with and waste time “publishing banking apps when it can be done in the browser”.]

    Well of course….
    If you’ve got a decent browser you don’t have to bother with “banking apps”

    [Does this mean app development isn’t a concern for Nokia? Or is this based on them releasing the N950 dev kits?]

    No idea WTF you’re talking about.
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D5DuHP3tyrs22StXBkUqBLmWv1Fk5UtA-KvrPueiZJY/edit?hl=en_US

    Of course, not long after the N9′s out…
    They’ll probably limit the ability of devs to deliver major upgrades. (knowing elop)
    So we’ll be lucky if we get 1x major update.
    Then for the remainder of the (approx) 2yrs, we’ll get nothing but minor updates/bug-fixes.

    WRT commercial apps from Nokia or them helping/coercing 3rd parties to deliver them “after” the N9′s out?
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha….

    We’ll have to rely solely on the community developing it’s own tempo/momentum.
    If we’re lucky that may mean increased commercial input, but it’s unlikely.
    Nokia’s going to do very little there to help.

    [Either way it doesn’t matter seeing as the N9 can adopt Android Apps based on Myriad’s Alien Dalvik.]

    Wrong. It’s never been officially confirmed.
    And if hasn’t by now, it probably not happening.
    And the tools out there that keep saying: “it’s Linux it’ll happen” are clueless.
    Hello it’s a proprietary solution.
    Nokia has to be interested before it can happen.
    And Elop just doesn’t give a shit.

    [- When asked about Sea Ray Nokia did not confirm (nor deny) that it would run on WP7.5 Mango. Could it be a Nokia variant of the OS?]

    Who gives a fuck.

    [- No mention that they are limiting the number of N9's produced. Nokia really thinks this has game changing potential it seems.]

    Oh really you believe that?
    Had your ears/eyes open to all the developments lately?

  16. @UGN999 says:

    Today, I went to my local store (Carphone Warehouse) in UK. They said there is 50 units of N9 in their headoffice now. So thats its defintely coming to uk (at least to Carphone Warehouse) as they said. But they’re not sure about launch date.

  17. Guest says:

    Should be very interesting to see Nokia N9 eat iPhone5 in mobile newspaper tests.

    People who felt the N9 say they have not known anything of better quality feel. The Rolls Roys of mobiles.

  18. Mac says:

    The ip5 is going to be really good. This is 1 of the reasons for the delay other than the hardware issues they were having initially. After they saw what the n9 was about, they probably went back to the drawing board to relook and change things. We need to take cogniscance of the fact that the iPhone is in its 5th incarnate as compared to the n9 in its 1st. Lots of items have been fixed and bettered with updates and os changes along the way. For this reason the iPhone has become more polished over time. We all know that it still pales in comparison to symbian but bare in mind the apps they have are really, really good. Sure at the core of wp7 we have certain apps baked into the os that doesnt require these apps in the 1st place but one cannot overlook the fact that they have the apps to start with. At least they have that option and good ones for that matter that works pretty damn well with their os because of apples strict QC of apps to work fluently with the os. Wp7 with ms are mimmicing the same so we are definitely going to see the high quality apps in the wp7 market place.

    N9? Well i dont believe it is shipping with baked in stuff into the os. There arent many good apps to begin with that are on Qt as well. The people that buy smartphones nowadays desire these apps to begin with and if it isnt at the heart of the os then they’d want it in an app. Were do they get it from then? Knowing Nokias history and couple that to the fact that they arent pushing the N9 hard then what else can the buyer expect? To get these core features in an app? It would not come quickly enough as an app too as that would take time to develop and hence leave the buyer with bitter regrets for long periods. I dont believe that nokia have taken the time and effort to polish off core functions that made blackberry such a marvel with people to stay in tune with the virtual world. Nokia have failed to deliver this inhouse before with their current phones so i believe nothing would change here in the N9 as well. That said, adopting wp7 may have addressed those shortcomings that they lacked. So on this front, iPhone is 1 up.

    On the hardware side we know what is to be expected from the N9 and it looks damn good. We cannot expect the iPhone5 to be released with lacklustre hardware and it would be something really good that matches the advantage that the N9 has. Remember nobody has seen the new ip5 and people would just run out and get it only later to find out the hardware has issues. Too late. The sale was made and they have to live with it. Blind buying just for the status and brand that they love. Jobs would just step up and state that other phones have the same issues so nothing new but here buy this thing and it solves the problem! Sales continue skyrocket as normal. Now couple that to the fact that ip5 is shipping with a the craze, a dual core chip, we have the crux for the bullshit that would sell this phone like hotcakes and it is sure to be marketed like hell too. Be sure to expect some punches below the belt from them as the N9 has an old single core chip. Another point to the iPhone 5.
    Lastly the user experience on the N9 is way better than that of anything out there. It is one of the biggest aspects that makes me desire to get this phone. The iPhone doesnt have the same ui but it is tried and tested. It is getting some changes but it would still remain efficient and a phoe that just works, maybe after a couple of updates even better. So what would the user require? Something that they are used to or something yet to prove itself? Most people are also locked into an os by virtue of their apps purchased. Throw that away and start over? Tough one here but converting new users to a new os is a tall order but me as a nokia user, it is rather easy to do. I’d say even scores here.

    Launching the N9 at the same time as the ip5 is a disastrous move and one that is surely to count against the N9. It is forcing people to choose and in haste the ip5 would come out on top. I for one will get my N9. Descision is made but i’m just one of millions that would and the rest would be like sheep and go for the apple of their eye! Lets hope nokia have added some wonders to the final launched n9.

    • Just Visiting says:

      @Mac…This is a hilarious post! To think that Apple gives a care about the N9…Ha! The iPhone delays had absolutely zilch to do with N9 or any other competing device.

      The iPhone is a great device, and the iphone 4 is still kickin’ major ass. The iphone ‘next’ will continue the trend.

      The bottom line is people are going to buy the iPhone regardless of what else it out there, regardless of what the ‘others’ can do…Simply, the Apple/iPhone brand is the epitomy of iconic, and that is not going to change!

      • Mac says:

        That is what i said! The N9 going up against the iPhone makes no sense. Like duh! Read the post properly. And who said that the n9 was the initial cause of the delays. I said that too! It must have caused ripples with them in that camp nevertheless and that is just speculation from my side. Like read the post man! Duh!

        • Just Visiting says:

          Yes, Mac…So that I am clear, I found your speculation regarding Apple to be hilarious!

          At the end of the day, it does not matter when the N9 is going to be released…the N9 will face competition, at any point within the calendar year, from not only the iPhone (iPhone4 and iPhone’next’) but from other oems and operating systems; if consumers want it more than the others, and aren’t tied to a contract with their current device, they’ll get the N9.

          A lot of cool, new devices around the bend in Q3/Q4, so it will be quite interesting to see the direction that consumers are heading to with their purchases.

        • Jeff says:

          It was already revealed what the reasons for delay are.
          Damn my mem, believe it was to do with:

          *NFC
          *sourcing some parts (forget what) in large no’s
          *1-2 other reasons which I forget now.

          But definitely nothing to do with N9.

    • Jeff says:

      Disagree.

      The thing that will actually stand the N9 in good stead “is” it’s software, perhaps more so than it’s hardware.
      I think you need to have a much closer look at what’s “baked in”.
      It sounds like you think it’s quite limited, it is not.

      The general public’s not getting as detailed a picture of Harmattan, as we are of WP.
      Nokia’s simply not bothered shouting out “all” the features they’re building in.
      MS’s handled the publicity war far more effectively.
      If one wants to find-out heaps about harmattan, one has to dig deeply themselves.
      This vagueness is understandable, given Nokia now supports WP as it’s primary OS.

      Having said that…
      The N9 w/it’s excellent baked-in software will still struggle against an iP5 with hardware that “overall” will prolly be better.
      And an OS that “overall” will be on an even keel, perhaps slightly better.
      Purely a guesstimate… very hard to know.

      Re apps, they add an extra “battering ram” for iP5.
      But far more important is built-in functionality.
      If N9 competes well there, & is still ‘okay’ hardware-wise.
      Then it’ll attract the odd user that may have upgraded/switched-to iP5/Android.

      There’s several other things that add to the unattractiveness for potential users.
      And commercial apps are only part of that…
      https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D5DuHP3tyrs22StXBkUqBLmWv1Fk5UtA-KvrPueiZJY/edit?hl=en_US
      CBF’d typing what they are….
      Sure I already covered it in earlier posts in this thread.

      Bottom-line it’s far too early to know how the software/hardware compares.
      There’s still not a final picture of N9 WRT software, & to a lesser extent hardware.*
      And the picture’s even blurrier WRT iP5 hardware/software.

      So we could be pleasantly surprised, or utterly mortified.
      Remains to be seen….

      *The way Harmattan/N9′s covered in mainstream media is often very incorrect.
      One can get a far more accurate idea by trawling community forums/mail-lists/IRC etc.
      Apple won’t allow that ambiguity in it’s release of the iP5 :(

  19. Conor says:

    I will never understand why the raving Internet masses have decided that Elop is the enemy, despite no conclusive evidence to prove he has done anything to lessen the N9′s chances in the marketplace. Get your heads screwed on right.

    • ssdh says:

      Shocking, right?!?!

    • Jezz says:

      No conclusive evidence?
      You’re kidding me…
      “Head in the sand” much?

      • Conor says:

        I take it from the fact that you have presented no evidence that you agree with me.

        • Jezz says:

          Um….

          *Announce WP as the new primary platform before Harmattan’s (the 1st commercial/consumer focused iteration of Maemo) had a chance to prove itself.

          *Relegate MeeGo to an “experimental/R&D platform”.

          *Slightly decrease no. of dev behind the project by some leaving, or redirecting them elsewhere.

          *Most he’s kept in place, but apparently there may be another down-size mid 2012.

          *Vague throughout the entire year as to exactly what future MeeGo has.

          *Limited to zilch “carrier” releases in countless countries!
          [particularly in some of the biggest economies + smartphone markets in the world!
          It seems it'll be quite widely available retail-wise, but with few big economies offering carrier subsidization, uptake will be stunted.]

          This happened with the N900, & was deliberate on Nokia’s part.
          The N900 was considered very much as a learning phone by them.
          “Step 5 of 6…..”
          The N9 was not to be the same experimental device.

          *Showcase searay the day after N9 is finally announced.
          Even though it wasn’t ‘even close’ to being ready, compared to N9/MeeGo.

          *Vague assertion that it may not be supported at all in future devices.
          (interview with non-English rag, which has since been explained as misinterpreted, but hasn’t stopped popular sites claiming otherwise)

          *constantly delayed availability to “any” markets in the world
          Since being announced over 7wks ago, we still have only a vague idea of exact dates for most countries.
          There’s no doubt the OS builds were solid enough “at least” 2mth ago.
          But this is somewhat of a hallmark of Nokia. So it may not be directly attributable to senior management.

          I can go on….

          The things he’s chosen to do have most definitely had an impact!
          And arguing otherwise just smacks of undying love for him, simply because you’ve hitched your wagon “only” to WP.

          I have no problem with WP, & will use it at some point.
          What I’ve always had a problem with is the bizarre “1x OS only” policy.
          Samsung, the fastest growing handset maker (smart/dumb) in the world, works with 3x!
          No reason why Nokia couldn’t have juggled 2x.
          Sure WP could’ve had more of the emphasis in the 1st year or so.
          Just so long as it was “made clear” that MeeGo was still very much in the plans.

        • Jezz says:

          Another big factor why carrier uptake is so limited…

          Is because of how N9/MeeGo has been framed by senior management since Mid Feb.
          Of course many carriers are going to be less interested, if Nokia’s ‘seemingly’ not backing it 100% LT.

          But an equally significant factor, is their own non-attempts at pushing it hard to carriers.
          Apparently because they’re concerned it’ll lesson WP’s chances.

          Which is an overly simplistic view, & I’ve no doubt they know that.
          They could’ve geared things such that, they were more complimentary than competitive.

          • Conor says:

            “*Announce WP as the new primary platform before Harmattan’s (the 1st commercial/consumer focused iteration of Maemo) had a chance to prove itself.”

            In January a consensus was reached that it would take too long to push MeeGo down the pricing tiers, and would be too difficult to integrate it with different hardware. In addition, it’s debatable that if they have given Harmattan “a chance to prove itself” it may have been too late to enact such a radical paradigm shift.

            Next 4 are pretty inconsequential.

            “*Limited to zilch “carrier” releases in countless countries!
            [particularly in some of the biggest economies + smartphone markets in the world!
            It seems it'll be quite widely available retail-wise, but with few big economies offering carrier subsidization, uptake will be stunted.]”

            You don’t know this, and information has recently surfaced suggesting AT&T will carry it. Don’t jump to conclusions.

            “Showcase searay the day after N9 is finally announced.
            Even though it wasn’t ‘even close’ to being ready, compared to N9/MeeGo.”

            Different context. The N9 was given a massive press release & presentation at Nokia Connections, the Sea Ray was shown to a small group of people and the footage was leaked. People will talk till they’re blue in the face about intended leaks but all that can ever be (without confirmation from the presenter themselves) is an inference. Coincidences do happen, and more often than people think. Again, you’re jumping to conclusions.

            “*Vague assertion that it may not be supported at all in future devices.
            (interview with non-English rag, which has since been explained as misinterpreted, but hasn’t stopped popular sites claiming otherwise)”

            You even point out the questionable legitimacy of this point yourself, so I really don’t have to say anything here. What I will say though is that assuming the statement floating around these sites is false, it’s pretty poor decision-making skills to not respond to that.

            “*constantly delayed availability to “any” markets in the world
            Since being announced over 7wks ago, we still have only a vague idea of exact dates for most countries.
            There’s no doubt the OS builds were solid enough “at least” 2mth ago.
            But this is somewhat of a hallmark of Nokia. So it may not be directly attributable to senior management.”

            As you say yourself, this is a hallmark of Nokia. The press release for the Nokia N8 is dated April 27th 2010; the phone was released September 30th. Compared to that timeline the N9 is doing pretty well, especially considering Swipe UI only had work begun on it in late 2010 after the original UX was scrapped, as was the original hardware. That’s a much better turnaround time than you think, given Nokia’s traditional turnaround can be as high as 30 months. Finally, the OS builds of 2 months ago were not “solid enough”, and this is obvious enough when reading through developer posts on forum.meego.com. Besides, believe it or not but the software has to be installed on hardware. We have no idea if the specific ideosyncracies of N9 manufacturing have affected the ability to mass-produce the product.

            “Samsung, the fastest growing handset maker (smart/dumb) in the world, works with 3x!”

            Samsung is much more than a handset manufacturer. Handset sales for Q2

          • Conor says:

            “*Announce WP as the new primary platform before Harmattan’s (the 1st commercial/consumer focused iteration of Maemo) had a chance to prove itself.”

            In January a consensus was reached that it would take too long to push MeeGo down the pricing tiers, and would be too difficult to integrate it with different hardware. In addition, it’s debatable that if they have given Harmattan “a chance to prove itself” it may have been too late to enact such a radical paradigm shift.

            Next 4 are pretty inconsequential.

            “*Limited to zilch “carrier” releases in countless countries!
            [particularly in some of the biggest economies + smartphone markets in the world!
            It seems it'll be quite widely available retail-wise, but with few big economies offering carrier subsidization, uptake will be stunted.]”

            You don’t know this, and information has recently surfaced suggesting AT&T will carry it. Don’t jump to conclusions.

            “Showcase searay the day after N9 is finally announced.
            Even though it wasn’t ‘even close’ to being ready, compared to N9/MeeGo.”

            Different context. The N9 was given a massive press release & presentation at Nokia Connections, the Sea Ray was shown to a small group of people and the footage was leaked. People will talk till they’re blue in the face about intended leaks but all that can ever be (without confirmation from the presenter themselves) is an inference. Coincidences do happen, and more often than people think. Again, you’re jumping to conclusions.

            “*Vague assertion that it may not be supported at all in future devices.
            (interview with non-English rag, which has since been explained as misinterpreted, but hasn’t stopped popular sites claiming otherwise)”

            You even point out the questionable legitimacy of this point yourself, so I really don’t have to say anything here. What I will say though is that assuming the statement floating around these sites is false, it’s pretty poor decision-making skills to not respond to that.

            “*constantly delayed availability to “any” markets in the world
            Since being announced over 7wks ago, we still have only a vague idea of exact dates for most countries.
            There’s no doubt the OS builds were solid enough “at least” 2mth ago.
            But this is somewhat of a hallmark of Nokia. So it may not be directly attributable to senior management.”

            As you say yourself, this is a hallmark of Nokia. The press release for the Nokia N8 is dated April 27th 2010; the phone was released September 30th. Compared to that timeline the N9 is doing pretty well, especially considering Swipe UI only had work begun on it in late 2010 after the original UX was scrapped, as was the original hardware. That’s a much better turnaround time than you think, given Nokia’s traditional turnaround can be as high as 30 months. Finally, the OS builds of 2 months ago were not “solid enough”, and this is obvious enough when reading through developer posts on forum.meego.com. Besides, believe it or not but the software has to be installed on hardware. We have no idea if the specific ideosyncracies of N9 manufacturing have affected the ability to mass-produce the product.

            “Samsung, the fastest growing handset maker (smart/dumb) in the world, works with 3x!”

            Samsung is much more than a handset manufacturer. Handset sales for Q2 2011 amounted to 11.69 trillion Korean won (7.58 bn Euro) in revenue, Samsung Electronics Co. as a whole made 39.44 trillion won (25.56 bn Euro) in revenue. The company as a whole made 144.59 bn Euro in revenue in 2010.

            In comparison, Nokia’s handset revenue was 4.9 bn Euro, and the company as a whole made 9.3bn. That’s over 50% of revenue, compared to only 5% of revenue in Samsung’s case. Moreover, Nokia will STILL be developing MeeGo in the future (nothing has been said to indicate otherwise), as well as supporting Symbian through to 2016 (with 12 devices [I think?] planned for release over the next year).

            As I initially said (and still maintain), I will never understand people who have decided Elop is the enemy. Even putting aside the fact that ALL OF THESE DECISIONS WERE MADE BY THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND NOT JUST ELOP, nothing you have said is particularly damning in any way.

            You said you could “go on”, I’d like to see you do it.

            • Conor says:

              Slight error on my part; Samsung’s handset revenue share is around 21%. Apologies. Point remains more than valid, however.

            • Jezz says:

              [In January a consensus was reached that it would take too long to push MeeGo down the pricing tiers, and would be too difficult to integrate it with different hardware.]

              This claim by management was already refuted by one of Nokia’s own adaptation engineers
              http://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/my-disagreement-with-elop-on-meego/

              [In addition, it’s debatable that if they had given Harmattan “a chance to prove itself” it may have been too late to enact such a radical paradigm shift.]

              Not sure exactly what you mean by radical paradigm shift.
              But yes, we’ll never know…

              [Next 4 are pretty inconsequential.]

              No they very much go to the point.
              Elop has had a hand to play.
              Not saying he’s the bogeyman.
              Just that the decision’s he/colleagues made.
              Have had a negative impact on MeeGo.
              And I don’t think it had to play out exactly the way it has.

              [You don’t know this, and information has recently surfaced suggesting AT&T will carry it. Don’t jump to conclusions.]

              I’ll eat my hat if a carrier in the US supports it.
              I know that story, came out 07/07 from iknownokia blog.
              Nothing else heard since…
              I hope I’m wrong though….

              [Different context. The N9 was given a massive press release & presentation at Nokia Connections, the Sea Ray was shown to a small group of people and the footage was leaked. People will talk till they’re blue in the face about intended leaks but all that can ever be (without confirmation from the presenter themselves) is an inference. Coincidences do happen, and more often than people think. Again, you’re jumping to conclusions.]

              Perhaps it wasn’t calculated at all.
              But it hasn’t stopped most of the blogosphere speculating that it was a deliberate grab for attention over N9/MeeGo.
              The harm on the ‘perception’ of MeeGo’s future becasue of it, is undeniable.

              [What I will say though is that assuming the statement floating around these sites is false, it’s pretty poor decision-making skills to not respond to that.]

              I’m not sure why management’s not addressed it.
              It’s possible they’re simply not aware.
              I can’t find the actual analysis of it now.
              What he actually said was more innocuous IIRC.

              [As you say yourself, this is a hallmark of Nokia. The press release for the Nokia N8 is dated April 27th 2010; the phone was released September 30th. Compared to that timeline the N9 is doing pretty well,]

              Yes but it wasn’t originally due 6mth before it’s announcement.
              Granted the changes to the UI delayed the N9′s release.
              But I still maintain it’s taken longer then it had to.

              I’ve never claimed that’s “Elop’s fault”
              Although some of the things that have happened since he assumed leadership.
              Prolly have inadvertently slowed it’s release, albeit minimally.

              [especially considering Swipe UI only had work begun on it in late 2010 after the original UX was scrapped, as was the original hardware. That’s a much better turnaround time than you think, given Nokia’s traditional turnaround can be as high as 30 months.]

              N9′s hardware was always part of the process, alongside the N950′s.
              It wasn’t suddenly inserted after the N950 was dropped.
              But yes, the UX change slowed things.

              [Finally, the OS builds of 2 months ago were not “solid enough”, and this is obvious enough when reading through developer posts on forum.meego.com.]

              You were able to observe this 2mth ago @forum.meego?
              Nothing of note could’ve been garnered 2mth ago RE “harmattan”.
              Only thing you would’ve been able to follow was Vanilla MeeGo.

              I was able to form a “vague” picture from various mail-lists & IRC channels.
              But just following harmattan in the past several wks+, it’s “very solid”.
              When iOS/Droid (particularly droid) 1st come out, they were far less feature packed, & yet still ‘buggy’.

              I’m certain it could’ve come out earlier than what it’s looking like.

              Particularly if they’d stemmed ‘feature creep’ in Dec, & released something relatively stable as early as 6mth ago.
              Tack on another 3mth+ to actually get it into people’s hands.

              [Besides, believe it or not but the software has to be installed on hardware. We have no idea if the specific ideosyncracies of N9 manufacturing have affected the ability to mass-produce the product.]

              This sort of thing’s usually pretty solid before mass production begins.
              It needs to be…

              [Samsung is much more than a handset manufacturer.
              Moreover, Nokia will STILL be developing MeeGo in the future (nothing has been said to indicate otherwise), as well as supporting Symbian through to 2016 (with 12 devices [I think?] planned for release over the next year)]

              I realize all that.
              There needs to be much clearer indication that MeeGo’s playing more of a role than a “research platform”.

              There’s no reason why Nokia couldn’t have juggled 2x OS’s.
              Especially as it’d long been “planned” (before Elop) that Symbian would eventually go away.

              [As I initially said (and still maintain), I will never understand people who have decided Elop is the enemy. Even putting aside the fact that ALL OF THESE DECISIONS WERE MADE BY THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND NOT JUST ELOP, nothing you have said is particularly damning in any way.]

              Well you can disagree if you want.
              But it still seems clear to me that actions taken by Elop/board/management have most definitely had an impact.

              I sometimes rant & get angry, but I understand the tough decisions Elop had to make, & the basis for most of them.
              But I’ll never agree it had to be handled quite the way they chose to.

              Ditching Symbian, well overdue. Ditching MeeGo at the same time instead of putting WP on an equal, or slightly higher, footing in the short-term.

              WTF?!
              Even today there’s far too much vagueness in direction.

              [You said you could “go on”, I’d like to see you do it.]

              Sorry, no time to “go on”
              You wouldn’t agree anyway.

              Cheers.

              • Conor says:

                - I respect Felipe for his work on msn-pecan, however he makes no effort to detail the effort it would take to adapt MeeGo to other platforms. Yeah sure you can develop 10 OMAP3 phones right now, but OMAP3 is already showing its age. Snapdragon isn’t. Poor argumentation really, and it leaves a lot of unknowns.

                - Of those 4 points I neglected to address, 3 were cost-cutting measures. How dare a CEO try to save money, right?

                - So you admit that the UI changes delayed the N9′s release, but think it’s taken longer than need be? Are you a Nokia engineer? If not, then why do your thoughts matter?

                - The N9 WAS created after the N950, it was created in response to questions regarding the quality of the hinge, as written by ArsTechnica and other sources: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/06/nokias-new-meego-based-n9-is-set-up-for-failure.ars

                - “You were able to observe this 2mth ago @forum.meego?” You’re nitpicking, and presenting a strawman argument. My point is that the developer devices have been shown to have several bugs in the software. Also, is there any real merit in comparing Harmattan to Android 1.5 & iPhone OS? We have iOS5 & Android 2.3 today, and they will set consumer expectation. You can be as certain as you like about the abilities of the OS in older builds, but it’s not up to you, and you’re hardly the one who should make that call.

                - Actually, I have given a reason why Nokia may not want to juggle multiple OS’, even though they still are (which you keep neglecting to mention). You have given no reasons. Please do so before attempting to refute my claims again.

                - Glad to see you secede somewhat towards the end, because it’s pretty obvious who’s right here. Again, the invitation to “go on” remains open.

                • Jezz says:

                  [I respect Felipe for his work on msn-pecan, however he makes no effort to detail the effort it would take to adapt MeeGo to other platforms. Yeah sure you can develop 10 OMAP3 phones right now, but OMAP3 is already showing its age. Snapdragon isn’t. Poor argumentation really, and it leaves a lot of unknowns.]

                  In fact, he does make an effort.
                  He explains why it’s just as adaptable for other platforms as WP, if not more.
                  If you think it’s so flawed…
                  Feel free to to make your case in that post.
                  Let me know if you do, I’d like to see what points you make.

                  [Of those 4 points I neglected to address, 3 were cost-cutting measures. How dare a CEO try to save money, right?]

                  Well, it may suit your argument to characterize them “only” as that.
                  But all 4x also highlight what’s been done, to impact MeeGo’s chances.
                  Not necessarily maliciously, but the side impact has been that.

                  [- So you admit that the UI changes delayed the N9′s release, but think it’s taken longer than need be? Are you a Nokia engineer? If not, then why do your thoughts matter?]

                  You say that as though I always denied UI changes had an impact.
                  No I’m not a Nokia engineer.
                  My thoughts may not matter towards how the project progresses.
                  But I’m perfectly entitled to them thanks.

                  [- The N9 WAS created after the N950, it was created in response to questions regarding the quality of the hinge, as written by ArsTechnica and other sources]

                  The N9 was not created ‘after’ the hinge issues.
                  That only came to the fore in approx. Jan.
                  There was always plans to have a slate harmattan immediately after the qwerty.
                  There was at least 2x arm-based harmattan phones planned before a transition to Intel SoC.

                  Don’t believe me if you want…
                  I’m certainly not going to trawl the net trying to find it.

                  [My point is that the developer devices have been shown to have several bugs in the software.]

                  I was merely asserting that it could’ve come out sooner.
                  Had there been more compromises in functionality.

                  [Also, is there any real merit in comparing Harmattan to Android 1.5 & iPhone OS?]

                  I was only citing them to make the point that Nok can iterate.
                  There’s no need to compete on every single feature count.
                  Release a smaller subset, get it out there, & improve from there.
                  This was esp. pertinent given the big project issues they hit.
                  Anyway it’s all pointless & hypothetical.

                  [- Actually, I have given a reason why Nokia may not want to juggle multiple OS’, even though they still are (which you keep neglecting to mention). You have given no reasons. Please do so before attempting to refute my claims again.]

                  And you keep acting like it’s “business as usual” w/MeeGo.
                  And nothing management’s done could possibly set-it-back.
                  So I guess we’re even…

                  I want a detailed explanation “from management” as-to-why 2x OS’s on a more-or-less equal footing was impossible.
                  Not 1x erroneous fact that only 21% of Samsung business is handsets, Vs Nokia’s 50%.

                  [- Glad to see you secede somewhat towards the end, because it’s pretty obvious who’s right here. Again, the invitation to “go on” remains open.]

                  LOL secede what!?
                  Obvious who’s right?
                  LOL, righto matey.
                  M04R P0w3R to you.

  20. Jared Morgan says:

    It’s just a shame that ScodyFone gets this killer handset first. I would never get a contract through these guys.

    I purchased my N8 outright, and will probably purchase the N9 outright as well. And the thing is that “Exclusive” generally means they sell it for 1 month exclusively, then everyone else can sell them.

    Of course, this restriction is only limited to retail outlets. I’m sure that N9 RM- code phones will be unlocked and up on ebay before it even launches. That was the case for the N8 here, and I’m sure the N9 will be similar.

  21. Jared Morgan says:

    “- Reason for N8 faults – Since the device is manufactured in an extremely cold climate, when it is shipped around the world (countries with hotter climates) the parts expand and breakage, as well as disconnection, of hardware occurs.”

    I think this is quite disturbing. I was a victim of this, and how Nokia didn’t think this would be a problem from a testbed or Quality Assurance standpoint is astoundingly short-sighted.

    Hopefully they now run their phones in a 35+ degree celcius room for extended periods to test this scenario.

  22. It is batter option to choose N9 but not best.

  23. Jezz says:

    Memories… tragic memories… :-/

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