Growth for Nokia’s S40, Symbian, WP according to statcounter as Apple declines?

| December 27, 2012 | 125 Replies



The growth of Nokia is tied closely to the growth of Lumia and Asha. Lumia at the high end, which may also to give a halo effect to more budget friendly Asha. Surur over at WMPU recognises the importance of Nokia to WP and has been looking closely at statcounter data over the past 30 days or so which shows Nokia’s Symbian, S40 and WP Lumias all seem to be growing.


What I find most interesting from that data is the fact that Windows Phone even shows up on statcounter – as it is counting the stats not just of current new sales but of all other devices. Hence why it takes a bit of number play to get extrapolated statcounter data to match up with sales info. Growth for Symbian is also very much a surprise since the only new device for Nokia is the Nokia 808 PureView.

I’m not quite sure I’d make the same conclusion about Apple just yet though.


Cheers Dan for the tip!


Category: Asha, Lumia, Nokia, Symbian, Windows Phone

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  • Sonny

    If only nokia could have continued making atleast one high end symbian and meego phones each year or so and do what they are doing now with the lumia’s

    • Janne

      I agree that Nokia should have better managed their Symbian and MeeGo transition, perhaps even retaining them in the portfolio in some role, instead of announcing a deadend.

      That said, I do think this graph mostly underlines where the current growth is: cheap phones. This is what is driving the market expansion and is hurting the expensive options, like iPhone. Windows Phone is only now starting to get its cheap options on the market, whereas Nokia their Asha and Symbian offerings (whats left of them) are serving the cheap markets.

      What is noteworthy too is RIM’s downfall, even without doing a Feb11 kind of routine. BlackBerry is being killed on the market, we’ll see if their “MeeGo” (BB10) will be the saviour.

      • “That said, I do think this graph mostly underlines where the current growth is: cheap phones.”

        Well, just about all available statistics tend to disagree with you. 😛 A few years ago smartphones had 10% of the mobile phone market. Today it’s around 50% and still rising. In the “civilised” world smartphone sales already are much higher than dumb phones. S40 is basically just selling in big numbers in India and similar places. My guess is that in let’s say five years or so it’ll be around 80% smartphones and “burner phones” will have 20% of the worldwide market. Make no mistake, S40 sales will eventually tank as Android phones are getting cheaper and cheaper by the day.

        • dont forget nowadays people they use to own more than one phone. here in africa people prefer to own smartphone and feature phone. i dont think that s40 market decline

        • Janne

          I meant cheap *smartphones*, sorry if that was not clear.

          The rise of the smartphone and Android is driven by cheap smartphones.

          Asha touch is basically a cheap smartphone.

          • everlfr

            you are so generous to ashas whence you have been so harsh on symbian to the tune of symbian not really being smartphones whereas ashas to you are.
            and the perverse joy you seem to have on the decline of rim.. all too eager to vindicate elop?

            • Janne

              I am harsh on Symbian because Nokia’s Symbian touch efforts ended up being uncompetitive and that never got fixed – not even in Belle. It needed to go. (But it did need to go in a better way than Nokia accomplished.)

              Asha touch on the other hand seems to be excellent value for money and well competitive in the segment it is in. I have never thought badly of Series 40 (or Series 30), Nokia’s efforts have been pretty consistent and good there, unlike with the bloated Symbian-making machine they had going on.

              As for RIM, for that proxy to vindicate Elop in any way would at lest require BB10 to fail. It is way too soon to say whether or not BB10 fails.

              • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                Very true.

                My 808 has probably the latest Symbian OS and it’s still not very smooth compared to the iPhone.

                Steve Jobs claimed in early 2007 that Apple was 5 years ahead of the competition with the iPhone. While that was probably just normal marketing talk, he was pretty much telling the truth.

                Yes, that was about user experience, not about half baked features.

                Now Nokia has an opportunity to take the market back with the WP8. As an competitor to the iPhone, it’s really promising. Something Symbian is not.

            • Bloob

              Symbian has “always” been a smartphone, just not a very good one ( for developers or users ). Asha is easy to develop for, reliable, quite easy to use, and feature-rich.

              • Janne

                I think Nokia’s Symbian was hard to develop and buggy, but it was quite competitive and fine before the touch era. It did well on the market too, as we remember. It is he app and touch revolutions that caugt Nokia’s Symbian efforts with their pants down…

                • Noki

                  Yeah symbian was dead, but you dont kill it publicly, you fade it off saying some BS like perfect migration to “Foo”…using the same services and bla bla bla, so you can have a smooth sales transition, happy users, happy developers etc etc etc.
                  If you simply kill it you get alot of unhappy users via the fact that they just bought a dead end. And extremely unhappy developers for having invested time and money in to a dead end.
                  If only nokia would have not terminated publicly its OS’s it could have done so, mostly doing the same exact things it did, maybe releasing an n9 successor by now and 2 more low end Symbians. it could still have lunched all the Lumias.

                  I bet what ever you want that nokia would have not lost half of what it did if it had followed this path even Lumias would have sold better.

                  • tom

                    Did anyone notice that WP growing slower than symbian? Way to go WP.

                    • dss

                      Its not growing slower than Symbian.. there are still way more Symbian phones out there than WP based ones. If all those Symbian phones went online using the native Symbian browser.. you will see a spike in stats like that.

      • Noki

        Rim is very noteworthy seeing that its now number 3, and BB6/7 is far far worse than symbian was 2 years ago.(only the mail and the bbm apps make a difference).

        What you notice is that they like nokia, had a huge fan base that were wiling to stick with it, buying a BB7 today is plain crazy with BB10 around the corner, and still its vastly outselling Nokia much more modern and effective Lumia Range.

        I believe we mostly agree this days Janne, that nokia did things in the worse possible manner and that going all in WP wad far worse implication that what they anticipated, and that it was a terrible deal.

        • Janne

          I believe we mostly agree this days Janne, that nokia did things in the worse possible manner and that going all in WP wad far worse implication that what they anticipated, and that it was a terrible deal.

          We agree somewhat, I think February 11th was a mistake (all the badwill etc.), Symbian transition was mismanaged and first Lumia generation were quite nice products but failed to ignite a market.

          I do think they are delivering great products with Windows Phone, though, and that they did succeed in starting an app ecosystem for Windows Phone and to some extent exclusively for Lumia as well.

          I also think Nokia’s location initiatives, NSN and Asha touch have mostly succeeded, as has their brand/design revamp. I do think it is now a cooler Nokia, with more innovative and interesting products on the market than at any point since the N95 glory days.

          To me, Lumia 920 is super-exciting, as is the potential of Windows 8 ecosystem overall. I do like the tiles a lot, but not just the tiles, the hubs, panels all that stuff that makes “Metro” more innovative and better than others.

          That said, the necessary market penetration for Windows Phone is yet to be witnessed. That can not be denied. Could Nokia have fared better overall with different tactics? I’m sure they could have.

      • tom

        “What is noteworthy too is RIM’s downfall, even without doing a Feb11 kind of routine. BlackBerry is being killed on the market”

        That is totally false, or misleading at least. RIM doing better than Nokia, financially and selling smart phones(volume). RIM does not have a dumb phone division and that’s where Nokia is doing well. May be you can’t accept the fact that Nokia isn’t able to sell as many smart phones as RIM with your favorite shiny new OS WP. Yes, that’s right, RIM did sell more phones with that shitty old OS(not BB10) that Nokia with WP last quarter.

        RIM should have prioritized BB10 ahead of playbook, they wasted valuable time with playbook. Still, I think BB10 has a decent chance. Meego was what BB10 is 2 years ahead, and that’s eternity in smart phone world now.

        • dss

          That is partially because they have more models available on more networks in the NAM markets… I don’t think they stand a chance against the WP armada in the long run.

          • Noki

            “I don’t think they stand a chance against the WP armada in the long run.” talking about Nokia?

            RIM is not afraid of WP line no one is, RIM fears android and IOS and worse RIM is afraid of loosing the BIS signatures (think its a dead end Business model)

            • JG Smartypants

              You don’t talk to many RIM people, do you? I do. Put a few beers in them and they tell you the truth. “it’s not right to ask whether we are scared of Nokia, it’s whether we are scared of Microsoft. And yeah, they’re a big enterprise threat”

        • Janne

          tom: I don’t agree RIM sells more smartphones as a I count Asha devices as smartphones – at least the new touch ones, although some of the qwerty models with Exchange support are clearly targeting BB. Nokia has deliberately moved a lot of their old Symbian product lines to Asha with the qwrerty and touch initiatives. And really, BB7 vs. Asha, we’re talking about quite similar products.

          It is true BB7 has been selling more than WP, just like Symbian. Although both have also been going down and hard, the other one without any kind of Feb11 too… As for WP, it is hard to establish a new ecosystem, BB7 and Symbian were the kings of yesteryear and they still have long tails that keep them selling some. WP is the new kid on the block, the challenger, and clearly that shows.

          By the way, I think at the moment everyone but Apple and Samsung are being killed on the market. Let’s see if Nokia or RIM can reverse their fortunes.

          • tom

            I have nothing against counting Asha as smart phones. If asha is smart phone, and clearly they are selling and profitable where as Lumia is making huge losses, why not improve the OS and build a smart phone platform on that? If OS can’t be improved, build a new OS with a compatibility layer. What’s the point of losing money on Lumia/WP?

            • GordonH

              “What’s the point of losing money on Lumia/WP?”

              To create a third ecosystem hhmmm nice thought right.

              But the catch is Nokia is losing money to create a third ecosystem for an MS comeback in the mobile space.

            • Janne

              Obviously Asha touch can’t conquer the all-important high-end. The point with Lumia is to address that. Will it succeed? That remains to be seen.

              • tom

                They are not going to win high ed with that strategy. No one has with that strategy. Going head to head is a bad strategy against any incumbent, iPhone/Apple in this case. No one has successfully done that. Android would be dead in graveyard if they had competed directly with iPhone with a single or few handsets. The reason Android won the market was they targeted the market Apple left out initially, grow to a critical mass and then compete with Apple directly in same segment.

                To survive, Nokia need to find a niche, grow there and broaden the scope once they are little popular. I think better strategy will be meego/meltemi with a asha touch compatibility layer, targeting India/China/Europe with low/mid end. Convert Asha customers to new OS and grow from there.

                Going head to head with Apple/Google, they do not stand a chance.

                • Noki

                  And you just enunciated WP biggest problem, it was designed to be an iPhone killer because of pure profit envy. Result it failed, only recently and because of nokia specific needs and what nokia really is in spite of what elop might have thought it was do we see wp trying to be more of a wide spectrum OS, I say “try” IMO it will never be that it was not designed that way…

    • Cloud

      i always refer to AIR clip leaked from nokia…..
      shame…….symbian and meego had the potential to shine..

  • Janne

    I think the Apple conclusion is not without merit. I think iPhone 5 really is widely seen as lackluster compared to an ever-improving competition. Their ecosystem and strong brand of course still sells gazillions, but I have personally witnessed genuine move away from iPhone (towards, say, Lumia 920) and I doubt I am an lone with that experience. I’m not expecit iPhone sales to crash or anything, but a subtle undercurrent of performance below past expectations – I think it shows in Apple stock price losses too, so the market somewhat agrees…

    • dss

      You are underestimating the customer satisfaction and the “return purchase” rate that Apple enjoys…

  • WP is lying just about flat and Android is still going strong, as expected. It’s a surprise though to see S40 doing that well as I’d expect that cheap Androids would’ve taken over the low-end market by now, it’ll eventually happen though. Nokia’s Q4 will not be pretty as you can hardly make any money on cheap S40s and with such low WP sales the loss will be massive.

    • Janne

      Actually, Nokia has played their cards surprisingly well in the low-end. The Asha touch product is competitive with cheap Android. They might surprise us positively.

      I agree the WP results probably won’t be pretty with such a limited WP8 Lumia availability and the cheap phones 505/510/620 being mostly delayed into Q1/2012. But we’ll see what their guidance looks like, that’s probably the more telling part on it.

      • Yes S40 is doing REALLY well atm but that will not make much money to Nokia as they’re very cheap with razor thin margins. And with Symbian gone now only smartphones left are WP which aren’t selling very well, at least not yet. Nokias loss in Q4 will be MASSIVE, if not MS is throwing even more cash on them. 🙂

      • Noki

        “Actually, Nokia has played their cards surprisingly well in the low-end.”

        NO NO NO S40 is a technological dead end, the fantastic sales only prove what the UI/UX experience introduced in the N9 could be and how people would accept it.
        S40 is as good as dead from a technological POV, And I think Elop never expected it to do so well. Meltemi for witch the UI/UX you see on the Ashas was created was supposed to bring a future to nokia in that segment…

        • viktor von d.

          yes the s40 line will lead to a dead end. that is why i believe it only has aprox 2 years left on the market, at that point whatever version of wp will be able to run on low end hardware.
          it’s probably why they decided to abandon meltemi. 2 much money to maintain and develop a ecosystem around it, only for it to be available 2-3 years

          • Noki

            I believe it was simply lack of vision from Elop (he expected that S40 price range sales to plunge just like the smartphone area). Meltemi was cheep to develop, I think Elop entered in panic mode and wanted to make investors happy by showing layoff numbers.

            • Spede oli aliarvostettu

              What was Meltemi supposed to do what Android was not able to do in the future?

              • Noki

                Nothing, that’s the thing, it could do pretty much anything android does on significant lower speck hardware.

                S40 cant really compete with android in the near future, its an ancient OS with no decent development paradigm.

                • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                  There will be 30€ Android phones very soon. And it won’t take that long until those are smooth.

                  What would have happened to Meltemi after that?

                  • Noki

                    Remain competitive (meltemi was for the most part an android just more efficient because it did not used a virtual machine like android does.)

                    (you guys have the worse argumentation skills, do you realize of how terrible that argument is to WP low margin area fans???)

                    • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                      So, are you sure JIT tech is not evolving enough to catch up with native code?

                      Not having the virtual machine means that Meltemi would have been lacking the Android software libarary. Now that is a real problem.

                    • Noki

                      @Spede oli aliarvostettu

                      “So, are you sure JIT tech is not evolving enough to catch up with native code?”

                      It will on average never be as efficient as native code. Native code can hallways be optimized, for a specific target.

                      “not having the virtual machine means that Meltemi would have been lacking the Android software libarary.”
                      not sure what you mean with this, but WP also lacks dalvick.

                    • GordonH

                      These Elop fans “pretend” not to understand the technically arguments.
                      They do their best by taking valid points into endless circles.

                    • Janne

                      I get why Meltemi could have been great and more optimal.

                      What I was always suspect of (even before it was cancelled), is how is Nokia going to develop an app ecosystem for it. It was a third OS for Nokia, Series 40 at least builds off from that strong legacy and the Java apps, Meltemi would have been Qt and quite alone in the lineup after the Lumia decision.

                      If only Nokia would have had the boldness to go all out on Linux years prior. We’d have smooth MeeGo and Meltemi now, Series 40 rocking some basic phones and no sight of Symbian. Nokia could have outdone the iPhone, they had all the technology for that, they just lacked the management vision…

                    • Noki

                      “is how is Nokia going to develop an app ecosystem for it.” by being mostly compatible with what the industry has this days, unlike S40 btw…
                      Games for example, its would be 99% the same setup as IOS Andrid BB10 etc (not like WP that AFIK does not suport opengl).

                      Could in desperation mode introduce a compatible layer (a dalvick) to android like BB10 and Jolla.

                      Had its set of modern widely used in the industry development toolkit Qt (number 1 toolkit in the booming embedded area).

                      Its not even funny to compare the S40 to meltemi.

                    • Janne

                      Noki: I’m sure Meltemi would have been far more advanced than Asha touch. And some of the ideas you present are of course valid, we’ll see how BB10 fares.

                      However, it would still have meant a third ecosystem for Nokia to harbour in addition to the already existing S40 and Lumia. Meltemi made more sense under the old Qt strategy.

                    • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                      It’s probable that Meltemi would have been more optimal compared to Android. However, what would have been the difference on 30€ phone? If Android requires hardware worth of 30,50€ when Meltemi phone does the same job with 30€, the difference is not that big.

                      Asha is competing the cheap Android phones. Not Windows Phone. Nokia would have been alone with Meltemi.

                      It appears that you consider Meltemi as some kind of miracle OS not requiring developers like every other OS does. I would like to know how Nokia was supposed to develop Meltemi without lots of developers and without using too much money for the development.

                      Qt development costs money. Adding Meltemi support costs money. Somehow you seem to think that this is not the case and Meltemi support would have been almost free.

                      Asha may not be very good to develop for but I really would like to hear why developers would code for Qt instead of Dalvik when Dalvik is a viable platfor already supported by vast amount of modern phones. This is not the case with Qt.

                    • Janne

                      Upside for Asha development is that there already is a somewhat vibrant development community and in any case long history of MIDP Java mobile app development. So there is an ecosystem for Series 40 in place, to which is easier to add key apps (like Angry Birds) with deals, than to build an ecosystem from scratch for a new platform… Nokia is already doing that with Microsoft for Lumia, doing it for a third platform would have been hard.

                      I noted this already in my post about future of Nokia’s low-end here on MNB, before Meltemi was axed. I doubted how Nokia would build an ecosystem for it… turns out, they chose not to – maybe for that exact reason?

                    • Noki

                      “somewhat vibrant development community”

                      HOHOHOHOOO heheheheh Jane read that and I dare you to not smile 🙂

                      “(like Angry Birds)” I’m sure they are not using any of the legacy java stuff to pull it off :).

                      @Spede oli aliarvostettu. your arguments are terrible for WP BTW, but Qt is great with more than a large pool of developers there is a reason Rim chose it and Jolla, dalvick wile being ok targets a rather limited space android that’s it, embedded area is off something that needs a bit more complexity and optimization (vital in low end) will require c++ that is a the core of Qt wille in android if you want platform integration wile using c++ its not simple at all.

                    • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                      My arguments for WP competing against low end Androids surely must have been bad in that message because there were none. I was talking about Asha or Meltemi competing against low end Androids.

                      Qt seems to have lots of developers, but there must be something seriously wrong with it. There has been lots of Qt developers for years but only very few mobile Qt applications. There are some, but compared to Android and iOS, there are extremely few Qt applications.

                      I’m not even sure if WP is beating mobile Qt applications what it comes to the amount of those. Now, if you think WP applications is a failure, what does that make Qt applications?

                      Qt seems to be a religion. People are believing it has to succeed in mobile because they believe it’s going to succeed.

                    • Noki

                      @Spede oli aliarvostettu
                      First let me congratulate you on agreeing with me on the nonsense WP is on low end devices…

                      Secondly about Qt app ecosystem or what ever you want to cal it…

                      Not to overly defend it its has its merits and its flaws, but seriously comparing amounts of apps made with Qt to android??? or WP??? its a skew argument… there a few thousand in symbian and N9 many were being created before the plug being puled off…. RIM is going to debut its new BB10 around Qt with over 70.000 new apps many of those Qt/cascades based…

                      No mater what, people will create apps for what ever pays off, most people I know prefer to do programming in IOS objective C rather than the java dalvick targeted stuf, but still they do it because there is a market for it, sure its ugly language but can get the job done, and delivers the profit.

                      A developer or a firm of developers take this things in to consideration, fun good languages=more productivity so good, having no sales on the product = bad, betting resources on a declared dead OS double bad…So wille there are not as many qt mobile apps as say android, there more than a few and in impressive numbers considering how few devices are in the market using it on the mobile based consumer market….

                      On embedded its a completely different story, but you probably don’t know much about that market.

                    • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                      Yes, this is not about WP but Android killing the low end. I’m not saying that WP is able or it’s not able to compete in the low end, when the time comes. For the foreseeable future it’s about Android.

                      As you said, there are few thousand applications made for the mobile Qt. We don’t even know if those applications were 100% Qt. If not, that will make compiling more difficult.

                      BB10 with 70 000 applications? Are you trying to say that those applications are already made with Qt? If not, most of those Qt applications are not yet implemented. There is very little to convert from the current Qt applications if there are only few thousand mobile Qt applications currently available.

                      When talking about App revenues, iOS has been the number one. The second was Android and after that combined sales from Series 40, S60, Qt and the rest (whatever Nokia was offering) applications and content. Really, content. At some point it was even claimed that Ovi store was second in revenues, but that was not true. It was second in sales, but not in revenues because most revenues from Android applications were coming from ads.

                      So, only a small fragment of mobile application revenues came from mobile Qt software.

                      That’s not something able to really push a new platform with a vast amount of Qt applications. There were just too few mobile Qt applications to make the Qt to support a new platform trying to compete with Android on the low end.

                    • Janne

                      Noki: I still think that especially when it comes to locally relevant apps in third world markets, Series 40 has a “somewhat vibrant developer community”. It was a lot easier to just boost that for Asha touch than to build a new ecosystem for Meltemi.

                    • Noki

                      @Janne hehehe you know that you can run those sort off java application any ware not only s40 but anywhere.. including Linux you just need the java virtual machine and you are done. If it that was the issue then that one would be easy to fix even in a complementary way..

                    • Janne

                      Noki: Whilst that is true, I think you are oversimplifying my argument that there is a somewhat vibrant – or perhaps active is a better word – developer community for Java-based Asha development already. This is true especially for certain emerging markets. So there are those efforts already and those can reach the very lowest levels of price, add to that Lumia on the top-end, nurturing native Meltemi development would have required continuing with the Qt-based developer efforts, a third app-development platform for the new Nokia. Sure you could run MIDP Java on Meltemi and call it a day, but I doubt that would have been the point. There would have been Java, Qt and WP then.

                      Anyway, my point was that Meltemi made far more sense during the unified Qt strategy where eventually Qt would have been everywhere except the lowest MIDP Java. Now the plan is that WP is everywhere, except the lowest MIDP Java. By the way, I liked the promise of the Qt strategy. Just abhorred Nokia’s execution of it, which went… well, as we know.

            • Viipottaja

              “cheep to develop” – do you have any specific data on that?

              • Noki

                just the people that worked there, have told me so..Nokia stooped the huge amounts off outsourcing it had for meego (mostly because the that work was done). so it was mostly a indoors OS.
                PLus for much of the technological back bone was done externally by other companies, developers, etc example the kernel, or the sound stack, opensource is great that way lowers the price tag hugely specially if you plan on using standards…

                In many ways from what I know meltemi was not much larger than Jolla, aka just what Nokia got from Rim the other day would have lasted for years of development.
                1/100 of what Nokia spent on Lumia advertising would have been enough 2.

                • Janne

                  FWIW, I too would have loved to see Meltemi. It is a shame it didn’t come out.

                  Although Meltemi would have required continued investment in Qt too, I guess.

                  • Noki

                    Qt was not a profit loss operation, main reason some one bought it, it was profitable wen Nokia bought it, no reason to stop being afterwords, again its not that big of an operation.

            • JG Smartypants

              This is factually incorrect. Meltemi had become expensive to develop (and that’s without the cost of building an ecosystem around it), was over budget and over a year behind schedule. I know more Nokia employees than you. If you disagree with me, you are wrong.

              • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                It’s a good story if there was just a handful of people forking at it. It may not be true but it’s a great story.

                It’s also very convenient to forget how many people were working on Symbian. That way it’s easy to claim that Nokia got those OS’s free of charge.

                • Janne

                  My God, it still baffles me that Nokia had more people working on Symbian than Microsoft and Apple on their operating systems… probably combined… and look at the results.

                  • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                    Some Symbian fanatic could try to explain why they needed so much coders for Symbian, if the OS was so great.

                    Yes, I know it can multitask but if I could choose, I would pick Asha’s OS for my 808 any time.

                    No multitasking and no freezing!

                    It’s better to have quality over quantity when talking about OS features.

                    • Ehhh

                      Wait i read all the things you guys wrote till now and kept quite.

                      But a statement as crappy as that. Replace a 808 with Asha. Please… grow up… An Asha is no match for a 808. Sure it can beat older Symbians from the previous S60v5. But the 808 with FP2 you have got to be kidding me right.

                      Dont just spew out things to support your argument.

        • Janne

          Noki: Series 40 may be squeezed ou eventually, but I don’t think we are anywhere near that yet. It is pretty robust low-end ecosystem and likely to have a good couple of years at least, with the renewed excitement around Asha touch (plus all the Nokia services they are bringing to it) and obviously the still-necessary (although obviously diminishing) market for basic/feature phones beneath that.

          • Noki

            The great problem is that I don’t see Microsoft giving away an OS, so Nokia will never be able to push any WP down the Ashas price range. Nokia profit per device is less than the licence fee for wp.. WP was not made for that model, WP was made thinking about the IOS model… That’s what Microsoft is after, Nokia was always a vertical product portfolio company, with expensive low sealing devices that created brand value, and mass seeling value for money devices.

            • Janne

              I do get that concern, althought developing Series 40 costs Nokia money too (and Symbian cost them heaps of money) so it isn’t like that software is free either. Also, I don’t think it is far fetched that Nokia has negotiated or will negotiate suitable licensing pricing for lower end products with Microsoft.

              In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Microsoft is giving WP7.x pracitically for free for the 505/510. Maybe not, but in June Nokia did report they have found new ways to push WP to lower hardware and finding license cost solutions might be one element…

              • Noki

                Microsoft as never been a charity institution. WP7 cost money to maintain its in Microsoft interest to kill it ASP.
                Any deal Microsoft offers to Nokia will have to be offered to other OEM’s.
                Nokia knew this, and so does Microsoft.

                • Janne

                  We don’t know what was negotiated into those Nokia/Microsoft contracts and what perhaps was re-negotiated in June when Nokia sharpened their strategy.

                  I think everyone who thought WP7 would die fast was surprised to see Nokia 505/510, WP7.8, the customizations Nokia has been able to add to WP7.8 and the roadmap that suggests there may be WP7.9 still in the cards…

                  So, it is not all that black and white. Nokia has special status due to the contract they made. If they made a good one, they did take the WP7.x situation into account then and there. Microsoft of course is no charity, but building a strong WP ecosystem is important for their business and they clearly have been willing and able to make bold deals with Nokia for that to happen.

                  I think Nokia for its part is making the best of an unoptimal WP7.x situation. These updates that are now coming will appease the first generation owners while guaranteeing them a shot at selling low-end smartphones for the next year or year and a half, until WP8 level hardware comes down in price enough.

                  • Noki

                    “I think everyone who thought WP7 would die fast”

                    the reason we think that is not that its impossible to launch new phones with it, its because it does not make any sense, if the wp7 phones so far fail to sell how come new ones??

                    plus it suffer from the same problem Windows RT does AKA it looks like its big brother but it cant ran apps made for the big brother. this is frustrating to users and turns in to bad mouthing.

                    “Microsoft of course is no charity, but building a strong WP ecosystem is important for their business”

                    WP7 does not contribute to that, in wp8 they changed the way things are done and the wp7 way of doing thing is dead, its in Microsoft best interest to kill wp7 asp… Heck I’m mostly sure Microsoft is able to offer a better deal on wp8 licence fees than in wp7.

                    So wile its entirely possible to launch new phones with wp7 it does not make any sense, unless its for some mythical new WPAsha line that I’m fairly sure it will never be real.

                    • Janne

                      Not that you don’t have a point, you do (and I agree the WP7 situation is unoptimal), I think WP7 does contribute to things more than you think. Outside a few incompatibilities, WP8 runs WP7 apps and especially for many productivity apps creating one version that runs on both makes sense for developers at least for a while.

                      Also, while I agree the first Lumia generation failed to set the market on fire, I’m not sure WP7.8 devices will fail similarly. They might, of course, but it may be bit of an apples and oranges thing too. It is a different scenario now.

                      One thing, for example, is that Lumia is now much more of a household name than it was a year ago. The first Lumia generation did create a brand. Also, a year has passed and a lot of apps, new features etc. have come along maturing the WP7 offering quite a bit.

                      The second thing, the new WP7.8 Lumia generation (call it G1.5) targets a much cheaper price group, where the needs are different and the offering arguably far more competitive. It is possible the shortcomings of WP7.8 (compared to WP8) don’t matter as much that group of buyers, who just want a slick experience, good brand, great design and maybe Angry Birds Star Wars.

                      Third, Lumia WP7.8 devices too get to enjoy from a potential halo effect of WP8, W8 and Lumia overall now. If these people have Windows 8, getting a “Metro” phone might be far more easier once they are accustomed to that. Purchasers can buy into that at much cheaper pricespoints. Just like an Audi R8 sells plenty of Audi A1s. 🙂

            • Spede oli aliarvostettu

              There will be a day when WP hardware will cost very little. Hardware is going to be more powerful and cost less.

              Symbian requiring very little resources seems to be a myth. Just try to compare iOS and Symbian with a similar hardware.

              How smooth were Nokia 5800 and iPhone 3G back in 2008? How did iPhone 3GS and N97 compare back in 2009? Was N8 really smoother compared to the iPhone 3GS back in 2010?

              • Noki

                “There will be a day when WP hardware will cost very little.”
                By that time what we consider smartphones will do things much more complex and wp7/8 will be completely outdated.

                Just imagine someone 6 years ago showing what ashas can do. It would be completely high end Superphone, as would the hardware it runs on.

      • Noki

        “I agree the WP results probably won’t be pretty with such a limited WP8 Lumia”
        Janne think you have to come to terms with the facts, NO one (outside the Finland) wants WP, if symbiam manages to outsell WP this quarter, then I think there is no more possible discussion. Any symbian for sale today was declared dead 2 years ago wp7 is still warm in is coffin, in no way should symbian devices outsell the wp7 Lumia range (that you can get really cheep now) let alone the WP7, WP8 combo. Unless we come to terms with reality and accept that very few people want WP.

        • viktor von d.

          you can’t compare imo all the way sales of wp with symbian. most symbian handesets are a hell of a lot cheaper than wp running devices. even the low end lumias like the 610 are damn expensive. and who knows how many symbian models are still being made today. i don’t think it’s just the 808 or touchscreen phones.

          anyways i have to agree with you for the second time this week. barely anyone wants wp, for a simple reason, it’s not established, it doesn’t have that many apps, and most of the smartphone owners are already neck high with android,ios and even blackberry. and some people, probably the majority doesn’t even know it exists or what it is exactly.
          for the same reason you can say that nobody will fall head over heels with any new platform, be it meego,jolla,bb 10 or whatever else. only the tech enthusiasts seem to give attention and are receptive to try new things..

          anyways i am very curious, if wp8 fails in 2013,nokia will probably launch one more generation of devices at next year nokia world, but after that what will they do?
          -develop a whole new os and keep wp devices in parallel untill it is ready? – probably not cause it will still have the app problem that haunts wp these days and no ecosystem of their own.
          -aquire jolla, maybe they were the plan b all along, and by that time sailfish os gatheres enough developer interest and apps?
          -go with android? or make their own version like amazon even if that cuts them off from google ecosystem?

          seems like a very murky future if wp fails for them

          • Noki

            Honestly, I don’t see much of a future for Nokia, the only reason nokia as not been totally dismantlement was the way better than expected Asha sales, (the ip portfolio is a reason for and hostile takeover). and the network business is a brake even operation good for alienation in a takeover scenario.

            So the wild card is mostly ashas and how well they will do in the coming quarter…will they provide enough cash revenue for nokia to keep pushing WP? OR will it decline and force Nokia to be sold for dismantling?…

            As for wp future??? don’t see much if numbers are in line with what some people and numbers indicate, its dead and microsoft will reinvent it along with the entire metro line. (me IMO they need to create different OS’s striped away from the Microsoft/windows brand like they did for the XBox) their current line of OS products is complete nonsense. mixing desktop and touch and trying to leverage windows into consumers as if consumers had a love afair with windows brand….

          • incognito

            It’s a myth that Symbian still outsells Lumias – even after almost 2 years of it being declared dead and with all the marketing push of Lumias – just because there are cheap-ass Symbian-based devices on a level to which Lumias cannot descend to. Check Q3’12 results, namely ASP for the Lumias and Symbians – they are almost equal. If you take into the account that Nokia at this point certainly pays more to Microsoft for WP than Accenture for maintaining what little is there left of Symbian – I wouldn’t be surprised that Symbian devices are still making more money for Nokia than whole of the Lumia endeavor. Kind of ironic, tho.

            There are plenty of reasons why WP doesn’t sell, but mainly its the interface which is extremely polarizing (regular Joes) and a lackluster ecosystem (more tech savvy people). A complete lack of goodwill towards Microsoft doesn’t help it either. In such situation, I’m not really surprised that Symbian fairs better in the eyes of your average Joe – it’s familiar, it provides features which people got used to but are lacking from WP, and lets not forget that data plans are not all that cheap in most of the world and no non-stop data renders WP into a less useful system than ye’ olde feature phone.

            As for what if WP flops, and I’m almost certain it will at least in the time period which might concern Nokia – Nokia goes bust. While they still could play it smarter a year ago and had more wiggle room to repair the damage of a disastrous strategy, now those times have passed. If they don’t succeed with WP they don’t have anything to get back to, they’ve ingeniously burned every single bridge they could. Sad, really, but they’ve been warned time and again, if only they didn’t ignore what they’ve called `the naysayers`…

            • Janne

              It is a myth for Q3 only, but you are right about Q3 of course. It is right that WP8 announcment hurt the fledgling WP ecosystem in Q3 more than Symbian was anymore hurt by its oncoming obsolescence. Symbian was once the most popular smartphone platform, it does have a long tail clearly. It is a familiar product for many people and it still has a larger market availability (countries-wise) than Windows Phone.

              • Noki

                “and it still has a larger market availability (countries-wise) than Windows Phone.” this is BS sorry but it is.

                • Janne

                  No it isn’t. Symbian is still widely availabile on numerous third-world markets where Windows Phone isn’t (at least in Q3), plus much of the Middle East for example. Did South America finally get Lumia by Q3? I guess some of it. Maybe some western markets Symbian isn’t so widely available anymore, but it wasn’t selling in them pretty much at all before that either so it doesn’t really matter. And when many markets finally got WP7 Lumia in Q3, it was obsoleted by the WP8 announcement…

                  The global ramp-up of Windows Phone has been painfully slow to watch. There have been a lot of places where S40, Symbian devices (and perhaps N9) were the Nokia options available. Only from a western perspective has Lumia taken Nokia’s sales presence. Now, of course, this is changing all the time, although we are again witnessing another slow ramp-up with WP8, with too many markets only getting WP8 Lumias in Q1/2013.

                  Painful, painful…

                  • Noki

                    Janne think you are staring to elude yourself, honestly open nokia local websites, here you will see Lumias in all countries, try to find Simbians in the portfolio… buried under pages of ashas lumias and feature-phones

                    • Janne

                      Yes, that is the case more and more, and surely Lumia will exceed Symbian in availability soon, if it already hasn’t. However, Q3 was only seeing the Lumia launch in some countries, South America was just coming along and Middle East and Africa were mostly without Lumia, as were some other markets as well.

                      Here is Nokia Egypt for you for example:


                      Asha, Symbians, N9, no Lumia at all.

                    • Noki

                      @Janne but shouldn’t those relatively small markets be balanced out but the much larger markets flooded with cheep heavily market Lumias?

                    • Janne

                      Noki: Maybe they should, because we agree that first generation Lumias failed on the markets. It isn’t really about “what should have happened”, I was more looking at “what happened”.

                      We’ll take more about what should happen after the Q4 results. 😉

        • Janne


          Janne think you have to come to terms with the facts, NO one (outside the Finland) wants WP, if symbiam manages to outsell WP this quarter, then I think there is no more possible discussion. Any symbian for sale today was declared dead 2 years ago wp7 is still warm in is coffin, in no way should symbian devices outsell the wp7 Lumia range (that you can get really cheep now) let alone the WP7, WP8 combo. Unless we come to terms with reality and accept that very few people want WP.

          I think it is very easy to disprove the argument that “NO one (outside the Finland) wants WP”. In fact, I know plenty such people. 🙂 But I do agree the first Lumia generation failed on the market and that any Windows Phone 8 success is unproven.

          It is hard to break into a market. There is a lot more on play than just the question what people want. There is the question of ecosystem lock, app availability, familiarity questions and getting the retail and operators to suggest a new, sort of unproven product instead of the familiar, safer options.

          But I also have come to terms with the fact that both Nokia’s high-end (WP8 Lumia) and lower-end (Lumia 505/510) have been seriously constrained and/or delayed during Q4 resulting in less sales than probably would have otherwise happened. So, come Q4 results we must look at all this, plus their Q1 guidance, and then we can see how well or not Lumia is doing.

          I do think WP is inherently wantable, not unwantable. I think it is an excellent product, especially in the Lumia form with all the goodness Nokia adds to the package. But being a great product is just a first step, it doesn’t guarantee market success.

          • Spede oli aliarvostettu

            If someone says that WP8 is not wanted by anyone, you should remember that the same was said about the iPhone when it was released. It lacked too many features, they told us. The second model added only 3G and 3GS was just unimportant update. As were 4, 4S and 5.

            The iPhone 4 had even some antenna issues and in reality, it hardly hit the sales and the problem was easily fixed with a protective cover.

            People claimed that 4S was a real disappointment for even the people using Apple’s phones. The same was said about iPhone 5. Those products were never supposed to succeed if the forums and blogs were to believe.

            Now the same people are claiming that WP8 just can’t succeed because it lacks features Symbian has. Now how am I supposed to believe those guys when they were telling the same about the iPhone?

            • Noki

              The difference is that the iPhone sales were spectacular and ever increasing.. WP sales are…. sad!

              WP problem is mostly terrible UI/UX the tiles (even if better in WP8) are not that interesting to users, its a boring picture of your life in monochromatic simplified fashion that fails to excite consumers (most), on top of a overly typographical design language, again not something people relate 2.
              Also Microsoft/Windows brand is not very well seen by general public, it was the thing you had in your computer in the office that crashed sometimes.

              • Francis

                True, it is the Metro UI problem. Many people don like it.

                • No, the UI is different that is what the problem with the UI is. People have grown accustomed to what both iOS and Android offer and that is either icon based or widget based interaction, both are highly similar.

                  WP is different, people tend to go with what they know. That coupled with people being satisfied with either Android or iOS and there you have poor WP sales. If I were in the Android camp right now on a recent top end device, why would I switch to WP? Only for looks or maybe HW. Other than that MS offers nothing more than Google does, maybe better integration but try to sell that to the masses that mostly don’t even use it.

                  With iOS becoming boring and Android being the same essentially people are looking at something else. Also, most people are locked in 2 year contracts so can’t switch whenever a new device comes out. Mostly these people will be happy with the SGS2 they bought a year back and who could blame them. Switching will take time especially in the current market, although it is still debatable whether WP is switch material.

                  @Noki, don’t confuse UI with UX. The UI might be terrible with the tiles and large fonts, but the UX is pretty consistent throuhout the OS eventhough it does leave room for improvement.
                  UX wise only iOS and WP make sense, Android is a mixed bad especially with all the skins floating around. Mostly the tiles might put off people, but mostly I do agree it is the MS and Windows nomenclature they chose for it. It does suck.

                  • Noki

                    You don’t see me defending Andrid UX do you (personally I agree with you its utter crap).

                    The problem about the WP UX is not that its bad, its that its to evolved, its not what Joe dumb user is used 2, it relies on what to dumb users are cognitive loopholes… WP is a classic example IMO of design for designers by designers…
                    I say UI/UX because they go hand in hand, there are UI hits that are fundamental to the UX as there are UX patterns that have impact on the UI.

              • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                So, when did Nokia’s WP sales decrease YoY? I belie that has not yet happened.

                WP has had more unit sales when compared to the iPhone’s unit sales when it was released.

                WP had less market share, but I’ve heard that market share just doesn’t matter when we talk about Nokia. Remember that Nokia was losing market share in Q4 2010 when they launched the Symbian^3/N8.

                Now they are gaining unit sales just like they did at that time, so everyone should be happy about how Nokia is getting more sales compared to the Apple when they launched the iPhone.

                • Noki

                  So, when did Nokia’s WP sales decrease YoY? ???? are you kidding??? just last quarter it did.

                  If you do the math per terminal you will see that wp sales have been going overall down since its introduction.

                  • Janne

                    Spede’s comment is a bit disingenious since Nokia’s Lumia sales can not have decreased YoY, because Nokia has not sold Lumias for full quarters for two consecutive years yet. 🙂 They will have after Q4/2012 of course.

                    Noki must mean Nokia’s WP sales decreased for the first time QoQ in Q3/2012 of course.

                    • Spede oli aliarvostettu

                      Yes, even the iPhone has seen decreasing sales QoQ. It’s not very smart to look only QoQ because on most cases that tells us nothing.

                      We will see if Nokia has managed to get more sales YoY in January. If Nokia sold over one million Lumia phones in Q4 2012, they had more sales YoY.

                    • Noki

                      “If Nokia sold over one million Lumia phones in Q4 2012, they had more sales YoY.” If you compare per terminal no! to do that it would have to sell 8 Million, number that I BTW consider the absolute minimum, for this to make any sense what so ever, (not that 8 million would be good or even ok)

      • dss

        Symbian would’ve been even more competitive…

        • pathetic

          symbian is not the future, meego was the future , why ? is simple , meego is the closest thing to symbian , all nokia fans wanted a fluid symbian that is what is meego, Now it’s too late nokia did everything wrong, wp is the opposite of symbian, let’s put a very graphic example, ozzy Osbourn decides one day singing the songs of justin bieber what do you think ozzy osbourne fans say ? Nokia sold like a whore , here are the results , Nokia is on the verge of extinction , nokia needs a change

          • dss

            I was talking about the low end… until hardware got cheap enough to support Linux in the low end.

  • We all know why but still it feels a bit weird that Nokia is not doing a few Android based phones. Now it’s probably too late as the massive Symbian market share is gone and replaced by Android but still makes you wonder who’s the puppet master here … 🙂

    • Janne

      Well, hardly any of the Android manufacturers (except Samsung) are making big bucks on Android, so it is not a guarantee of success by any means.

      But of course, going Android might have worked, sticking to MeeGo might have worked too.

      • Noki

        trying more than 1? see witch one sold better?

        And not pissing off most of your biggest fan base, by entering into a deal that ment that everything had to be terminated…

        • Janne

          Yes, especially pissing off the fanbase was a mistake Nokia is still reeling from. The badwill Feburary 11th caused could and should have been avoided. It was too abrupt.

          • tom

            Ditching the fan base is something they will pay big and have been paying. Apple would be dead without the fanbase long back. Most of Nokia fanbase/users do not like WP. You can argue otherwise but looking at sales and conversion from Symbian to WP, it’s pretty much self explanatory. On the other side of equation, consumer do not like anything MS. MS has been milking corporate and monopoly market. You can say xbox, but after about a decade, MS has lost money on it overall(it’s profitable now, about 300 million a year).

            • Noki

              and in Xbox they did the smart thing that was to remove most of the Microsoft brand and all of the windows branding, plus Microsoft is all not that unpopular in the gaming community.

  • Sonny

    Windows phone alone wont save Nokia. They need as much as symbian and asha phones aswell. Wheter it be high end or low end ones

    • keist

      Nokia needs Android. Nobody wants Symbian back.

      And Apple is not declining. How can you say a company that can sell sell 2 million of a phone in just 3 days in China alone, and 8 million tablets in just 3 months declining? The iPhone 5 and the iPad Mini is the current best-selling smartphone and tablet respectively. Apple sells an average 30 million iPhones and 15 million iPads per quarter.

      • Spede oli aliarvostettu

        Apple is hardly declining.

        Although it would be fun to see the iPhone sales plummet a bit. That would really spice up the market.

        Apple still has the option to open up the closed software distribution system they are using. That’s one option they have.

        They have to deliver quality products because crap just doesn’t sell even if it has Apple printed on it.

        Nokia was once huge and they dominated the smartphones. Then they started to make crappy products to protect the market share and figured out that declining ASP just doesn’t matter because everyone has the same problem.

        Nokia was always very prod of the market share. Not that much about unit sales. Funny how few Nokia fans remember how it was.

  • stylinred

    lol windows phone

  • redmateria

    where is smarterphone os? do you think asha touch is smarterphone??

    • krishna6233

      nokia calls advertises it as smartphone in india!! though the phone looks good for the price the ads re terrible 🙁

  • sinple

    Nokia need a asha with better camera and hotspot function.

    • Ekeluo

      With dual-SIM and a 1500 MaH+ battery so it can go for days. Optionally, a 480×270 or even nHD screen, and even a swipe multitasking ability, and I see a future for me in s40 asha as a capable assistant to my (yet to be acquired) 808/Samsung galaxy premier. No love for WP locked everything.

      • BS


  • Francis

    IMO, with almost zero grow during this holiday peak seasons, WP now is consider as “Burning Platform” for Nokia. It is too slow for Nokia such giant company.

    Except some pro-WP & Nokia bloggers “creating” feel good news for WP, in reality the WP sale may be very low. In this year, i only saw 2 persons using WP.

    Nokia is running out of time. Positive impact due selling of property, lay-off staffs and closing factory will be no more seen in coming 2013, the sustainability of Nokia due to low volume sale of smartphone will be surfaced soon.

    We just pray for some miracle for Nokia.

  • Ebirah

    Go Symbian! Still think they should continue with it & move it to the Asha line if at all possible. There is much debate over whether Asha is a smartphone or not so might as well stick Symbian in the their top tier touch phones and call it a day.

  • BlazinEmperor

    Last time I checked, Nokia Belle/Belle Fp2 phones ain’t cheap, unless u’re referring to Nokia 500 & older S60v5 phones… Nokia 701 is selling pretty well here in Nigeria, & it’s price has been stagnant for a long time, for about $320 unlocked, even it’s smaller sibling (Nokia 700) goes for almost the same amount. Lumia phones are very cheap over here, especially Lumia 800, but people prefer the 701 because it’s more flexible to use. BT Transfer alone can’t save Wp7.5 lumias & the steep price of Lumia 820 is another show stopper. I think Nokia Belle will linger for a while even after the demise of WP7.8 Lumias, unless nokia decides to stop manufacturing Belle phones.

    • Ekeluo

      If the ‘nice people’ now in Nokia haven’t stopped manufacturing them already. Like lemmings, they are.

      • viktor von d.

        don’t think they stopped manufacturing them. i still see nokia e6 in shops here along with 700 and 500, c5 and it’s variants.they are pretty popular wit people who don’t give a damn about smartphones, and internet related things.

        in my country nokia is the second manufacurer in terms of sales behind samsung. android has a 40% marketshare(samsung had the largest pie here) and symbian has 25% in second place.

        most of the people use free apps(only 12 percent buy apps), and then only messaging apps, email apps and games are downloaded.on top of that 90% of all mobile web traffic is done via wi-fi. so people here defintely use symbisn handsets and i guess nokia is till making them

  • Patata

    wow, almost 0.002% daily growth for wp? We got a true winner here. Who cares about the fact that its far behind S40s and even Symbian’s daily growth? /s

    • dss

      Relax. The US and the Chinese market will add some numbers to the game.. it doesn’t mean that Nokia will be fine, but I am pretty sure that Microsoft’s strategy will be.

  • JGrove303

    Wow, like, every Lumia Hater came out for this one! Geez.

    It’s well known Lumia is a bigger name than WP or even Nokia at this point. It is unfortunate that supply hasn’t kept up with demand, as there surely would have been a lot more growth. I say it that way, because no one gives a crap about the HTC 8x. 8s, Ativ S just released, so it would seem Q1 results may be better, especially when the 620 drops!

    I think it’s awesome that Symbian and Asha sales/use is on the rise. Both are great, feature packed OSs paired to great devices. Hell, had Symbian got support for 800×480 on 4″ screens, I’d probably still be on Symbian as my main device. Well, that and developer support.

  • dss

    The only reason Symbian shows more on those stats its the better browser… there are still a lot of Symbian phones out there, if they all used the native Nokia browser, and not Opera Mobile, it will seem the market share is growing, when in reality.. its not.

  • migo

    That is somewhat weird. I wonder if that’s a percentage of total marketshare or a percentage of previous marketshare? Apple’s decrease could be because they’re in more of a holding pattern where the churn is keeping their overall sales constant.

  • dss

    Sammy expects to sell around 350 million smartphones next year…

    Going by the number Nokia is showing.. 3-4 m/quarter … not even close to be any competition to Samsung.

  • rwtertwret

    Symbian grows more then WP, two years after it was killed. Rest in peace, Nokia.

    • dss

      Its not growing… these are old Symbian that are starting to show because of the improved browsers. I stoped using opera mobile after Fp1 … and they also made some improvements for s60v5

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