MNB RG: Discussion with Nokia folk at GITEX Tech week, Dubai: PureView, Lumia, Future Symbian products?

| October 22, 2012 | 74 Replies

Vineet Shrivastava emailed us some notes he made after having a chat with some Nokia folks at GITEX Tech week in Dubai.

Quite an interesting discussion. I’ve inserted my own feedback in italics.

Thanks Vineet!

_____________

Caught up with few Nokia folks (Middle East ___________ Manager and Middle East ________Manager) at GITEX Tech week in Dubai. All were 7+ years at Nokia and two were Finnish (one was Arab).

1) Surprisingly, they had Nokia 920 demo units with WP8.0 in their hands and were showing off ‘parts of it’ but on insistence were allowing us to hold it in our hands and have a casual supervised look around (But Joe Public could not come up and go through them). This maybe due to the HTC unlocked video demo by T-Break at the GITEX shopper event about a week prior to GITEX Tech Conference.

2) Pointed out to Microsoft *something* of Developer Relations (din’t quite catch her badge right, it was erm…,dangerously placed) at the adjacent stands that now that we’ve seen WP8, could be have more details? She freaked out and was surprised and just kept saying don’t say anything about it to anyone. Was aware of the HTC fiasco but unaware of Juggernaut Alpha (or feigned very well).Now had two conversations with the 2 main Nokia people (a woman who is the Head of Brand Marketing (___________) and 2 guys in _________ (___________))3) ___________ guy confirmed the 820 inductive charging cases add no thickness and that none of the 920′s thickness is due to the inductive coils (this is not true, the 820 charging cases are about 1 mm thicker). I pointed this out and he said oh it’s tiny, not really thicker. 10.7mm – 1mm = 9.7mm. Much more acceptable.4) ____________ guy indicated most of the bulk of the 920 came from the camera assembly and not from the wireless charging feature (I don’t believe him…entirely)

This is the PureView bit below that I found interesting.

5) In a 3 way discussion, they seemed surprised at the feedback towards the OIS and Pureview dilution/Pro issues. Apparently, internally, it was expected that OIS and improved low light photography would be seen as a bigger breakthrough than a larger MP camera. After all, the 41 MPs and oversampling only offer lossless zoom without bulky and noisy optical zooming whereas OIS offers a significant low-light breakthrough. The other image QUALITY improvements in the 808 come from the huge 1/1.2″ sensor and not the high number of pixels on it. Basically a 1/1.2″ sensor with 12 (or indeed 8 megapixels) would offer comparable quality and better lowlight performance (then the 808) but no lossless zoom.

 Would PureView V3 see 41mp with huge sensor and lossless zoom join OIS (so your zoom would be super stable at telephoto end) or would it be enough to have a 12mp camera, but with a huge sensor still and OIS? Low light would definitely be something else unheard of in a phone. But for marketing purposes, 41MP would indeed be a killer. You know, if Nokia bothered.

6) Asked ___________ if there might be further Symbian products, she said “there could be“. She insisted Symbian wasn’t legacy yet even though I insisted that it clearly was if PR-speak was ignored. She stuck to her guns. I asked if a multi-touch keyboard update (From Belle FP2) will be made available to N8 and siblings, she said she wasn’t sure.

Interesting comment above on the possibility of future Symbian devices or could be PR stuff. They can’t really comment on future stuff though I bet if you asked if there’d be ‘future’ WP they would say yes more instantly…or not?

7) Asked about biggest threat. Named Samsung not Apple (this is true in Middle East in India). Spoke about Samsung replacing basically every Nokia branded retail Store in Middle East and India, she responded by saying they weren’t particularly worried and it makes more sense for Samsung since they sell a full portfolio of electronics as opposed to Nokia. Not sure if cutting back on the retail stores is a concious decision or just that they have a very good excuse for it now that they are forced to.
.
8) Asked about Premium pricing of Nokia flagships and will there be adjustment considering Samsung is a lot more confident in its pricing (hiking it 10-15% twice in past 2 years) and HTC which used to have premium prices is now adjusting downwards in response to the competitive pressure. She responded by saying that once WP8 was out and released, they will assess where they stand in the competitive landscape and price the handsets accordingly. (This was not convincing. Pricing would be sealed at this stage and they know for sure where they stand).9) I homed in on the “where they stand part” and they clearly know what the landscape is like and would have for past 1 months. She re-iterated (very friendly way) that once Microsoft releases full OS they will know since there are still some things unfinished and under development (Again, not convincing. Feature freeze would have happened eons ago. It’s only a matter of polishing n making it work “well”. The exact feature mix would be internally known for weeks if not months).

10) Asked about possibly similarities in pricing to the US market where they undercut competitors with 900 pricing. She said that’s a carrier market whereas Middle East is a unsubsidised market so no connection. (They’re setting themselves to price it high)

11) Asked if Carrier partnerships/exclusives apply to UAE. She said yes, one carrier (there are only 2). I panicked and asked if it will still be sold unlocked and openly at retail. She said yes. Then I asked what’s the difference then because carriers do not subsidize handsets in UAE. She said they will now (hmmm…….not sure if that’s a good thing)

Is this a new thing – carrier subsidies at UAE? I know some people don’t like it but there is definitely value in them if you do your sums, they might work out better in the long run.

12) Asked if vague, tangential marketing campaigns will give way to no-nonsense marketing highlighting best features (Pureview, Maps, Drive, Build quality etc). She said there ads are pretty good! (uh-oh)

No, no, no, no, no. Clearly not. Please let me know of 1 great Nokia ad and I will show you 50 more terrible ones. Go ahead Nokia peeps.

13) Asked about recent problem in supply chain and logistics (Nokia had issues with its previous Distributor – Redington because it wanted exclusivity. Problem was, Reddington WAS exclusive in mobile sector (non-exclusive in others) and was doing a fantastic job. Nokia burned that relationship and guess who took over- Yup, Samsung)
She did not seem to know about this, did mention they changed retailer partnership to Landmark Group (Previously was Emirates computers IIRC)

I’m still peeved over this. Samsung seem to step in where Nokia drop the ball.

14) Asked to see her personal device. It was an N9. She was very happy to show it off

I reckon she’ll get a few fans just for this alone :)

15) Asked if they will offer International warranties to match certain competitors. Nope. In fact it will go backwards from GCC-region wide to being country-specific.

Hmm, there was more that I might recall later.
In the few mins I got with the fully functional WP8 demo unit. I looked for major changes (Multitasking view, swipe left for multitasking, grid view for apps) and found none. I also spoke to couple of the T-break guys who got the full video before being asked to take it down. I *REALLY* doubt they have any banner/headline feature to announce at least in the way of UIX. Those guys pretty much explored and combed through the whole thing.

2 more tidbits:I asked them why no microSD on the 920 and said that the “seamless design” excuse doesn’t hold water since a microSD slot would logically be placed at the top or bottom where there are other ports and slots anyway. They agreed, sort of. No excuse offeredI asked why the 1280×768 resolution? Why not 1280×720 since it makes no difference to sharpness but would make the 920 a lot more ergonomic to hold. Again agreed and offered no excuse. Microsoft person later chimed in (the Developer relations person) that the 1280×768 was mostly for aspect:ratio compatibility with earlier 800×480 phones (both being 15:9) and that we wouldn’t be seeing too many 768p phones going forward. Indeed 920 seems to be the only one so far.

Category: Nokia

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  1. Nokia Lumia 920! - Page 47 - www.hardwarezone.com.sg | October 22, 2012
    • stormtroller says:

      what relevant point you want to see in next Symbian update? i would rather to have N9…o wait the team had been axed.

      • Anonymous says:

        Oh me, i want to see/have a 1.5 dual core krait, 1gb ram, 2000mah (or higher but not much, i don’t want it to look more bulkier and at last pureview v3 41mp camera sensor with low light shot and ois… That’s it, i thinkg it would last for years… Oh my dream :)

        • Andy hate wp says:

          just 1gb ram and a dual core processor clock at 1.5 gh will be blazing fast.no need of fancing tegra 3.sadly,if there 2 core,there will be a problem.app wont run on it and as app for symbian are never design to make use of dual core

          • Anonymous says:

            That 1.5ghz dual core krait can help the processing in the cam, no more delay when shooting the full 38mp and imagine burst shot with 38mp (not necessary just want to imagine the power of dual core krait on symbian)… Hehe… And oh i forgot i want a storage memory of 32gb or 64gb and still expandable with 64gb just like on 808 or maybe upto 128gb… And some more add ons app to the camera… I wanna dream on the dreamed last symbian device… :)

            • andy hate wp says:

              i afraid it was axe.there no delay on 38mp on my 808.android cant even handle 38mp with their quad core processor.

            • Banderpop says:

              While the single core ARM11s seem okay for most things, a change here should improve the web browser so that it’s no longer sluggish on pages that use JavaScript. I wonder how difficult that would be to implement?

              I don’t think it would make much difference to the camera though. The delay while a photo is saved is mainly because of the write-speed of flash memory, and I think the GPU is responsible for compression. Something that may be more useful is a RAM increase, making it possible to add features like a burst-shot mode or handle bracketed HDR shots internally.

              I would love to see an update or app bring burst-shot to the 808 anyway, even if it has to be limited to 5MP or even 3MP for speed or RAM reasons.

        • Chris says:

          I told myself I’ll get a 808 to replace my N8 and use it until 2016 before switching to a new OS.

          But deep down inside, I always want a rugged Symbian smartphone that will last forever (okay, 10 years maybe). I hope Nokia releases a rugged, IP68 (or at least IP67) Symbian as the last Symbian phone.

          I carry two phones anyway. I’d like one of it to be Symbian forever.

          • Andy hate wp says:

            nokia 3110 successor running on symbian?good idea

            • Chris says:

              I’d like that :D

              That 3310 in my family is the only old phone that survives after all these years. Followed by a Sagem MC940 and a Razr V3 in term of longevity, both dead.

          • Anonymous says:

            oh since we’re just dreaming make it a higher IP, hmmmm perhaps IP90 (just hoping that it doesn’t have a bad effect on signals just like xperia go with IP60+ i think)… I want my nokia to do under water shots… =D … And another thing, i also want optical zoom… And i want the same screen on 920 i don’t want amoled screen, too saturated i want to see my shots to look more natural in my phone also that puremotion thing…

            • Chris says:

              LOL.

              I’m not sure if there’s anything over 68.

              What I honestly wanted is a waterproof thingy with Nokia Map on it as well as sports tracker HRM compatible. It’ll have to be able to come with me on marathons, fit on my bicycle, and if one day decide to ditch my car, it needs to be able to mount on a bike and can stand monsoon storm.

              I think there’s Android for that already, but I want Nokia maps on it *pouts*

            • inajoba says:

              First number in ingress protection standsstandsstandsstandsstands for particle ingress (I don’t think
              9 exists) and the second number is for water ingress. A zero for water ingress means that it’s not even drip proof, i.e. useless for outdoor use.

              • anonymous says:

                haha… sorry i actually really don’t that much about the numbering, i thought the larger the number the better… haha…

        • rahul says:

          u bet…want to upgrade my 808 only if there is same or bigger 41mp with OIS and dual core or quad core with 1 or 2 gb of ram…..and it will be better if they make nokia lumia pureview 808 as buly as my 808 with all these features combine nokia pureview 808+nokia lumia 920..with may be 4.7inch screen with full hd resolution….that will be a dream device……people who like slim phones still can go for the lumia devices…..:)

      • Andy hate wp says:

        i want 7 homescreen,a revamp of icons.a pull notification panal that show me tweets,whatsapp and email.i want 4×4 icons grid in menu.3d animations in swiping homescreen.split screen multitasking.pull down notification panal to have more function like nfc on and off,display brightness.a new gallery.the one we have now is ugly and outdated.more widgets and resizable.wishfull thinking

      • * Improvements to the new keyboard (persistent left and right buttons needed)
        * Mail integration into the notifications pull down menu and breathing light.
        * Better API for the notifications pull down menu
        * Multiple selection in Gallery
        * Restore alarm functionality in the Clock so I can set an alarm more than a day in advance.

    • spencer1978 says:

      [Spam removed. Pro Nokia, antiNokia, indifferent. Spam is removed]

  1. Andy hate wp says:

    +1

  2. viktor von d. says:

    ”the exact feature mix would be internally known for weeks if not months”

    just because the engineers and leadership know everything about wp8 doesn’t mean every mid-level manager knows about it

    ”Why not 1280×720 since it makes no difference to sharpness but would make the 920 a lot more ergonomic to hold”

    i think it’s because of the phone design and the curved glass. they did the curved screen for the l900 and said it had issues with stability and resistance.i’m guessing they needed to do the 920 wider to solve the problem and they needed a wider screen but without giving up the high pixel density. i’m guessing that if they drop the current design with the curved screen we will see more standard screens 1280×720.

    i kinda wish they would release a 920 variant but with a siple camera 8mp or 12 without pureview so they can make a slim device with a cheaper price.low light performance is good, but not everybody uses their camera all the time. i barely used from time to time

  3. Anonymous says:

    Yeah i really think dual core will be enough and excellent to symbian and its krait that defeats other quadcore but we dont need quadcore, dual core would be enough to help more for multi tasking, and the remaining hardware will be the same as the one in the existing 808…

    • Andy hate wp says:

      krait are too much.most important is that symbian need to get out of the arm11 shit.a A5 or A8/9 single core will be fast.dual core A5 will aleardy smoke snapdragon s4 pro android smartphone or iphone.dual core a9 the phone will fly.dual core krait and the phone will be gone into outer space.lol.optimixed software is very important.everything is aleardy very fast on my 808 except for the browser as i had not updated to fp2 yet

  4. JD! says:

    I hope that those Nokia folks would know the difference between Symbian^3 and S40!!!

    And hope that Elop will not fire them for saying “there could be“…

  5. aboodesta says:

    did you ask them about whether the uae and ME will get the 920 with the rest of the world or will we have to wait? Also an estimated availability date?

    • Vineet says:

      In the first set of launch markets :)

      Re: Availability date,

      “We will go live as soon as Microsoft does, we’re just waiting on Microsoft”

    • Vineet says:

      In the first set of launch markets :)

      Re: Availability date,

      “We will go live as soon as Microsoft does, we’re just waiting on Microsoft”

  6. aleci says:

    She’s very much forgiven bec. of her N9 :>

  7. Puneet Singh Bajwa says:

    Common Nokia put some efforts and realease a symbian phone with decent specs…..bring back the glorious days of N95…i ll be your first buyer for sure..:)

  8. Puneet Singh Bajwa says:

    Every time there is something with a hope for symbian comments just starts raining…..:p

  9. nn says:

    It’s really hard to believe they thought “optical stabilisation” will get people more interested than “OMG 41Mpx”. Isn’t it basic knowledge that people are attracted by big numbers even if it means worse performance? At least it explains why Elop let 808 go through, he thought it would be a loser.

    I actually don’t find it surprising that Nokia don’t know what will be in WP8 (special partnership!), MS seems to have problems to deliver it on time so some unfinished features simply wont make it to the final release. The release date is set in stone and they will rather publish incomplete and buggy product that let the launch slip.

    • Viipottaja says:

      “At least it explains why Elop let 808 go through, he thought it would be a loser.”

      LOL.

      • GordonH says:

        Come on Viipottaja. Anybody here doubting Mr. Elop needs to be “handled” in a witty way.
        Maybe (if you sense of Humor permits) is it time to “LOL” at the WP7 strategy. Or better yet we should laugh at the people who got fired.

  10. manu says:

    other than a few fanboys on paper no one will buy a mid-high end symbian device these days.
    Good example are device like 701,603 etc.

    • muhs says:

      unless ,the symbian product is a niche that u don’t expect too much out of it. like the 808,its in a niche that u don’t expect alot from it so if it sells well then its good ,if doesn’t sell, no one would argue.
      the 701 was released when no lumia(wp)existed yet so it has to be released any way and it sold not so bad in the first 2 quarters.
      the 603 was a must for developing countries and it was also released just after the announcemnt of lumia 710 and 800, in developing countries, it sold not so bad too(may be not like hotcakes in case of cheap droids) in the first 2 quarters and after fp1 the 603 became or bang for buck and after fp2 its quite cheap for its specs and fp2 gave it more life too

    • GordonH says:

      Please give symbian some updated processors, screen resolution and some positive PR. Then we can talk… right? Or too afraid of Symbian affecting the “WP only” sales pitch.

      • Deep Space Bar says:

        why do you think elop sold off Qt and got rid of symbian and N9…him and micro$oft obviously are scared of Qt and Symbian but speicially Meego why it was really killed that fast…..all that Meego story is BS cover ups

  11. Madratz says:

    imho Nokia should really release another high end Symbian device improving on the 8|0|8.. Sales already proved that with whatever is left of the true diehard fans of Nokia/Symbian that it is a sustainable business to push forward with, alongside their WP varieties..

  12. D Harries says:

    Once the hardware has been set, we just need ongoing code for the next couple of years/forever. I don’t see how my 808 is losing out by not being dual core. It’s just a stat. There’s always room for software improvements/efficiency.

    The 920 won’t get appreciated until it’s been out there a while, and people start comparing and posting up pictures. That’s going to take some time.

    S40 is brilliant, and so is Symbian 3. Some of the apps I’ve seen are very well polished and presented. It’s all in the code

  13. torcida says:

    “PureView 3″ combining PureView Phase 1 and 2 (huge 41MP sensor, nd-filter, F2.0, OIS) – this would definately be my next device!!!

    :)

  14. Eloy Murphy says:

    The more I life the more I think Nokia want to do anything else but not what customers ask for.

    People want 41mpix? they will have 8, not even 12.

    People beg for MeeGo and Symbian? They will be enforced with Windows, unwanted – but who cares. So the sell and incomes comes from S40-60 staff.

    etc. etc. etc. … It will not change anything if I would make a list long as all posts in this blog. They know better and customers opinions does not count.

    • Banderpop says:

      I know. Practially every news story about a Nokia action has been about some change that has gone against my own needs and desires from a phone. Maybe we should start asking for the opposite of what we’d like to see happen…

      Hey, you know what I think would be really cool? Having the look of our phone’s home screens decided for us in Windows Phone! Making every phone really slim so the camera lens is small! Not having HDMI out, TV out, FM Radio or tranmitter, or USB-OTG! Multi-tasking sucks! Sleeping Screen sucks! File Manager sucks! I like all the changes in the new Music Player interface in Belle FP2, especially the smaller album covers with text partially covering them! I’ve randomly decided that I don’t like Swype anymore!

  15. Stuart says:

    If they would make wireless charging back covers for existing symbian devices that would be a nice addition, especially for devices with non-removable batteries.

  16. Deep Space Bar says:

    i think symbian still can work since,they have been working with is all this time i think they shoul devote a symbian only camera phone line since wp is taking too long or just make a symbian versio of all those windows phones to give up options

  17. dkn8 says:

    My dream phone would be Symbian with updated specs in the N950 form factor. Throw in the N8 camera and it would be pure gold imho. Heck, they can even reuse the N8 form and just update the hardware. And leave the full focus camera out. My two cents. Can only dream, right? lol

    • dkn8 says:

      edit: leave the EDOF out, I mean.

    • Reptile says:

      You mentioned the N950, which runs Meego, but then you said you want it to run Symbian? Why do you prefer Symbian over Meego? I always assumed that people liked Meego overall more.. Curious to know how people compare the two..

      • dkn8 says:

        I have nothing against meego. In fact I wish Nokia could of released the N950 to the public. And while their at it, make one for Symbian too. I’m all about choices. Camera bumps and strange designs was a part of Nokia. It seems as though since the iphone came out, our choices as consumers is getting less and less. Rectangle phone with a screen is what we’re left with. I want a killer phone with a killer camera and a keyboard. They could just make one and see how it will sell.

    • Razor says:

      Hell no, harmattan & then meego proper would’ve vastly better in every way possible, apps/ecosystem etc. could’ve way stronger than it is now, negating any concerns that area’s not quite as vibrant as Symbian’s. (Which had been propped-up for years, & given far more chances than maemo/meego was ever given)
      Symbian was always on the way out in the original plan, or at least sliding down to Meltemi+ territory (albeit possibly temporarily).

      • Razor says:

        S^4 “may” have been a different matter entirely longer-term, but in all fairness, Symbian had been given sooo many chances over the years, it was time for Maemo/MeeGo to finally have a chance to shine.
        Tragedy was that chance started waaay too late*, there was a bit of fumble when there was no more wiggle-room for fumbling, & the rest is history for them both, sadly.

        *as did the lion’s-share of resources/focus

        • dkn8 says:

          Symbian had been given chances while it was being crippled at the same time. EDoF camera’s on the 701, E7, etc? Who want’s that after all the autofocus Symbian camera’s before. It felt as though they were trying to hasten Symbian’s downfall. Harmattan would of been awesome to see at least a few models. Let the market decide. Surprise us with choices. Make cool models with 3 or 4 different OS’s. Man, that would of been nice.

          • Razor says:

            No way, that would’ve been madness, two at the most for the top-end, leaving only WP & Harmattan->MeeGo.
            There was already Meltemi/S40 catering for the lower-mid, to bottom-end longer-term, having a 3rd platform for the top-end (or anywhere else) was too much.
            Symbian had way to much legacy crud/code anyway, it was creaking mess, it needed a total re-write, not what was done for S^3+.
            Two for the top to mid-end would’ve been doable, but there were (mostly) political motivations avoiding that.

  18. manu says:

    general public dont really care about symbian.when i talk about symbian to my friends,they will start of all negatives of it like poor touch screen,always hangs ,so slow etc.
    All thanks to nokia and bullsh!t N97 and other s60v5 phones the damage is already done.other than few who used it people still wont believe belle is light year ahead of s60.another problem is apps almost all major app developers have skipped symbian,no more HD games from gameloft.so symbian is already lost the battle to android and ios and nokia played a good role in it.
    And now let it go.

    • deep space bar says:

      this year alone IN CANADA,ONTARIO…Toronto.i;ve met 20 – 40 symbian users…with the N8,E7,C7,5230,C6-00,X7 …and they are all very happy their phones and they do like symbian but the thing is Elop stopped the updates to full Belle in Canada so they are all stuck on Anna but they are still happy with symbian and the Nokia model of their Choice

      I bet if they all ended up getting the second gen symbian^3 phones they would be very surprised with the speed and such

    • arts says:

      my experiences are rather similar.

    • Andy says:

      That all thanks to nokia putting underpowered specs.sony virax dosent seem to lack.is60v5 can mutlitask 62apps but with a Samsung as it has 256mb ram.way better than rubbish n97 with pathetic 128mb ram

  19. dss says:

    image quality is directly related to the size of the pixels. The sensor from the 808 would produce better results if it was cut into 16-20Mpix .. yes, oversampling does an amazing job and the results are amazing, but I think “naturally” bigger pixels would be better.

    I still think that the 808 would produce better low-light results than the 920.

    • Vineet says:

      Yes. Oversampling pretty much only provides lossless zoom if the lighting is very bright (where most cameras click good photos anyway).

      If the lighting in bad, oversampling provides far less benefit than OIS or even larger pixel (light-bucket) sizes. A 20 MP 1/1.2″ or *should* have much better lowlight performance.

      “I still think that the 808 would produce better low-light results than the 920.”

      You mean if the pixel size was reduced? Because otherwise the 920 blows the 808 away.

      • Vineet says:

        Pixel size increased* I mean, pixel “count” reduced.

      • dss says:

        We will see .. I will have a 920 soon, so I will put it up against my 808 right away. From what I’ve seen, I will be very surprised if the 920 is better..

      • AreOut says:

        not sure at all, if you have a steady hand or something to put your phone on, you can prolong exposure and get the same or better result than with 920, only with oversampling :)

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