Nokia Q3 Results published: Losses across the board, Impressive Asha Sales
Nokia released their Q3 results recently, showing losses across the board. It is an improvement compared to their Q2 results (comparing the operating profit between the quarters), which hopefully is a good indication of the future. Its a fairly lengthy report, but the main figures are easy to read;
“6.3 Million Smart Devices” were sold this quarter, compared to Q3 2011 where there were 16.8 million. That is a huge drop! It could have been affected by people not purchasing Lumias due to the lacking update path for WP8. Hopefully this quarter will start to show some promising figures, as Nokia will be focusing solely on Lumia & WP8. In their Press Release, Nokia mention that “approximately 2.9 million” of the 6.3 million “smart devices” were Lumia. Thus, approximately 3.1 million was Symbian and MeeGo (note; both have one main device available compared to 4).
Feature phones were up 8% in comparison to last year’s Q3 results.
NSN profited, while Navteq also suffered losses.
Take a look at Nokia’s press release, as well as the full PDF for more in depth information.
Edit (Ali): Interestingly enough though Nokia’s stock has been on the rise for the days leading up to the announcement:
Closing at just under $3 a share yesterday, however the market itself is yet to open (9:30 AM ET I think)- so we’ll wait and see what the general investors look at the results is; although most people are reporting that the results have “exceeded expectations“. Also keep in mind that this is the first Quarterly result in a year that is below 1 Billion dollars in loss.
Source: Nokia
Category: Asha, Lumia, Maemo, Nokia, Press Release, Symbian, Windows Phone
About the Author (Author Profile)
Hi! My name is Michael. Like the others, I'm also a Student, living here in Sydney. I have a real passion for the latest technology and I'm a real Nokia buff! My aim is to keep those of you, like myself, updated with the latest in what's going on in the Nokia World. Currently sporting N9 & Lumia 820, with other Nokia devices in my posession. Get in touch on Twitter via @MFaroTusino, Google Plus or even simply drop me an email at mike.mnb[at]outlook.com or tips[at]mynokiablog.comSubscribe
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It would be interesting to know which Asha handset is the best seller. Any information on that?
[Spam removed. Pro Nokia, antiNokia, indifferent. Spam is removed]
Make yourself rich and not Apple, Time to buy Nokia stock and why:
And here are the reasons why bankruptcy is hardly true:
1. Nokia does not only make phones.
2. Nokia´s feature-phone division is still profitable.
3. Nokia Lumia 920 scores the best points among most of the tech sites today when comparing high end smart phones.
(Lumia 920 beats iPhone 5 and Galaxy S III with these features:
Floating-lens PureView camera with optical image stabilization
Wireless charging
Super sensitive and bright screen that can be used with gloves or finger nails
Premium GPS that can be used offline
Augmented reality City Lens
Free music with no advertisements
Lumia 920 also beats iPhone 5 with NFC)
The Verge and Engadget have proven the power and quality of the camera accurate as Nokia claimed (by comparing the Lumia 920´s camera side by side with other high end smart phones, such as iPhone 5 and Galaxy S III).
4. Lumia 920 and 820 hit in time the holiday shopping season this year.
5. NSN is growing strongly.
6. Nokia´s WP 8 devices will hit more markets, for example the middle East countries (Lumia phones have not been in these countries yet till now).
7. NAVTEQ is doing well and even better in the future
8. Nokia still has 3,6 billion euros net cash
9. Nokia has regular incomes from its patent portfolio (right now, this income is around 500 million euros per year, and it is still increasing).
10. Nokia has cut expenses (which saves about 1 billion euros per year).
11. In the future, Nokia does not have to spend so much in R&D, because it has teamed up with Microsoft.
12. If Nokia really runs out of cash, Microsoft will likely lend Nokia
cash for reasonable rates, because Nokia is the most important partner for Microsoft for its Window Phone ecosystem and phone software business in general. Microsoft won´t let Nokia go bankrupt, cause it would be a huge damage for itself as well.
13. Apart from Vertu and so on, Nokia still can sell its patents, since it still has about 30 000 patents in its own hands (in case Nokia needs more cash).
14. If the stock price still goes cheaper and cheaper, one day some rival would bid for Nokia, just for its patents ( Motorola was acquired by Google with 12 billion dollars, this is good to remind people who underestimate intellectual properties´ value).
15. Microsoft will bid for Nokia with higher premium if some company really bids for Nokia, because Nokia is in so close partnership with Microsoft that this also includes business strategies, business secrets and so on. Therefore, Microsoft won´t let any company acquire Nokia than itself. When it comes to Microsoft, it is still the net cash king in the world, after all its debts excluded, it still has a huge net cash about 50 billion dollars.
16. Right now, there is no way to compare Nokia to Apple among most smart phone consumers, but there is hope in the future.
For example, Nokia just signed the contract with China Mobile (who has about 680 million subscribers, which is about 70% of all subscribers in this world´s biggest nation), and even though iPhone is very popular in the US and Europe, Windows Phone OS already surpasses iOS in the world´s biggest countries beside China, such as Brasil, India and Russia. Even though in these countries more low price point phones are sold, but these are the most important emerging giants in the world where Nokia´s position and brand are still quite strong. And it may be sooner than we think when more people in these countries are able to afford high end smart phones.
17. Nokia has not lost about 1 billion dollars a quarter as the media says, because its other parts of business are profitable (while 1Q´s and 2Q´s total loss 290 million each, 3Q´s total loss only 17 million euros any more). Therefore, 3.6 billion euros net cash should be enough for Nokia´s transition period before WP8 phones take off. There is still enough room for a third ecosystem in this world, beside emerging markets Europe has adopted WP phones in a very encouraging way (for example Italy has already over 10% market share for WP phones, considering the Lumia debut has not been a year yet, since last November only. WP OS has already grown a lot faster compared to iOS and Android in their first quarters).
18. If Microsoft really “betrays” Nokia and competes in hardware with Nokia. Nokia will take a plan B as well, for example Nokia will likely make both WP phones and Android phones at the same time.
Nokia´s board and Nokia´s biggest shareholders won´t let the company die without this last fight (if needed).
The conclusion is Nokia is for long-term and medium-term play not for short term. Just think about this, even when Apple and Google reach 1000 dollars, that is not even doubling, but in long term Nokia has the opportunity to triple or even more.
I know US is very important market, because Wall Street and US consumer trend give directions to market momentum around the world, still you can not neglect the power of BRIC and MIST these days.
You can calculate yourself how many people living in these 8 BRIC- and MIST-countries. In these countries, in Brazil, Russia, India, China, Mexico, Indonesia and Turkey, Nokia´s position and brand are still quite strong (except South-Korea, but you know it is Samsung´s home-country and the smallest country among those important 8 anyway). caleb23
Nokia stock is listed in Helsinki and New York. You can ask your own bank, if you want to buy.
Time to buy NOK and why:
Signs of NOK´s stock price recovery:
NOK stock had already moved back and forth many times between 2 and 3 dollars even before this better-than-expected 3Q announced; Because the stock have been already shorted heavily, bears could not go any much further.
Huge volumes of shares exchanged during days of dips, meaning there are happy big buyers out there, for example Swiss National Bank announced it has become Nokia´s 5th biggest shareholder.
NOK´s average target price will rise soon, because after 3Q results, Societe Generale, SEB, Kepler, Carnergie, Credit Suisse, BZ, RBC, Canaccord, Scotiabank, Baird, Northlands Securities, Wedbush Securities and so on have raised Nokia´s target price. Also Nordea has rated NOK from “buy” to “strong buy”, Carnegie from “hold” to “buy” and so on.
There were still a couple of bears even lowered NOK´s target price after better-than-expected 3Q, for example Exane. Bernstein remains Underperform rating and 1.56 dollar target. On the other hand, as you know, these might have been the biggest NOK bears out there.
Important reasons:
1. Now when the DOWS and S&P have almost hit all time highs, investors start to think more about cheap and potential value stocks. NOK is now only about 0,8x book value, and usually NYSE stocks are on an average about 2x book value (Apple 7x book value). Therefore, I think NOK is cheap enough for its values. Another reason is NOK has been already shorted massively about 16% of its total shares.
2. Nokia has not lost about 1 billion dollars a quarter like the media says, because Nokia has 5 business parts and 4 of them are profitable. Therefore, the exact number is much much smaller.
3. Nokia´s loss is only 17 million euros any more (compared to Reuters´s consensus 277 million and Nokia´s last two previous quarters about 290 million each), this was much better.
4. Nokia Siemens Networks is doing very strongly (over 300 million euros profit in 3Q. More business to come in the future: 3G in developing countries, 4G in developed and emerging countries)
5. NAVTEQ was also profitable, but NAVTEQ´s number will be better in 4Q, because of the deals with Amazon, Yahoo, Oracle and many car-companies.
6. Nokia´s feature-phone division is doing well, because of Asha phones.
7. Nokia´s patent portfolio earns about 500 million euros a year, and the number is still increasing.
8. Nokia has cut expenses (which saves about 1 billion euros a year) and in the future Nokia does not have to spend so much in R&D either, because it has teamed up with Microsoft.
Here are Nokia´s 3Q numbers:
Eps: -0,07 euro (better than consensus -0,11 euro)
Total loss: only 17 million euros (much better than consensus 277 million euros, and last quarter loss 290 million euros)
Net cash: 3,6 billion euros (reconstructings such as closing factory in Romania and building new plant in Vietnam and so on, also because this net cash number was at the end of September, therefore some deal-payments not included).
The net cash is also better than consensus which was 3,36 billion euros (average of 35 analysts at Reuters).
Important to note: in 3Q, NSN made 323 million euros profit.
Also NAVTEQ was profitable, but NAVTEQ´s number will be better in 4Q because of the new deals like Oracle and many car-companies.
Guidance from CEO Stephen Elop: trying to turn Devices & Services division profitable soon, and next year will be the year for good fight against rivals.
Good news for 4Q:
China Mobile confirmed Lumia 920T, may arrive in November.
Product-launch invitations in Russia for November 6 (Lumia 920, Lumia 820).
AT&T Lumia 920´s exclusivity only 6 months (possibly available on other US carriers 2Q 2013).
Lumia 920 sold out in preorders in Italy.
Lumia 920 tops iPhone 5 in Phonehouse France.
Lumia 920 tops charts at Expansys UK and Expansys France.
Lumia 920 black available November 5 in UK.
Lumia 920 available November 15 in Germany.
Lumia 920 is already on preorders also in many other countries (Canada, Australia, Norway etc. meaning it will surely make for the holiday shopping season this year).
Lumia 800s and Lumia 900s are making the ecosystem growing fast, because the offer-campaigns just started and they are selling well. And to improve net cash, Nokia´s HQ might be cashed in the near future (Nokia will continue dispose of non-core assets).
Statement about the bond:
Mobile phone company Nokia will issue 750 million euros in convertible bonds. International investors to provide the loan matures in 2017.
- This issue is designed to improve the financial and liquidity position and at the same time take advantage of the current long-term good funding opportunities that the convertible bond market offers, Nokia’s Economic and Financial Officer Timo Ihamuotila said the stock exchange release.
Senior unsecured convertible bonds are offered to institutional investors in an accelerated book building process. The loan can be converted to shares of Nokia.
It means Nokia is gettin more net cash with cheap interest rates for 5 years (only about 5 %). This is actullay good news.
Wait for Windows Phone 9!
- Windows Phone Fanboys
Yeah, maybe THAT one will deliver!
LOL
Yea, LOL
yes but Windows Phone 9 cannot be upgraded to Windows phone 10, better wait for Windows Phone 10.
Yes, Windows phone 999 is coming. Don’t ever buy a phone for your life.
We now know The Real Burning Platform, today
+1
+1
+ 1
+1
+1
+100000
+ Over 9000 Dragon Ball Z power level
+1
well, Reuters put Flop entreview, that says MS maibe launch Surface phones and this will be good? Nokia is crazy??
Of course it would be good. Why would it be bad?
Dunno, but when Google bought Motorola, people seemed to think other manufacturers would be angered that Android maker will also have own phones. They, including Nokia and MS, were thinking it will help WP attracting these manufacturers.
But perhaps Elop is just positive man by nature, and for him no news can ever be bad news.
Ask Samsung and Sony-Ericsson why did they bitch about, and eventually left the Symbian world one by one as Nokia’s hold over the all-things-Symbian was getting stronger and stronger. Simply because he who controls the Spice, controls the Universe.
If Microsoft wants to add something to WP they don’t have to ask, or even tell anybody about it, they can just sit down and write it, even if it’s a bad thing or goes directly against the interests of other sharks in that small pond. All the others have to beg Microsoft (potentially revealing their inner strategies as well) to get something into WP, and Microsoft can just say no if it’s not in their interest. That makes all the OEMs less competitive by definition, as their competition is the sole company their faith relies on (well, at least for Nokia, others were not so stupid to put all their eggs in one basket).
Dune Spice, melange
And a private skinny dipping session with Chani…
Symbian i a platform with alot of potential, if elop did not switch to wp ad put all the money into symbian, i am sure nokia will suceed now.
symbian is crap. MeeGo is the best.
“Ask Samsung and Sony-Ericsson why did they bitch about, and eventually left the Symbian world one by one as Nokia’s hold over the all-things-Symbian was getting stronger and stronger.”
I’ll come back to this when Microsoft sells ~90% of all WP8 devices on the market.
Funny how some people forget what has been said in the recvent past.
For example Elop on Google buying Motorola. . . “If I happened to be someone who was an Android manufacturer or an operator, or anyone with a stake in that environment,” Nokia CEO Stephen Elop (a former Microsoft executive) told a crowd in Helsinki, according to Reuters Aug. 17, “I would be picking up my phone and calling certain executives at Google and say, -I see signs of danger ahead.’”
Well I wonder if Elop was on the phone to Microsoft when the stories started about the Surface Phone. I imagine from recent comments from Elop that he got the answer from Balmer “yes we are making a phone . . SO WHAT?”.
Good point, Elop the hypocrite
It’s called selective memory. Some here have used selective memory to support MS.
Apples != Oranges.
Nokia is getting the fruit of their did. Excessive ignorance to symbian, too much priority to wp has brought them to this position. They would have a smart device sales figure of 15+ millions with the help of Symbian. Yes, symbian had that capacity.
In order to kill Nokia, it was necessary to kill it’s primary OS and the mission accomplished.
Now Symbian is DEAD. Nokia will follow soon.
Though S60v5 was bad, the sales figure never saw a decline. It’s because Nokia had a pool of loyal customer. Last 1 and 1/2 years result clearly indicates how disappointed the users are. Nokia had already lost the faith of loyal customers.
May be 920 or 820 are innovative but I don’t see they have a chance in front of HTC J butterfly or Samsung Note2 or other quad core 1080p beasts.
This is the dead end for Nokia. They are no more capable of producing devices which can steal the show.
My poor 808 was the last Nokia that created a buzz and I will use it until I find a more capable device irrespective or their OS. Hope Nokia will continue to produce mobile phones.
Oh please. Does that look like a winning bet to you: http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-eu-quarterly-200804-201203
I played with the graphs, Worldwide Symbian at least count by itself (according to that stat site, into the same period), but Windows Phone is packet (I suspect) onto the others pack, so no a champion, but introducing better Symbian devices with better WP devices slowly could probably be a better idea, that just pushing into you WP.
This show how easy is to adjust the reality according to my needs…
Worldwide Symbian sales kept going a bit longer for one reason: it was the only smartphone people in developing countries could afford. Those sales started falling the same instant that Android started making inroads on the sub $100 market.
Also, if you look at the global graphs, you can see that Symbian increased its position going from Q1/11 to Q2/11. How’s that for an “Elop effect”?
no…if nokia kept upgrading symbian it could act better than windows phone…..windows phone is terrible….ssymbian is the only os which can stand against android and ios it just need some software backup and ui improvements….cmon fp2 is cool…..
people in developing countries want bt transfer,sd card slot and so on but wp does not offer so symbian is better
Living in a developing country I have to agree with this
But time is changing and Nokia need to move forward. You can’t make changes overnight so I don’t think it’s a bad choice Nokia choose WP.
Personally I think the only mistake Nokia/Elop made is announce the EOL of Symbian. I don’t think they should “kill” it, instead, let it die naturally as in losing sales because consumers don’t want it anymore.
I understand Zipa. When WP sales are “bad” things can be improved, pushed and promotied. But when Symbian sales slow down it’s the end, Symbian cannot be improved, pushed and promoted.
The problem with Symbian touch at Nokia was inherently a bad product, though. Nokia tried to improve but their internally convoluted development couldn’t fix it. Nokia failed to modernize their button based S60 to touch. It was and still is a mess.
Windows Phone is a good product. There is reason to hopeful from that perspective. Of course not always will that be enough (like Mark concluded), but that is a major differentiator to the Symbian situation.
As someone who went through the launch day N97 and N8 and E7… I know how bad Symbian touch from Nokia is. And even my 808 is still ridiculous at times.
Lumia experience is far superior to those already since the first Lumia.
MeeGo could have worked too, it too had the makings of a good product. Unlike Symbian touch.
You are fan of WP, you like and that is good. The problem is that your personal preferences are blinding you from seeing the simple fact that you are just part of very very small minority.
The reality is that after all the Symbian killing Elop unleashed and all the billions wasted over those two years on pushing the WP, Nokia is still (probably) selling more Symbian phones than Lumias. Over the year Nokia sold less than 10M WP7 phones.
This is utter disaster and total rejection of WP, the market and consumers are loudly shouting that WP isn’t good productby by any stretch of the imagination and that yes, Symbian to this day is still better than WP.
But some people don’t like the grim reality and are instead choosing to ignore it, again and again hoping for miracle happening just around the next quarter.
No, your blindness for both me and Symbian are blinding you on two things:
Just because I think Lumia is a good product, does not mean I agree how it came to be or everything Nokia did to get here. You can see that if you really read me, no point in repeating it here. I am my own thinker. And Elop is clearly failing a bit too much here.
Second, you are blind to how bad Symbian’s situation was. It was bad and the internal turf-wars were killing Nokia’s chances at changing that. Nokia needed a better product and no matter how well WP will eventually do or not, it is a better product for the modern touch smartphone market.
MeeGo could have worked too. Maybe even Android. But the difference between all those and Symbian is the difference between a good and a bad product.
Elop would never have come on-board had OPK fixed the turf-wars and really worked to remove Symbian. Instead the ill-advised non-Qt based Symbian^4 and MeeGo was relegated to high end only… Delays after delays, lack of direction and lack of quality. Dumb and dumber, it seems.
The fact that Symbian was/is better than WP, and again it’s indisputable fact, people are voting with their wallets, doesn’t mean Symbian is some miracle and world wonder. It rather means that WP is really bad product.
In reality Symbian was on the way out and to be gradually replaced by MeeGo even before Elop, I wholeheartedly agreed with that strategy. Nobody denies that in long term Symbian was unable to compete with top Apple and Android phones. But WP is far worse in that regard.
The problems you are describing are results of bad management, which of course you don’t solve by changing the underlying technical things. And frankly, I’m quite sure that when similar stories about Elop’s reign will begin to appear, they will picture far bigger chaos and incompetence than in the old days. It’s obvious from the results they are delivering.
WP may be a good product, but it is not a relevant product. There already is a closed platform/ecosystem (Apple) and they have excellent innovation, marketing, and of course a huge lead. Microsoft can’t compete and their blind faith in their infamous brands “Windows” “Outlook” “Internet Explorer” just shows that they simply don’t get it at all.
Symbian is still relevant today because it is the only open platform that supports mindblowing hardware (such as PureView, RichRecording), because it can run well on low hardware and because it is not politicized. Apart from that Symbian is of course increasingly made irrelevant by Android, which is sad because Android is just a tasteless copy of Symbian.
From a strategy point of view, I always thought it was better for Nokia to fight for a piece of a large familiar fragmented/chaotic market where they had a good reputation, rather than fighting for a piece a small unfamiliar concentrated market controlled by the most successful company ever. The technical benefits and their knowledge and control of Symbian would have always enabled them to stay relevant.
+10000
WP7 was a bad product to bet the farmhouse on. Even MS moved on to WP8.
Exactly. Symbian was/is such a convoluted mess that there simply is no way of improving it, except throwing pretty much all of the codebase away and rebuilding it from scratch.
Seriously, unless you have been doing low-level Symbian coding, don’t argue with me.
And if you have and still want to argue, please check your medication…
Yes that is why Nokia was moving towards a Linux based OS.
But dude Symbian was dumped for WinCE not WinNT. So if you state that symbian is not as powerful or better then WinCE then you need to improve your understanding of OS’s.
Sure symbian did not have the best development tools but saying Symbian is not as good as WinCE is not exactly sounding legit.
MS took 2 years transitioning from WinCE to WinNT. And 2 years is a long time so maybe some of the mess inside Symbian could have improved or we would be getting a great Linux mobile OS anyways.
*cough* N97 *cough* loyal customers *cough*
not only n97, the entire bunch of s60v5 devices were crap. But my point is even then also there was no sharp decline in sales figure.
5800 was the best s60 5th phone after the update from 396hmz – 434 i think they can do it as well on the first gen symbian phones as well
and what is wp excuse??? because it still is outsold by the ” s60v5 devices crap”
swain: Yes, but S60v5 sold on Nokia’s past reputation and RUINED it. After that debacle not even Symbian^3 sold that well. And by Lumia, Nokia was already though of as crap by many.
You have no idea how much damage things like N97 did to the Nokia brand long term, even though they sold at the time… The next round that customer went to Samsung.
Janne: I am well aware of the issues with S60v5 and I agree that it damaged Nokia’s reputation.
Leave alone the resistive N97, sometimes I felt like killing myself out of frustration while using X6. Yes it was that bad. Save the camera.
Then, Symbian should have been abandoned on or before 2009 when it caused the highest damage. Symbian ^3 was never supposed to be born. But the disappointment is they are abandoning Belle “the most advanced and capable version of symbian”. If you don’t count the apps in app stores, honestly I feel that Belle fp2 has the capability to stand in front of iOS or Android. App developer will return if Nokia announces a revival of Symbian.
WP strategy is taking the beautiful organization towards a dark future but I will be happy to be proved wrong.
I hope you are too, Nokia and WP is a great combination. And deserves success.
But WP as the only platform, it doesn’t really satisfy wholeheartedly…
Even after I pick up the Lumia 920, my N9 is still likely to be sitting right next to it.
Something about MeeGo.
Thank you.
I too hope they may succeed.
But too much reliance on one OS may cause some irreversible damage. Look at Samsung. Though they are extremely successful with Android, still making Bada and WP phones. Even, they are developing another smartphone OS.
WP is burning platform. Elop, jump!
no shit it;s about time people wake up specially the foolish nokia users that thought microsoft was actually gonna help nokia…in the first place ….NOW DO YOU SEE THE TROJAN HOW MUCH DAMAGE HE’s DONE to ouR COMPANY WE THE USERS LOVE/LOVED now nokia is a laughing joke for the past 3 years
msft never helped Nokia. msft NEEDED Nokia to survive the wp7 to wp8 fiasco.
Trojan or not, elop has successfully brought Nokia smartphones to it’s knees..
Fire the village idiot elop (msft trojan or not). When wp8 fails, find a way to support Symbian and transition to Meego. Hire the best of the staff elop fired if you have to. Or else it’s android… yucks..
NOKIA NEEDs SYMBIAN TO SURVIVE AND THIS PROVES IT…..THEY NEED THAT NOKIA AIR concept with the SILK SMOOTH transitions and modern hardware
or nokia needs to use jolla…and i think it will happen since nokia has nothing left except the asha line which is just as dead as bada
Wooow u r fcking crazy.
Have you read the report?
Asha Smart phones <full touch) alone sold 7 million and the rest of mobile phones sold 70 million units. That makes Nokia either no. 1 or 2. in the world of mobile.
Its hard to tell since the other guy (Samedung) doesn`t give their figures…
But nevertheless Nokia made the first operating profit in Q3 since Q2/2011 so it is gooood.
“NOKIA NEEDs SYMBIAN TO SURVIVE AND THIS PROVES IT…..THEY NEED THAT NOKIA AIR concept with the SILK SMOOTH transitions and modern hardware”
Sorry bro, but “Symbian” and “silky smooth” ain’t never gonna happen. That’s just the way it is. You can’t build an instantly responsive UI on asynchronous message passing that is processed by a service which is processed by another service and which eventually might actually trickle down to kernel level to actually be passed on (asynchronously) to another service that processes it.
Yup, ain’t gonna be no PureMotion no matter what…
smartphone sales down from last quarter to 6.3million and plummeted when compared to this time last year
featurephones up from last quarter but still down from this time last year
who cares about nokias non-ifrs numbers the world doesn’t play by non-ifrs anymore
Actually, smart phone sales are up because Asha touch are new smartphones. 12+ million now.
Asha touch are new smartphones. 12+ million now. I say dump WP for S40 then….OO right it can’t because S40 is a dead end, If only nokia had meltemi still around.
What’s interesting is that Symbian smartphone sales still outsold Lumia phones by 400,000+ units
And all we’ve seen this year in terms of new symbian phones is the 808 pureview
yet Nokias press release refrains from mentioning that fact all they note is declining Lumia sales and increasing Asha
What a joke
Indeed, and the 808 wasn’t even pushed for sales. In fact it was probably the worse promoted phone ever. Nokia australia still won’t mention it.
In deed I love my 808 but it can be safely said that it doesn`t work as well as my L800… If you don`t address this kind of issues you are out of business, if you do you have a chance to be better.
I am WP8 FTW!
yes but the market has pretty much spoken thus far and signs arent good for Lumia
they switched too early imo
After Windows 8 (PC/Tablet) sinks in Lumia might take off but it seems like an impossibly grueling fight
What’s a jokes ….. couldbe the Funniest Joke in the world. descendant of fallen angel now really fallen epic *-*”.
Oh my …. isn’t a joke, like father like son loser Nimrod blood Samy and Magyar will become mighty loooser like thier father.
It was not a very smart move to kill Meego, i thought they wouldnt be so stupid to kill it even if it was a success, as Mr. elop said. “It will be the last Meego even if Nokia n9 turns out to be a success”. Shot on your foot man. However Lumia 920 will do muche better than Lumia 800/900
my advice for nokia
1.change tile and metro to n9-like swipe ui/ux
2.put pureview 1+2 on next lumia
1. Cannot … not allowed by MS
2. Cannot yet …. WP8 is still in it’s infancy, maybe an year later.
why not ? Nokia is supposedly allowed to do what they want
Since when msft let oem do what they want?
That is the whole problem with this wp crap. Nokia is just another msft bitch.
Nokia is just another MSFT bitch…
Also means:
MSFT can fu*^k Nokia anytime.
Change like this will take time to show the actual path to success or failure. Based on what I have just seen, this is not enough to condemn WP to failure yet.
Too hasty the majority of opinions are here! Me thinks.
Yes we understand. WP can be push, promoted and improved for ever. While Symbian cannot be push, cannot be promoted and cannot be improved. Now do you see where “hasty opinions” are?
Are you the voice?
Nokia tried to improve Symbian for FOUR years after the iPhone. They failed.
It has been less than two years trying with Lumia.
They finally succeeded to improve Symbian. With Symbian^3 the kernel was massivly improved. The new Belle UI and dual core support (Cortex A9) was just around the corner -Rich Green did mention it at MWC 2011. Ovi Store and the development tools (Qt/Nokia SDK) were polished.
So when the WP decision was made, Nokia finally had Symbian ready- and it was all tossed into the trash can…
The damage was already done. Loyal fans stuck with Symbian but so many people moved on (incl. myself but really only to MeeGo).
I guess they really just felt the need for a fresh start with something new, to change that perception, like the phoenix reborn…
true. So Q1 then. (whatever)
No no, Q4/2012 results guys… That will tell enough.
Sadly it will…
nokia can’t sell wp8 handset with high profit margin, because wp8 OS is shared with cheap chinese brand handset, & WP8 in nokia devices will be the same with WP8 in huawei devices (just as windows in hp laptop is the same with in toshiba laptop). microsoft controls the OS. sensitive display, image stabilization, wireless charging are cosmetics, not essential features.
the story is different in android, samsung’s UI (touchwiz) is different with sony’s (timescape) & htc’s (sense). and now, sony & lg is better, able to challenge samsung. in 2011, all android phones in my workplace were samsung, but in 2012, I see some sony & lg. chance to differentiate is much better in android, even amazon kindle fire uses android without google services.
yeah, there are many ways to become profitable (the 1st goal of a company), not just smartphone. nokia could shut down its smartphone business, & become healthy company by selling feature phone, maps, & network infrastructure.
i still remember in 2008-s, that time, smartphone was BB, nokia E71 was not considered as smartphone, but it was very successful, nokia got lots of money from it.
Well done Mr Elop.
Nokia and you deserve each other.
nokia should sell nokia maps app at google play, i’ll definitely buy it for my xperia u, it is easier revenue than selling wp handset
Great Idea!
i would buy that, i use my GS2 daily and my N8 when i travel and need offline maps.
ALL things considered and taking into account ALL of nokia’s operational segments, then the OVERALL news is positive for nokia.
nokia is in good health as a company and has reported better results than many analysts expectations.
i challenge any of the hatters, who have ignorantly revelled in just the lumia sales results, to come back and say the same things about lumia AFTER the transition has been completed.
a huge $1+ billion promotional onslaught is about to be unleashed on consumers, \and it wouldn’t be a surprise to see the currant lumia range greatly increase in sales alongside the new lumia range.
come back and talk to me in december.
Most of the people here would probably have moved up to Jolla by Dec.
No one knows the future, but based on the last 2 years, methinks you might be backing a dead horse. This time not killed by the manufacturer, just by virtue of wp being unwanted by consumers.
try saying
“just by virtue of wp being unwanted by consumers.”
in december.
for the love of God what does wp8 offer that wp7 did not?
you all sid it did not needed better hardware it was already amazing and what not.
Really? Why?
Yeah it’s funny,
From a personal perspective, I only require WP8 to be as usable as the previous version 7.
And with tried and true Nokia quality apps and feature set present in the new Lumia’s (920 especially) I’m well satisfied!
WP8 on it’s own and I’m ambivalent, combine it with Nokia and that’s a different story…
Crazy hatters
“many analysts expectations” were that Nokia is dead or bought by MS. It is not dead yet doeasn’t mean it is in good health.
“AFTER the transition has been completed” – Nokia is over. WP8 sucks the same way WP7 sucked.
Ah so u have already used wp8.
yup, it sucks. I have seen it and its STILL not:
open source and made in europe.
Therefore it automatically sucks!
ah ok, so you are just biased to anything non-european.
at least you are honest.
le sigh.
edit:
/s
European quality, especially by Finnish Nokia is just far far better. You should read the proper context. And properly.
It’s no surprise the results of current Lumia handsets…. I wonder why anyone would have thought it to be any different?
Any new platform push is going to take time. There are more complicated factors involved than simply release and success, especially for Nokia.
They know what they have with the new Lumia range and can potentially do very well from it.
yes true, all the pieces fall into place this holiday season.
the Q3 results might very well be the last chance the hatters have to spit their venom.
Results will always be results.What is nokia plans to stay in business, we hope it will do good to the company. Hopefully meego support will be continued.
sandars, nokia fired and sold every single item it had in relation to Meego, Qt, Meltemi, etc etc there is nothing left nokia cant even realy expand on the S40.
Elop is managed to put Nokia in this situation.
Without elop where would Nokia be now with its ecosystem up against android and iOS ?
Definitely not as low as it right now, that’s for sure.
Just by releasing more Symbian devices with Belle AND backtracking on the stupid as hell ‘burning platform’ memo. Please note that even killed by elop, Symbian still outsold wp crap.
so nokia should have given up on smart-phones able to compete with the iphone and top range androids ?
nokia should just sell feature phones only?
maybe its better to sell feature phones AND join an ecosystem able to take on ios and android.
Have u ever tried to compare a 808 with a SIMILARLY SPECCED android. Trust me, you will say that Nokia did a mistake by abandoning such a wonderful OS. S60v5 was crap but it doesn’t mean all other iterations are crap. Nokia sales people came to my office few days ago to promote the Lumias. Lumias are not that good actually.
the plan is to make products better than “similarly specced” androids.
the 808 can’t match ios or top range androids,
tech blog after tech blog have praised the 808 pv tech but complained about the os.
” 808 can’t match ios or top range androids”
Put better processors with dual core , even better yet put quad core in symbian phones and let them compete with Androids and iOSs.
In case you haven’t noticed, Symbian has improved a lot. As for competing with IOS and Android, Nokia gave that up with Harmattan.
And what smartphone function is it that Symbian lacks exactly?
well why don’t you ask the numerous tech blogs that complained about symbian while praising pv.
Symbian led the way up till being killed.
And as far as the pv is concerned, ever wonder why even on wp8, the camera is not the best it could be, unlike on 808? wp can’t cut it.
Pureview tech would have worked just as well on Meego.
Ever wonder why the tech blogs praised N9 when it came out and almost universally thought elop was an idiot?
Applying a similar logic seen above;
guess what, do you know why the Lumia 920 exist? its because symbian and meego could not have handled the OIS system properly. Yup, thats right! symbian and meego is completely incapable of handling the OIS system which required real time monitoring of the lens assembly ( explained in depth with the nokia white paper)
and the proof that meego and symbian cannot support said advance system? the fact that THERE IS NO MEEGO device, or SYMBIAN device out there that have OIS stabilization.
Meego and symbian just wont cut it.
LOL um no
LOL UM YES.
“Yup, thats right! symbian and meego is completely incapable of handling the OIS system which required real time monitoring of the lens assembly ( explained in depth with the nokia white paper)”
This is completely wrong, refer to one of incognito’s earlier posts on the matter when the paper 1st came out, goes right into depth about all their architectures.
“and the proof that meego and symbian cannot support said advance system? the fact that THERE IS NO MEEGO device, or SYMBIAN device out there that have OIS stabilization. ”
Yeah that’s a resounding technical argument, there isn’t a device so it cant have been able to support it, riiight.
I dont mind a little more knowledge, mind linking me to what he said?
at any rate, i was being sarcastic.
I agree. Symbian doesn’t have too much hardware requirements. So it’s very much possible to built belle fp2 devices with lower price point. That will definitely put Nokia in comfortable position.
Yeah…it’s surprising. After all the attempts to reduce/stop Symbian sales, after virtually killing it, after 20 months of torture, Symbian still proved better than WP. This is the potential of Symbian that Elop can never understand.
And not only that, its ASP have risen 17% while Lumia ASP has dropped 14% down to just 9€ more than the Symbian lineage, and considering that Lumia devices are more expensive to make and Symbian devices sold considerably more than the Lumia line, this paints a dreadful picture for the Lumia. Or at least debunks the myth that Symbian sells just because it’s far more cheaper and that people are just buying the cheapo 5210 and the likes (which are not even manufactured for quite some time now) not knowing that they are even getting a smartphone.
Mind you, I wouldn’t go back to Symbian except at a gun-point (the gun being the sole choice between WP or cheapo Android and Symbian), but one has to give credit where credit is due – I mean, if you account all the badmouthing Symbian has gotten over the years, including from their own company declaring it essentially dead and buried, it fares somewhat good. For it, in such state and with such odds against it, being able to still outsell Lumias which got all the love and unprecedented marketing campaigns and billions backing them up – says quite a lot of how big of a failure the whole Lumia endeavor was.
Exactly. Great batt life. Good functionality. It would have been much more profitable for Nokia if the village idiot elop put a stop to the Nokia infighting and guided a more streamlined approach to the Qt transition that go wp.
But in elop’s head, wp is better because it’s msft.
Silly
@tired
you make me tired.
+1
Thanks. Appreciate the compliment.
Some rumors and articles flying around the web.
http://www.eutimes.net/2012/09/stephen-elop-to-be-fired-by-early-2013-nokia-to-switch-on-android/
http://nokiagadgets.com/2012/08/23/members-of-finnish-association-of-stock-investors-demand-elop-to-be-fired/
Not good times for Elop. Maybe time for some karma!!
i think its for the best. Fire him and replace it with a NEW strategy.
As long as its not WP right? that would be fun to watch
I guess Elop succeed in burning all bridges to the platform. Many stupid executives share and feel your viewpoint.
But multiple OSs strategy is, was and will be the best strategy to move forward.
like LG, HTC, SONY right? super sucessful.
me, i dont touch that Sh!t yo!
LG, HTC, SONY?
What’s stopping Nokia from ending in the same position if WP8 succeeds?
And yes not all Windows OEM’s are minting money. Like Dell, HP, LG, Sony right? super sucessful.
And don’t lie about Android not allowing differentiation. Look at Samsung with their own app Store. Look at Amazon with their own Android version.
“What’s stopping Nokia from ending in the same position if WP8 succeeds?
“Absolutely nothing.”
Just like “absolutely nothing” stopped LG, HTC, SONY from being “super successful” with a multi-pronged OS approach.
you wanna claim a multi OS approach as being better BECAUSE a single OS approach failed? FAIL. One being terrible does not automatically make the other one BETTER.
“And don’t lie about Android not allowing differentiation. Look at Samsung with their own app Store. Look at Amazon with their own Android version.”
you are barking up the wrong tree with this one. o.0
and Dell, HP, LG, SONY? erm. wtf?
“Dell, HP, LG, Sony? are not profiting from being OEM’s of Windows7 OS.
Try as much to twist comments but the truth is Nokia will and could have differentiated with Android and Meego.
Betting the farmhouse on WP7 was a very wrong move, even MS ditch WP7 for WP8. Technically WP8 is much better. But betting on multiple OS would be the best move.
People would love Meego and Android with Pureview. But Elop will not give let it happen cause it’s now about pushing MS more then pushing Nokia.
I’m not twisting anything. If your basis on whya multi os would work is because you think a single os approach wont; then thats just immature.
All that other stuff? Plausable, but definitely not the truth. A possible scenario? Maybe. But claiming the truth again is highly immature.
And save any ad honiem attacks, I don’t give two shits about those.
Ah.. elopologist.. Got to love ‘em..
+1 thank god the jolla paid posters are here to point them out.
Look around you, Elop killed and strangled all Nokia products that competes with MS products. It’s the biggest fact staring at your face Mr.Arts.
Speaking of facts, hmmm, Microsoft is making its own phones now!
Then you should be HAPPY no?
microsoft is making their own phones now. Nokia would be stopping their productions of lumia;s anytime soon! HURRAY! which means, no more lumia devices!
I cant wait for this big piece of fact to happen! In fact, with your bold proclamation i am going to predict that on the launch of wp8, nokia is going to announce that its going back to making tyres! thats for your valuble insight yo
clap clap clap. Now take a chill pill dude, don’t worry cause whatever happens Mr. Elop will never allow Nokia to hurt MS future.
Your loveable WP8 should be getting more push from Elop and co.
Yup. I can’t wait for your vision and prophecy to come true. The huge fact eh? ROFLLLLLLLLL
Let me repeat the funny but true part
“Elop killed and strangled all Nokia products that competes with MS products”
Now enjoy and laught all you can and tell where it’s wrong.
Just like how because of Feb 11, Q1 results crashed right? ROFL
if it was in anyway true like you said thenlumia would be a goner no? Not because the market dislike it BUT because Ms don’t wants competition. LOLOLOLOLOL I’ll hold you to that.
I don’t want to sound repetitive here but
2 years since “Elop came in and all Nokia products competing against MS products have been strangled and killed.”
Still tell me where is this wrong. I am laughing on this side too.
as iam i sick of trying to hint to you what is wrong with your argument.
sure then lets laugh together! and lets see who has the last laugh
lets see when LUMIA gets shut down because MS is launching something.
I actually turned back a page to see you if you would come up with something decent.
So 2 years with Elop and all Nokia tech competing against MS products have been killed.
I wasn’t talking about the future.
A few more comments:
I agree with those who say Elop will be out if the results won’t improve by early 2013. This has been my opinion for quite a while and I have made it public here too. I don’t know if he would be out based on Q4 results alone (maybe?), but I do think early 2013 the pressure for management changes would be immense if the results don’t improve. If they do, he might still be out as a transitional CEO anyway. Personally, I’d prefer Risto Siilasmaa as the new one.
I don’t think, Lumia win or fail, they should make dramatic strategy changes. Clearly February 11th was too dramatic, making that mistake again would be stupid. They have now set up Lumia, Asha, NSN and location for their respective paths and I think mostly those should continue. It has been huge effort and expense, and some of that stuff is looking on the up too. After the Windows Phone 8 launch, it is also a fairly good time for management changes, because the transition would have been complete.
The big question mark is Lumia – will it catch on. I think Nokia can return to IFRS profitability in a couple of quarters even if it doesn’t catch on. They are already non-IFRS profitable, thanks to strong NSN and Asha. But like I’ve been saying for the better part of a year now, if Lumia doesn’t catch, not only a CEO change is warranted but also a strategy shift. It should be a far smaller shift than February 11th, though. I’m thinking along the lines of a third product-line along Asha and Lumia, perhaps based on Android or even Sailfish.
This, of course, assuming Nokia’s slimming and changes they have made will result in a profitable enterprise even with a mediocre Lumia. I actually think the chances of that are a far bit higher than the chances of Lumia makinga big break. Neither are impossible, of course, but I think the far least likely – and craziest – scenario is Nokia failing completely. I know some haters like to throw that idea around with reckless abandon because they don’t know how to read Nokia’s fiscal reports, but aside from a hostile takeover, I don’t see Nokia’s existence being threatened in any immediate manner.
Elop, he may be out sooner than we think.
Note: I actually think the improvements inside Nokia overall have been positive. A lot of the in-fighting and dead weight of the corporate behemoth Nokia had become has been cut. Asha, NSN, location, even IP, are probably in a lot better shape than they were in. NSN finally is profitable. Smartphones, too, have ended the internal turf-warfs. So I think these changes can result in a better overall Nokia the company.
The big concern, of course, is that even then smartphones are such a big part of the future that Nokia needs to succeed in that space as well. If Lumia isn’t the path to success (hopefully it still is), then that part of the strategy needs to be rethought. That would require a new CEO to be installed, obviously.
BTW, wasn’t it Elop who said when Google bouhjt Motorola that he would be picking the phone and calling the ceo if he were a Android manufacturer. I hope he already did that and called Balmer as MS is coming up with Surface phone. The hypocrite changed tune and said Surface phone is good now.
Yes, he said that. And I can see the irony, of course.
Obviously that was a bit of Jobsian move from Elop. Changing the tune to whatever sounds the best now for them, Jobs did a lot such reversals. Not that Microsoft making a phone is exactly the same as them buying a major phone manufacturer, but I can see why some laugh at the situation – the parallels are there enough. Elop brought that on himself unfortunately, why he had to comment on Motorola at all I have no idea.
Certainly Elop has made his fair share of mistakes. But he seems to have fixed some real issues at Nokia as well. We shall see what his final scorecard is once we get there.
I like how you bring up the standard PR spin used for CEOs that destroyed their companies, i.e. it’s cutting fat, making things lean and future oriented, etc. It’s like lauding generals who started global thermonuclear war for solving the problem of dog poops on the streets of Paris. And the highways are also lot less crowded!
I also don’t know where you got the idea that he somehow solved the internal management problems. He launched the strategy of turning the vision and ethos behind the company completely upside down, he destroyed the company, making it laughing stock of mobile arena, he is mass firing people etc. That quite inevitably brings low morale, disloyalty and chaos among the remaining workforce. We are still waiting for the inside stories behind current events, but the picture from the outside is just general chaos.
You should read the financial yourself. They are anticipating the continuation hundredths of millions of restructuring charges as they will go along, so you can forget about Nokia being profitable in few quarters even under the Elop’s rosy WP scenarios.
And because what he is doing is just cutting left and right, long term picture isn’t any better. For example it’s quite funny that for the location pillar, the revenues are actually shrinking, better overall numbers are result of cutting R&D and sales/marketing.
We seem to agree here.
Well thought out and well written comment.
But Janne I think it’s wiser to let the consumers choose their preferred OS. Last I heard, shoving WP onto people’s faces didn’t work the last time.
While I am more hopeful of the Windows Phone potential in the consumer base – and more understanding of a singular focus – than you are, I do agree that if WP doesn’t catch on, there will become a time to re-evaluate that. And I think WP8 must start showing real progress immediately.
Also, I was never against a multiple operating system route (although you know how I feel about Symbian). Personally, I would have at the very least continued a niche line of products for MeeGo enthusiasts. That would have been a nice plan B on the side as well as serving the open source Linux market, which is not insignificant.
Thank you. Appreciate it.
A slow and measured transition out of the wp environment would be best. Something drastically different compared to 11 Feb. Not fazing out so much, but concentrating on an OS Nokia’s customers want (the old one’s anyway.
Jolla would be a good bet, maybe 1 or 2 devices along side current lumia lineup. And a release of more Symbian models.
In a year or 2, faze out the non-performing OS.
Nokia was destined to lose market share with Symbian. Symbian was losing market share even when the Symbian3 was released. There was nothing to stop the decline of the market share.
Q1 2010, 40%
Q2 2010, 38%
Q3 2010, 33%
Q4 2010, 28%
Q1 2011, 24%
Q2 2011, 19%
Q3 2011, 14%
Q4 2011, 9%
Q1 2012, 4%
Q2 2012, 0%
Q3 2012, 0%
Nokia and Elop were actually very successful with the Symbian. They managed to slow down the collapse of the market share.
Symbian’s market share started to collapse in Q2 2010 and you can hardly blame Elop for that.
Symbian was destined to die.
I hope Nokia make 920 sailfish version. Hardware is great but I don’t like the OS. Probably they got some licence cooperation between Jolla.
+100
+100000000000000000000
I still don’t get what this discussion is about. Every next Q we can see worse and worse effects. And Every next time it happens we can hear how marvellous is the All-You-Know-Which-System and that next Q will be a paradise because of it.
In the meanwhile all other and dead OS oversell All-You-Know-Which-System.
It is not even frustrating this more like breaking personality with brainwashing.
Slowly Nokia is becoming like an cold fish. Indifferent, as products are not for users who are familiar with comfort of Symian or MeeGo.
As I remember S.Elop has promised transition 1:1 from Symbian to Windows. Symbian used to have 40%-70% of market share. So this ought to be adequate market share if this promise to be kept, and sole by Nokia products.
From statcount implies that Windows in all versions together and from all suppliers together is still around 1% or similar – so this is about transition 1:1.
This around 1% is constant from years, many years. Decade I think already.
Hardware has been changed as many times as MS partners has been changed. And still this is nothing better then before.
Partners were changed from several years, hardware, marketing is burning out cash and resources – changed many times. Any reflections? What was not changed and can be suspected a reason of problems?