Nokia N950 – Harmattan pre-Swipe UI on protoS1.12 HW0621

| January 13, 2013 | 139 Replies



I got included in a tweet convo where these pictures and videos were noted in the original thread. It’s the Nokia N950 prototype with pre-Swipe UI, just MeeGo-Harmattan I think. It’s what we were shown in the early days of MeeGo.







Category: Linux, MeeGo, Nokia

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Comments (139)

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  1. torcida says:


  2. shallow ocean shoal says:

    When the head of meego circa Dec 2010 said “the hardware is near perfect”

    Was he referring to this thing or the N9 hardware?

    • torcida says:

      N9 and N950 are almost the same… Only difference is the screen (3,9″ AMOLED vs 4″ LCD) and the keyboard on the N950.

      • shallow ocean shoal says:

        But I’m curious whether he was referring to the keyboard model or not, that he considered “perfect”

        That’s a pretty big difference

        • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:


          The development of N950 was cancelled in H1 2010 so he was probably referring to N9.

          • shallow ocean shoal says:

            Thanks that’s what I was wondering. I’m forgetting my chronology a bit. I was wondering how baked the N9 was by end of 2010 (when we were supposed to have our first release)

          • Saul says:

            No true at all, it was well-known to be still progressing quite late in the piece, work was definitely still ongoing in Q4 2010.

      • Sonny says:

        Doesnt the n950 have a 12mp camera?

  3. dss says:

    This is how Symbian should’ve looked like it 2009 …

  4. Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

    They should have used this UI and forget the swipe UI.

    Swipe UI took too long to develop and it’s not so elegant because applications are allowed to prevent UI from responding to swipes. That’s a huge problem because there is no physical button.

    • Fadi says:

      You clearly never used a Harmattan device before…

      • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

        You clearly never had an enormous amount of applications for a Harmattan device.

        It’s funny how people don’t think it’s a problem if the UI isn’t consistent.

        • Jiipee says:

          you meant that all the apps dont follow the general guidelines or that some games block swipe down to close and side swipes?

          They should have released Dali UI and then allow upgrade to swipe. Once again the management blocked delivery. I dont know, when the swipe design wad started, but for the first time Nokia was fast in execution. Too bad that the mgmt failed to allow more lean development methods 10years earlier, when there already people asking for it.

          • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

            I mean that it’s a problem if some application is allowed to disable the normal behavior of the UI. The user should always know how to continue using the UI.

            The had crappy management and extremely crappy organization what it comes to communication and making decisions. Nokia should be taking lessons from Apple and Google. Not just about presentation and design.

            I bet the swipe implementation was reasonably fast because they already had the OS working.

            I believe the management killed that UI just because they thought it was inferior to the one Apple had. There was nothing really new about it and Nokia’s management was panicking because of Apple and the success of the iPhone and iPad. What they didn’t understand was how fast Android was going to kill Symbian in the low end. They just didn’t understand that time was running out.

          • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

            Have you ever worked with coders/designers who can’t tolerate it if everything is not perfect? People who stop doing what they are doing when they find out something that’s not coded/designed by the book?

            • everlfr says:

              first spede then err now leo.. who the hell are these guys?

            • Jiipee says:

              Everyday ;) Not exactly, my business partners know the meaning of time to money. Later one can optimize the software.

              One of them used to work on Symbian 2003-05. He’s got good stories of eg Peter’s syndrome.

              OSSO/maemo organization had the kind of mentality you are mentioning. On Symbian & S40 side it was much more lack of direction, bad personnel choises, overstaffing, internal competition etc.

    • v.s.i says:

      Swipe UI took 8 months to develop and deliver. Plus it was done by a design studio in NY. And, of course, pointing out an almost non-existent problem when the whole picture is genius could be indulgently called nitpicking.
      Back on topic, it’s really gruesome to imagine what must have been going on in this company. Not one year after the N900 is launched you have the successor ready (having prototyped both in parallel for a good while). But then, for some reason, it takes more than another year and a whole new UI to actually launch it, which means 2009 HW paired with 2013-4 SW.

      And really, this says it all. There were people that could have made a Maemo future possible. From 2005 to 2010 they had this chance. But instead they f*cked it all up big time.
      So now that chance has passed. New times, new ideas. Let us see what the still many talents Nokia has bring us in the future.

      That’s not to say they can’t include a dash of Lauta QWERTYness, Harmattan Swipe magic or the much-loved FMTX, Sleeping Screen, HDMI on new devices – on the contrary, they have to, if only for appeasing the loyal fans who’ve seen them through all these years.

      I’m just saying we should – as people – learn from mistakes past and – as gadget fans – appreciate every good idea in a product, regardless of brand, OS or phone itself. Because there’s no way to stand tall if the past is all you have to be proud of. :)

      • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

        Wasn’t it more like 12+ months to deliver swipe UI? After all, they started developing it in August 2010 and didn’t ship when they were showing it to the public in the summer of 2011?

        Really, that problem doesn’t exist? It’s actually incredible how people call that kind of an issue non-existent. You don’t probably understand what it means when the UI is not consistent.

        I bet someone might consider it really nice if the home button of the iPhone just stopped working when some app decided to use it for something else. You don’t see any problems with that? I do. It would render the phone unpredictable when using some apps.

        More like 2010 hardware paired with software from 2011.

        Yes, Nokia didn’t deliver. That’s what matters. They wanted to save some money, protect Symbian and downplay competition like Android. I’m not a fan of Google, Nokia or Apple. I may like some products they make but I really wonder how some people almost love some of those companies. Nokia in particular considering how they messed up almost everything since 2003.

        Lots of potential. That was the story.

        Actually I understand some of that. It’s because of that one feature Nokia was putting there.

        What about Nokia, Apple and Google?

        I really like some products from all of those companies.

        • v.s.i says:

          Well, I don’t particularly like any of the 2 American companies you mentioned, although each have their merits to be sure. Apple knows marketing right, the iPhone 5 is a pretty good mid-range phone this year and I’ll be the first to recognise the App Store is a benchmark.
          Likewise Google. If only they had made a real Linux distro… I’d love to try a Meizu MX2, it looks cool HW and SW-wise and it doesn’t use any Google services that require an account.

          To each his own I guess :)

        • dansus says:

          Dev said it was 9months. Not that it matters.

          • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

            How can that be if the work started on August 2010 and N9 shipped in September 2011?

            • Jiipee says:

              You should try to limit your aggressiveness a bit. And stop for a moment to think.

              I cannot remember how it was exactly phrased, but the delay was due to ‘f***** up reasons’ relating to mgmt, hardware and software according to the best available public source. See Konttori’s ‘Thoughts’ blog. Maybe the UX was ready, but manufacturing problems were delaying the launch. In any case with available info it is fully possible that the UX was ready in 8months or if the delay was due to UX problems, in 12 months. One could argue that without the strategy change ans subseguent personnel departures, it could have been faster.

              I’ve used iphone/ipad only for a limited time to test how web sites and apps look on it. Is it at all valid question, how apps are closed since they are mostly paused in the background? MS needs to solve the back button issue with WP. I use wp every now and then and still I never remember that eg in browser it is used as back button unless the page in question is the entry page and the whole app is closed. I dont know about the different Android skins to comment.

              • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                Aggressiveness. Actually I’m adjusting or trying to adjust all this to the level people are using when talking about the subject. I think that’s how everyone will get most of the conversation. It’s like we speak the same language in the emotional level while that may not be completely true.

                However that was not meant to be aggressive comment. What I was trying to say, in a very short message, that they started to work on UI in August 2010 and as far as I know, they worked on it until the last possible moment. Actually the launch was delayed a bit because of a showstopper bug found in the last moment.

                It also depends on how you measure the work. If you don’t count all the bug fixing, it’s probably only little over 8 months. I do count that because I think it’s integral part of the process. There can’t be real software development without that.

                It could have been faster without people leaving the project but it could have been slower if the management was still interested about getting MeeGo proper released.

                In iOS applications are paused in the background if there is no need for them to be active. Mobile multitasking differs in this aspect from the desktop multitasking. The coder has to add special support for multitasking.

                This approach has drawbacks but also some really nice benefits. It forced the coder to think how and when the app is multitasking. And also what it should be doing while it does that.

                For the user it gets really simple to use the applications. Most people don’t have to care about if the app is running or not. If you leave it paused on background, OS will release the memory when some other app needs ram. Because the state of the app is stored on disk, it can resume from the point if was closed. This of course needs the coder to add support for resuming. Most games don’t use resuming if the ram has been released. If it’s not, you can continue the game from where you left it when you resume the app.

                If you have some app multitasking, it just remains on background performing those tasks it was programmed to do. Most apps don’t never need to be closed. Not even these ones because eventually the OS will close them if you don’t really use the app and ram needs to be freed.

                There are some cases you should close the apps. very few of those. Usually this should be done with apps using lots of battery. Navigation, internet radio or something like that may use too much power while running on the background so leaving those on may not be too smart. However apps like Navigon will be terminated by the battery saving measures if you leave them on background and they are not saving any locations or using voice.

                But the basic rule on iOS is that you should almost never have to close any app because OS takes care of everything. And this really works pretty well because developers are forced to add all the support for state saving and/or mobile multitasking. If it was voluntary, it would be a mess and the user should sometimes use task manager.

      • Janne says:


        And really, this says it all. There were people that could have made a Maemo future possible. From 2005 to 2010 they had this chance. But instead they f*cked it all up big time.

        This, my friends, is Nokia’s biggest mistake this decade. This is what cost them the crown, because it let iPhone in and then Android in. Instead of bringing up Maemo, they concentrated on the uncompetitive Symbian and Maemo was left on some schizophrenic acid trip magical mystery tour.

        • Janne says:

          (By “this decade” I mean the past decade obviously, not literally the 2010 decade.)

          • nn says:

            And the biggest mistake of this decade is WP. Instead of bringing Symbian/MeeGo/Qt they concentrated on uncompetitive and unwanted WP and killed every other option.

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              The biggest mistake of this decade happened every day they didn’t kill Symbian after January 1. 2010.

              Elop’s strategy change in Feb 2011 can’t even be seen from the graph illustrating Symbian’s collapse.


              Now why is that? Do you know the answer why it can’t be seen?

              • nn says:

                I can’t give you specific reasons for why you don’t see it, perhaps it has a lot to do with the fact you are very confused man who even doesn’t know when decade starts, let alone is able to find numbers or graphs about Nokia.

                But I find it really entertaining that you even dismiss the standard WP fans excuse that yes, Nokia crashed in 2011, but it’s fault of OPK, Ollila or whoever didn’t do the right decision some five years before, and from that point it was all destined to happen as it happened no matter what. Instead you choose to outright deny there was crash in 2011.

                • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                  This decade started in 1.1.2010. Some people may have other opinions and I bet someone will claim how 1990 was the last year of the 80′s. In my books it was not.

                  The reason why you can’t really pinpoint any collapse starting from the strategy change may be because Symbian was already collapsing and it was just collapsing further when the strategy announcement was made. No impact from that.

                  • nn says:

                    Yeah, sure, and the first decade started in 1.1.0. There are some with opinions that year zero actually doesn’t exist in calendar, but they are the same who look at Nokia and see phantom drastic changes in 2011.

        • Dave says:

          I had one of the early Maemo devices, the 770. Cracking device – bit of a toy, but considering its meagre resources, it was pretty darned excellent.

          Symbian could have been competitive (heck, it *was* the smartphone market for years), but Nokia did virtually nothing to update it in a big way.

          And what was the ultimate cause of all this? Management incompetence, 100% of the way.

    • dansus says:

      They didnt have a UX story to sell other than multitasking and decided to expand on it.

      • Janne says:

        In the meanwhile their UX story was Symbian^1 and Symbian^3.

        They simply should have done swipe later. At the very least N900 should have been followed by N950 by Q3/2010. But most importantly, N900 should have been out in 2005, followed by a consumer edition six months prior to iPhone launch.

        • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

          Consumer edition?

          Are you suggesting that Nokia should have invented the iPhone before Apple did?

          I just wonder how would this have been possible? After all iPhone was a true invention and it had tons of fresh ideas in one great package. It was so much ahead of it’s time that the launch video from January 2007 still looks quite fresh.

          Inventions seem to be really simple after they have become popular but the iPhone was something very few people could have really invented before Apple did.

          Actually Apple has a very long history in mobile UI design. They had graphical UI used in mass marketed mobile devices long before Nokia and they had the talent to continue this work.

          • Janne says:

            Yes, of course I am suggesting Nokia should have invented iPhone before Apple.

            Look, I am not saying this “Maemo iPhone” should (or even could) have had everything that made iPhone great, but it could have had many things, including a good browser that was still a scarcity on mobile devices at that point and a major selling point of the first iPhone (before apps).

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              I don’t just understand how that would have been possible since iPhone was a fresh invention. Nokia really had no idea about the design iPhone had.

              It’s actually too simple as a device of the time. Just compare it with the 770 or almost anything else. Really hard to believe Nokia would have come up with anything like it because at the time it was all about adding features. Not removing them. 770 has lots of features and the iPhone does not.

              It’s true that they could have used a good browser. I bet the biggest problems with Nokia had with browsers were Symbian and the hardware they were using for the phones. Linux core would have solved the first problem but OPK was seeking for lest costs and they had very little ram on the phones.

              Greed is another problem that was killing Nokia. Touch screen cost more money and using one would have added manufacturing costs. Yes, this happened because opf OPK, not Elop. And people are still claiming that Elop killed Nokia.

              It’s actually incredible!

              • Janne says:

                I guess you understand my point if you don’t take iPhone too literally in this sense. I mean Nokia could have introduced something in the same sphere of devices, not necessarily obviously good in the same things etc. but something more similar before iPhone – something they could have also adapted faster to respond.

                And you are right, OPK cost-pinching is one big reason. Steve Jobs went with product first, it all starts with great product. OPK was a bean counter, who didn’t believe as expensive as phone as iPhone was could be sold. And it showed in Nokia’s response to the first iPhone…

                • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                  I understand your point very well. With a phone using Linux core, Nokia would have been able to keep down the costs and there could have been a competitive OS with a competitive UI. There wouldn’t have been the horrors of Symbian and Nokia would have been able to react quickly enough.

                  It’s a real pity that OPK was allowed to destroy Nokia. I never understood the way he managed Nokia and I probably never will.

                  But guess what the real irony is? I don’t believe too many Finns understand how greed killed Nokia. Counting those beans, saving on hardware and treating people like resources.

                  In that book about Steve Jobs, it’s very rare to read how he shipped a bad product or cut down costs until the product was no longer that great. Yes, ye did that when dumping Lisa but that was more like exception.

                  It’s almost embarrassing to read how a certain ex Nokia manager keeps yelling how Apple just have to make some kind of iPhone nano. It’s just what killed Nokia.

                  • jiipee says:

                    “But guess what the real irony is? I don’t believe too many Finns understand how greed killed Nokia. Counting those beans, saving on hardware and treating people like resources. ”

                    + arrogance and horrible subcontracting policies.

                    I disagree with you on who’s to blame. Ollila drove the data driven business culture at Nokia. OPK just continues as a proper bean counter would do. Id like to hear more why eg. Alahuhta decided to leave Nokia. He’s done splendid work at Kone and everyone I talk with give credit to their HR policies and practices.

                    Btw. @jphelminen has a lot better tweets coming from ex-Nokia director.

          • jiipee says:

            It would be nice to see what was the Nokia’s pre-Iphone touch screen device like. I bet the UI was a lot worse at launch, but it would have diminished the Iphone impact and allowed gradual improvements over time without panic. Too bad it was canceled.

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              Well, there is little information about all the touch screen phones Nokia was developing, but 7710 just might give some idea about how they saw the future of the touch screen.


              770 is not too much different from that what it comes to the looks of the UI.


              I still remember what I was thinking when I saw the 770 first time in 2005. Let’s say I was not impressed. Mostly because of the hardware design (nothing like iPad offered years later) and the UI had too many elements requiring extremely precision when using the touch screen.

              One interesting device Nokia had in the very early 2000. Did you know they had this Symbian tablet back in the days? It had a weight of a laptop computer and it was really crude. Somehow it never went into production. There was prototypes approximately at the same time Apple had been researching iPad for a short time and probably didn’t have any working prototypes.

              No phone in it but it would have been interesting device if it was released.

              • Janne says:

                I agree that the UX on N770 was far from optimal, yet it was ways more powerful for the upcoming touch smartphone task than Nokia’s Symbian branch ever was. Had Nokia released a N770 phone in 2005, even if just like N770 but a phone, their response to iPhone would have been ways more competitive – and would have come a lot faster too. Maemo was just inherently better suited to the task at hand.

                • jiipee says:

                  Some sources claim that it wouldnt have taken much to include phone in N770, but Nokia was too afraid of operators opposing it. One of the arguments against the early plans for application store was the same. Nokia was afraid to introduce one since the operators wanted to own their clients and offer services/applications themselves.

          • StefanP says:

            I agree with Janne that Nokia was in the position to invent something similar or superior to the iPhone and they missed that chance. This was the time of the PDAs in different sizes and shapes. Phones were just feature phones. I use a couple of Palm PDAs and they were great! I expected that touch screen PDAs and phones MUST merge, this was a very logical step. Nokia had the resources to do it. Actually really not a big invention, just a logical step.

          • Dave says:

            How much of a revisionist are you? You get worse and worse.

            The original iPhone was *not* a true invention. In fact, nothing on the iPhone is new.

            As for your last item, are you talking the Newton? That was an interesting product which they never quite got right (handwriting recognition that never worked).

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              Of course we can say that neither Nokia or Apple never invented anything original. Everything is always based on some previous work done by someone else.

              Yes, there were touch screen phones before iPhone. However no one was making using one so easy as Apple did.

              Nokia didn’t have true OS updates on phones. Apple introduced that. They brought even the App Store for the original iPhone in 2007.

              They had this new concept of using touch screen for almost everything. From opening the phone to pinch zoom on a phone. I didn’t see that on a Nokia phone before that?


              It’s possible to say that neither Nokia or Apple never invented anything.

              Apple invented the modern smartphone. A nice phone and how arrogant Nokia was when it was introduced? Really arrogant!

              You see, this is about honesty and giving credit where credit is due.

  5. GordonH says:

    This hurts in so many ways for Meego fans.

    • Janne says:

      This hurts in so many for Nokia fans. The missed opportunities caused by the unnecessary Symbian touch and MeeGo/Intel adventures.

      Nokia had Maemo for years and could have, should have – absofrigginglutely should have – concentrated their firepower on getting it out much earlier, much more broadly.

      The Symbian religion inside Nokia killed it, unfortunately, all the infighting and upper-management indecision that resulted in Maemo getting sidetracked time and time again.

      Maemo would have been Nokia’s knight in shining armour had they played the card early enough and well enough. It would have out-iPhoned the iPhone.

      • GordonH says:

        I understand Janne your sentiments… but for millions of Nokia fans the true the meego killer was and is the Microsoft religion.

        • Janne says:

          I agree that MeeGo was put out of its misery at Nokia by the Elop regime. But it was in actuality killed by the indecision and Symbian religion under OPK regime, that hindered Maemo to the point where it was – when a new CEO was ushered in to fix things.

          You know, you CAN look at these separately. Mistakes at Nokia pre-Elop no way diminish Elop’s responsibility for mistakes made under his watch. The WP strategy launch/move away from existing platforms was clearly botched, we’ll see if the actual strategy flies or not.

          Even you have to see the painful reality of what Maemo could have and should have been, had the Symbian religion not ruled at Nokia.

          • StefanP says:

            Most probably it really was the Symbian religion. Initially Nokia phones where famous for their clear structure and ease of use. I could watch their UI getting more and more cluttered and messy. And then they totally ignored touch screen devices. Wasn’t this even before OPK? Maybe Symbian wasn’t ready for touch screens and they were not able or willing to do bigger changes or dare to look for alternatives. I think they also felt like the king of mobile devices and undisputed trend setter, no need to change anything.

            • Janne says:


              It probably started before OPK, but had OPK on first day as CEO on the office, in late 2005, decided to put everything necessary behind making Maemo the successor to current Symbian non-touch devices he could have very likely outdone the iPhone. But yes, realistically you can also blame Ollila (and he was still the Chairman) and overall the Nokia culture at the time.

              • StefanP says:

                The overall Nokia culture. I ask myself how could it come this far? There was so much dynamics and innovation when Nokia started in the telecom industry. And in general so much innovation and fresh wind came and is coming from Finland. Probably nobody and no organisation is immune to become decadent and success drunken if rising too fast.

              • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                Yes and no.

                If Nokia had decided to star working on phone with a Linux core, they could have shipped it possibly in 2008 if they started in 2005.

                That would have worked pretty well because iPhone started to gain some real traction only in 2008 when the iPhone 3G was released. On the other hand problem was that Apple introduced the iPhone only in early 2007 and they invented the modern smartphone with the iPhone.

                Before 2007 Nokia would have probably implemented something really complex to use. At the time they had this idea about mobile computers and that was not such a great idea because it was really about the tech. Not about usage. Maemo/whatever phone introduced by Nokia in 2008 would have been using an UI more like the N900 had and that was not as easy as the iPhone had.

                In any case it was not Elop who killed Nokia. It was OPK and the Symbian religion. Elop is just the guy trying to clean the mess.

                • Janne says:

                  Nokia had the N770 out in 2005. It is not unfeasible that a decision to add a phone to that effort would have resulted in a polished consumer phone one, two years later. Even more so, if that decision had been made at the start of the Maemo project, earlier…

                  It might not have been *the* iPhone, but that big a leap from Nokia at that time – before the iPhone – would have greatly diminished iPhone’s shine. Maybe it would realistically have had a stylus and qwerty, but still it found have been leaps and bounds beyond what Nokia was offering (and would be) with Symbian.

                  If “N900″ would have come out in 2006 or 2007, think of what kind of a Maemo “N97″ could have been out in 2009 when there was still time to limit iPhone and curb the Android invasion…

                  • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                    That’s true. I guess Nokia could be still selling quite a few phones with Linux core, if they had pursued that path. No question about that.

                    They may have slowed down the iPhone and Android. It’s very probable that they would have survived and they had the third ecosystem at the moment.

                    But no, Symbian was a religion and people claimed that it can be extended to use touch screen. It’s still a religion. I was just talking last week with someone believing how Elop killed Symbian, Qt and everything. Only Elop.

                    N97 with a Linux core would have been big and it wouldn’t have destroyed Symbian’s reputation as the N97 with Symbian did. E7 was something better but it’s really quite horrible even with the latest OS.

                    • GordonH says:

                      The symbian religion delayed Meego… but the Microsoft religion killed, stabbed and strangled Meego.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Actually it was Nokia.

                      Nokia never had more than one OS they really pushed. That was the Nokia way.

                      Too bad that they didn’t have someone like Steve Jobs (genius, you know) to run the company. He was not afraid of cannibalising any other product from Apple. Nokia was extremely afraid of that and that’s because it was not possible to have MeeGo, WP and Android. Even if they had money for all of those.

                    • GordonH says:

                      Yes I agree with you now 100% Microsoft killed Meego.

          • tomwhat says:

            It wasn’t killed by symbian – it is totally right that symbian weakened and hindered the Maemo development – but killing was ONLY done by Elop. Even under Elop there could have always been a niche line…but declaring it as dod means killing and no…Nokia N9′s harmattan wasn’t perfectly polished but arguing that it would never “fly” and just got its finishing stroke is a nonsense.

            I have nothing against Elops cleaning the management and tightening strings inside Nokia. but the Microsoft religion (also very prominent on this blog) means: “Nokia could have only be saved by WP”

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              Very few people are claiming that only WP could have saved Nokia.

              Unfortunately Android was not such a great option for Nokia for several reasons. Never underestimate how arrogant Nokia was even in the early 2011. Publicly starting the development on Android would have meant admitting how Google won the battle. That was extremely hard just because of the arrogance.

              The other problem was that Nokia was not allowed to replace Google’s services with ones provided by Nokia. Google doesn’t allow fragmentation and Nokia would have been controlled by Google what it comes to that. Even adding pre installed Qt is questionable. Going the Amazon path would have required lots of additional work.

              “Surrendering” to Google would have probably worked, but the arrogance was a real problem.

              • RVM says:

                “Surrendering” to Google would be even worse than going with Microsoft. I really wouldn’t buy any device with a spyware called Android.

                • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                  Android is really some serious spyware. Most people accusing Apple from spying their users don’t really care about Google doing that with Android.

                  I like Android but I don’t like the way Android manages privacy. Actually iOS is “5 years” ahead of Android what it comes to privacy.

                  With the iPhone you can choose if some application has access to contacts, photos, location or something else. This is not possible with Android. It’s There are no real warnings and some application may send all your personal data to the manufacturer of the application.

                  This may have been one more reason why Nokia didn’t choose Android.

                  • GordonH says:

                    Back to my point… The Microsoft religion killed Meego.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      MeeGo was too little too late.

                      It cost too much for Nokia.

                      No applications, no real migration path from Symbian.

                      UI was not that good and old school Nokia fans don’t even understand the problem.

                      They should have released MeeGo in 2009 or maybe early 2010. After that, it was just too late.

                    • GordonH says:

                      You are being very defensive of the Microsoft religion inside Nokia.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      You can call it religion if you want to.

                      However it doesn’t make it a religion.

                      You have very interesting style for making conversations. You preach.

                      You have one opinion you want people to agree and you just repeat it hoping that people will agree with you.

                      It’s so much easier to make people believe something that is actually true.

                      Tomi Ahonen can make some people to believe his lies, but that happens just because he repeats his lies so many times that some people start to think there might be some truth about them. He gives frustrated people explanations and those people don’t really care if something is lie or not. They just want to blame someone because their favorite OS was a failure. They just want to blame someone else. Elop is a perfect target for that.

                      I guess Tomi Ahonen started to spread these lies about Elop probably because he had too little (paid) work and there could have been some financial problems he was facing. It’s a great story to claim that Elop was the reason Nokia collapsed. It doesn’t have to be true. Tomi can just claim that and he gets publicity from frustrated people wanting to believe Nokia’s strategy was working.

                    • GordonH says:

                      “You have very interesting style for making conversations. You preach.

                      You have one opinion you want people to agree and you just repeat it hoping that people will agree with you. ”

                      Same goes to you. You repeat the same things in a long conversation, I too repeat the same things but I just shorten it.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Nice to see how you openly admit that you just preach.

                      Actually it’s quite different for me. While you preach your beliefs, I tell why. I can actually talk. You can’t because there seems to be so few you can really say.

                      In addition to preaching that is.

                      But I guess you write here because you have faith. I write because I want to learn.

                      That’s the difference between two of us.


                    • GordonH says:

                      Nice to succeed in pulling your leg. You do that too much around here. People have their opinions but you, you just keep on talking and talking and talking.
                      Tip: Usually it is easier to learn by listening.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Some of us do and some of us just “listen.”

                      I guess your advice is to just listen and do nothing.

                      Unfortunately that’s not how you learn. By doing nothing.

                    • GordonH says:

                      “I guess”

                      attth ahhhttt
                      So so wrong “guess”. And out of context again.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      It’s nice that we have someone like you here.

                      Someone who can really afford look down on us when we don’t communicate properly.

              • jiipee says:

                Surrendering to Google wouldnt have been much different than surrendering to MS. Only the mapping business was different. If one looks at the turnover and (negative) profits from that business, it could have been more feasible agree the mistake and sell it. Apple probably would have been glad to buy it. That business needs to become 10 fold or even more to cover the loss between Android strategy and WP. Nokia would have had full range of devices out, the logistics chain (one of their last competitive edges in 2011) would still be working, and there would be no WP7 to mess the picture even more. That would have bought them time to consider Qt and they most probably would have avoided the sourcing problems of today since Android is the platform today, to which hw adaptation is done by default.

                Without knowing the actual state of Meltemi, they could have disrupted the low end (as well as destroy the high end margins, which would be also negative for Nokia) with optimized software to low end + mass scale produced hardware + design UX. (wording loaned from jp helminen).

                Disclaimer: I still think that silent death of Symbian, WP for North America and especially business segment and keeping Linux arm would have been the best choise. This was valid option only, if there was not threat of hostile takeower.

                • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                  I agree pretty much about what you are saying.

                  Well. That’s why I wrote about “surrendering” and not surrendering. Working with Google and designing Android phones would have worked well. It was just because of the arrogance why Android was not a real option for them. It should have been their choice.

                  Nokia has probably some obsession about maps. That may be the reason they turned down Android and chose WP. But yes, selling maps, developing Android phones and experimenting out with some Linux core OS could have worked. I think that would have been one of the best choices.

                  Silent death of Symbian would have been a good choice but I still wonder if they really needed some wake up call or not. That memo about a burning platform was supposed to be a wake up call for people living in the Symbian religion.

  6. StefanP says:

    Salt on our wounds to dig this out again. Nokia messed this up and is not interested in this considerable user segment. So be it. For me it looks like Jolla continues the good work and I wish them all the best for this!

    • Janne says:

      This particular one was messed up under OPK though, while they still were interested in the user segment, but were unable to let go of their Symbian past. That indecision led to cancellations and delays within the Maemo/MeeGo programs that arguably, ironically, were not fixed until during Elop’s regime.

      By then, they of course concluded it was too late (and that’s a different story), but some say the N9 as we know it would not even be out had it not been for the ouster of OPK. Oh the irony.

      Nokia should have gone big with Maemo in 2005.

      • jiipee says:

        I find that overly simplistic approach based on the information I have from former Symbian devs. Symbian became cluttered due to incompenent management and unfitting organizational structure. And the Symbian development was badly delayed when the Symbian foundation was created. I would like to hear more on how Nokia behaved towards other Symbian adopters. For what Ive understood, they could have improved the situation:
        – Combining the different development threads that were separated to E, N, C -organinations and became incompatible
        – Buying Qt a lot earlier as proposed by some parties (I know that there were some initial discussion pre-2005) or buying rights to the Ericsson UI base
        – Close down 80% of development sites, who were either doing nothing or parallel work
        – Allow innovation despite mediocre financial risks
        – Stop limiting the hardware just to save some cents: too few memory for instance. This would have saved development time.

        This summarizes a lot of the points Ive heard from people doing hands on work.;

        Still, I would have put more effort to Maemo=linux. In longer term it would have been better for hw adaptation, multiple device categories and competing against Apple and Microsoft ecosystems.

        • GordonH says:

          Well said and very clear points.
          But MS fans here will turn a blind eye to the importance of Nokia.

          • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

            Just like old school Nokia fans turn a blind eye on the importance of Apple?

            Nokia was destined to collapse because of the corporate culture they had.

            • jiipee says:

              That I agree on. Ollila should have left ages ago. Too bad Ala-Pietilä did not accept nomination as CEO candidate when OPK was chosen.

              • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                Losing Ala-Pietilä had an enormous impact on Nokia. That had a true leader and they were not able to keep him. This is another matter most people don’t understand. I have heard numerous times how Vanjoki should have been the next CEO but very few people talk about Ala-Pietilä.

          • Janne says:


            What in Jiipee’s message would result in: “But MS fans here will turn a blind eye to the importance of Nokia.”

            I don’t get the conclusion and I doubt Jiipee does either.

            I am not turning a blind eye on the “importance of Nokia”, quite the contrary, I was offering my opinion on how Nokia could have saved itself years ago.

            Jiipee is certainly right that Symbian was botched and maybe with better execution it might have fared better, but I’d say that was a much taller order – to fix Symbian and the Symbian organization – than to put Maemo to really work for Nokia. Maemo certainly had a better organization in place, even if neglected by the middle (and upper) management of the company.

            • GordonH says:

              Whatever the points here a million times, MS fans(if they ever existed) here will keep pushing for WP inside Nokia.

  7. Sonny says:

    Tell me what exactly happened to maemo5 or 6?

    Why on earth cant nokia release just one maemo/Harmattan phone like a n10 with up to date specs like dual core,hd screen,pureview cam?

    • Janne says:

      You tell me why OPK cancelled the first Maemo 6 device. Why OPK chose to delay MeeGo after that with a 9-12 delay by waiting for swipe.

      Elop certainly didn’t cause the delay between N900 and N9. And he certainly didn’t cause the delay between N770 and N9.

      • ftw says:

        we all know the problems, blaaaa blaaaaaaaaa blaaaa…. Wen the N9 came out it was a clear winner, if only a bit late.

        So what is WP excuse? They are saying that WP8 is now also gona be killed in the summer and merged with windows blue, in a incompatible manner again :)

        • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

          Clear winner?

          In blogs maybe, but then again iPhone 4S was a clear loser in blogs. In real world it was all different.

          N9 didn’t have as elegant UI as iPhone has. It was delayed and it was lacking applications. No services and only one model to start with. Underpowered model.

          • ftw says:

            replace wp/lumia800 “didn’t have as elegant UI as iPhone has. It was delayed and it was lacking applications. No services and only one model to start with. Underpowered model.”

            what is the difference?
            this one is true wp 7 was deeply unelegant

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              I don’t like the UI WP has, but I consider it much more elegant compared to what N9 had.

              People never really explained that well why disabling swipe is not a real problem or can’t be one.

              With WP you can still get back if you press the button. It’s definitely not as nice as iPhone has, but you can get back.

        • viktor von d. says:

          what the hell are you talking about? windows blue is an update for w8 and maybe win rt. it will bring new features and that’s it. it’s not a drastic change and it doesn’t have anything to do with wp8.

          it will take some years before they merge w8 with rt or winrt with wp

          • ftw says:

            are you sure about that? many were sure that wp7 hardware was compatible with wp8!
            rumours back then pointed it would be not,
            Rumours say now that it will be yet again rebooted and merged with main core windows. We will see ;)

        • Janne says:

          WP has no excuses. This is about Nokia’s choices before WP.

          • Noki says:

            good to know.

            Open question what should nokia do now that it faces smartphone destruction with WP? expand S40? join the android party? licence BB10. Licence sailfish? Give up on smartphones?

            Fact is that the WP experiment was a terrible fail and no one can expect that Q1 will have better results, or subsequent quarters after that….(hardware specks for 2013 smartphones are again unreachable for wp8) So and in light that thanks to asha nokia might survive what should Nokia do?

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              Very hard to say, but it was not so bad it could have been. Tomi Ahonen was forecasting that Nokia would be selling only 2,5 million Lumia phones.

              Android is an option. However it’s not certain that Nokia could succeed with Android phones. It was not certain in early 2011 and it’s definitely not certain now.

              Releasing Android phones now would result some serious problems for the future of the Lumia phones. But yes, Nokia is currently designing Android phone(s).

              It would make sense to release Android phone in Q3 if they can’t make Lumia succeed in H1.

              • GordonH says:

                Again again you bringing in Tomi out of context. What is it with your commenting everywhere?

                • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                  Just keep preaching and keep your eyes closed.

                  • GordonH says:

                    WTF is wrong with you?

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      You seem to be a preacher who don’t want to hear or see anything which doesn’t work with your faith.


                    • Noki says:

                      my suspicion is that he his being paid to spread random FUD here, most of his comments are completely random, and mostly ignorant, and he seams like he as a problem that forces him to have the last word in any topic, no mater how clueless it makes him look.
                      I have given up on talking to the character its completely pointless.

                    • Noki says:

                      Or he might just have romantic feelings about Tomi. at least some sort of fixation.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:


                      Even in this blog post there are several replies to my messages that I didn’t answer.

                      See. There goes your claim about “the last word in any topic”. Not the first time you claimed something that was not true.

                      You gave up talking to me because you failed to prove your fabricated claim about 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011. You seem to like making claims you can’t prove.

                      What else?

                      I hope we could talk about the subject/subject. Not about the people talking about it. This site seems to have some people furiously trying to prevent some subjects to be talked about. This is often done by substituting the original topic with personal critic.

                      How about talking about mobile phones and not about people reading about them?


                    • Noki says:

                      @GordonH see and then he flat out lies
                      “your fabricated claim about 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011″
                      wen I did no such thing, Disgraceful behaviour of some one with without any sort of moral.
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      He was the one that brought the subject of the claim in the first place. Saying that Tomi (his love) made that number up.
                      All i did was point him to the article in all about symbian that exposed the math they did. That he did not cared to look up and expected me to do that for him…
                      In the end I did the efort and replecated part of the “math” but he Is so intellectually dishonest that he now twisted the conversation in to making the claim that, I claimed 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011.

                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      oli aliarvostettu certainly qualifies for all adjectives he uses for Tomi (his love).

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      You gave a link to some conversation having 183 messages. You didn’t bother to tell me what was the actual message with the so called proof about sales of 1,75 million N9 phones in Q4 2011.

                      Yes. List of messages with different guesses is not a proof about 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011.

                      Unfortunately it looks like Tomi Ahonen fabricated this number. It is not too uncommon to see how Tomi Ahonen lies and makes up numbers so that he can make a living from those fabricated stories.

                      If any real proof about those sales exists, you could easily prove that with a source but unfortunately you seem to be unable to present one.


                    • Noki says:

                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      Instead of apologizing for having LIED (“your fabricated claim about 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011″) he makes up arguments about my link having to much replays.
                      and then goes back to LIES ” Tomi Ahonen fabricated this number” wen he stated he got them from the link he cant be bothered to read.

                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      He is dishonest and a liar.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      Just showed (again) everyone how there is no proof that Nokia sold 1,75 million N9 phones in Q4 2011.

                      Yes, some people keep claiming it happened but there is no proof.

                    • Noki says:

                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      He is dishonest and a liar.

                      keeps claiming that I said such a thing.

                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      He is dishonest and a liar.

                      Keeps claiming that it was Tomi that made up those numbers. Wen pointed at the actual text.

                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      He is dishonest and a liar.

                      He is to lazy to figure the math out even after being presented. But can’t help himself to bring the subject around every 20 seconds

                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu
                      SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      The dishonest liar.

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

                      So, you admit it’s can’t be proved that Nokia sold 1,75 million N9 phones in Q4 2011?

                      What did I say?

                      “One classic example is that 1,75 million N9′s Tomi has been promoting as a fact.”

                      What did you say?

                      “The 1.75 M number was an inference from the numbers available at the time AFIK projected Symbian sales ASP and math. (insider information sharing) it was not 2 far from the truth”

                      Yes, never any proof about that. Just claims how someone proved it. Just copy paste that proof here and this is over.

                      The problem is that you can’t because there is no proof.

                    • Noki says:

                      “your fabricated claim about 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011″???

                      Now is. ” The 1.75 M number was an inference from the numbers available at the time AFIK projected Symbian sales ASP and math.”

                      Is a conjecture informed guess…

                      But SHAME ON oli aliarvostettu

                      The dishonest liar.

                      presented this as “fabricated claim” and that is Dishonest and a Lie.

                      I as its obvious in the text I merely pointed to the conjecture at the time of the claim, claim that, oli aliarvostettu The dishonest liar. keeps on bringing here as a “fabricated claim” over and over again as an argumentative trick to undermine any argumentation thread.

                      and that is…..Dishonest

                    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:


                      The claim about 1,75 million N9 phones sold in Q4 2011 is fabricated. Tomi Ahonen is trying to claim that is a valid number. However there is no proof about that.

                      Earlier you claimed that “it was not 2 far from the truth” and now you are telling me that it’s just a “conjecture informed guess”.

                      Just post the proof if there is any. Apparently that is not valid information so you can’t do that.

                      I hope you are not a typical Nokia fan.

      • Sonny says:

        No I mean currently. What happened to maemo currently? Did they kill that aswell? Why cant they release a phone like I said with the one on the n9?

        Who would not buy a harmattan device with Dual/Quad core cpu, hd/fhd display, and a pureview cam?

        Why do nokia have to struggle by selling the lumia/asha series where they can release a maemo6 device which will sell millions if marketed correctly.

        • Sonny says:

          This was a reply to janne

        • Janne says:

          Well, Maemo became MeeGo Harmattan under OPK, and now MeeGo at Nokia is no more. (Ignoring any possible long-term mobile research and location stuff involving Linux.) So, I guess “Maemo” is locked up on some server/tapes.

          Personally, I would have maintained a “hobby” Linux device alongside WP. For the sheer good PR if nothing else. I guess they chose to focus instead, that is a normal business decision certainly. Others choose to believe in conspiracies – I don’t.

          • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

            Believing in conspiracy theories is an easy way out. If you have some true faith in something and that something fails, it’s very easy to believe it was a conspiracy. That’s how you don’t have to admit that all that you believed in wasn’t something really superior and truly revolutionary.

            It’s too bad Nokia didn’t pursue Linux core mobile phone before the iPhone was introduced. That was a fatal mistake.

    • ftw says:

      because they fired every one, and there is no way an N9 successor would sell at the same levels wp Lumias are selling, I mean 500.000 per quarter is totally impossible……

      NO ONE WANTS AN WP… only 37% of current buyers plan on re-buying one only slight better than symbian 12% that in fact simply cant. givin its dead nature and all.

      • lrt says:

        You can claim whatever conclusions you want, but lets do some fact correcting first shall we?

        The research the article mentioned is released on march 2012. Done be deceived into thinking it involves windows phone 8. ;) or for that matter involves “current buyers”

  8. RVM says:

    Both MeeGo and Symbian have their issues. Sad thing is, that WP is far worse than those two.

    Terrible developer support (my friend who has developed for both iOS and Android, is now whining on WP development all the time), even worse app store policies (stupidly limiting apps in local stores), dumbfone-like limited functionality (should i even remind WP7.5 skype multitasking issues?), poor battery performance, stone-age camera UI, unusable calendar and generally bad ergonomics.

    I have/had Lumia 610 and Lumia 800 and both are miles behind Nokia 808 which i use now as my main phone.

    • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

      WP is trying to be an iPhone clone.

      Maybe that’s one reason why Nokia wanted it. They were extremely iPhone envy and WP was a dream come true for people wanting something different but still an carbon copy of iPhone.

      The UI is very different and they tried to copy the philosophy of the iPhone. Nice try.

      I wouldn’t dream of using my own 808 as a phone. Not reliable, lags and app support is horrible. Great camera. That’s why I got it.

      • RVM says:

        Well, from my own experiance, 808 is more reliable than Lumia 800.
        Also apps were better on 808 than on L800, at least at time when i still used it, late summer 2012. UI is fluid on both L800 and 808, but i have to admit that L800 is even smoother (not that i care much though) and on same places much faster (browser, facebook app). App launch times and time-consuming tasks are similar.

        • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

          We may have a different idea of a smooth UI. My 808 is not smooth.

          • RVM says:

            Ok, everyone knows that iOS and WP have smoothest UI. But those microseconds wont save your life. At the end of the day, it’s what can u do with your smartphone, that counts (and 808 can do MUCH MORE than any WP phone). Last month, my colleague wanted to show me something on his SGS2 with ICS. I was honestly surprised that it was not smooth at all (worse than 808). And we’re talking here about device which was praised by many and considered to be flagship of Android OS.

            • Leo oli aliarvostettu says:

              It’s very true that in the end of the day it’s all about what you can do with it. That’s why there is no single super phone that would be the best possible choice for everyone.

              My primary phone is iPhone 4S because it can do what I want it to do, it’s smooth and it’s reliable. Great camera and lots of ‘content’ in addition to a comfortable physical size.

              It would be interesting to compare 808 and SGS2 in real life. Unfortunately most internet comparisons are just pale reproductions of the real experience you can have when testing phones. Or anything.

      • RVM says:

        Anyway, what i wanted to say: Symbian has its issues, but still is very decent OS to use (in latest version). On the other hand WP7.5 is pain to use. And that’s not only my opinion, but also opinion of guy who bought my L800.

  9. lord says:

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